Developers Publicly Criticze Nvidia's GameWorks Program on Twitter For Its "BlackBox" Nature.

[TechFan@ic]

This is somewhat of a follow-up to Extremetech's previous coverage of Nvidia's GameWorks program .

To those who don't know GameWorks is an Nvidia program by which developers are offered Nvidia optimized implementations for specific in-game effects through graphics libraries.

The effects include things like Tessellation, lighting & ambient occlusion. And these libraries are effectively "blackboxes" by which the developers are prohibited not only from optimizing these libraries for AMD or Intel GPUs but also from allowing any vendor other than Nvidia to implement its own optimizations or rendering techniques.

 

A number of prominent developers have criticized Nvidia's GameWorks program describing it as a "BlackBox" and some went as far as to call it "unusable" where developer control over the game's code has been stripped & hidden away from them and only given back under strict circumstances by which no modifications are allowed to benefit the hardware of any company except Nvidia.
 

 Johann Andersson said :

"Nvidia has lost huge amount of respect w/ the unusable black box GameWorks"

 

The list of developers include Kostas Anagnostou the Senior graphics programmer at Radiant Worlds, John W Kloetzli, Jr a graphics programmer on the Civilization team at Firaxis Games, AngeloPesce a Rendering Technical Director & Johan Andersson the Technical Director on Frostbite at Electronic Arts.


http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18592187

SOURCE

 

[qwertywarrior]

wow i was completely ignorant of this

[Lukiose]

'Pay $$$ to fill game with cool 'features' when they are actually trying to hijack the game to make it bad for competitors, bullshit!'

Shit son, hearing that from a developer himself sure sounds like burn

 

Edit: Thanks for the update with more pics, makes even more sense now.

[jscho]

Ouch, I wasn't aware that Nvidia's optimisation program was so closed. That's fucking stupid of Nvidia.

 

[rhyseyness]

So how is this different to mantle?

[GRJohn]

Nvidia users like me hear about Mantle everywhere but we have to wait until the end of 2015 to get something equivalent(in reality to get Mantle with a name that Nvidia accepts, DIRECTX12).

But before DX12 we are going to see more than a dozen top titles with Mantle support. So Nvidia started these two programs one of which is a marketing campaign about a "Wonder" driver promising to give almost Mantle performance in setups with Nvidia cards under DX11 the other program is GameWorks to effectively lock AMD out from any game Nvidia manages to infect with these blackbox libraries.

 

The whole idea was to make us feel better about their hardware.

This marketing comedy is going to continue in my opinion at least until DX12 comes out.

Typical driver updates are going to be marketed as the second coming and typical game optimizations that give performance gains in specific games and/or under specific circumstances, things that we are all used to, as something never seen before, worst as a proof that DX11 is "better" than Mantle.

 

And of course all these slides about the new drivers will use a 12 threads Intel cpu monster to prove that cpu bottlenecks are easily bypassed (LOL) with clever programming and without the need of another API(that's until DX12 comes out. At that time marketing will do a U turn and will start telling us how important is the new API is.

[TechFan@ic]

So how is this different to mantle?

From my original coverage of the Extremetech article :

In the end one might wonder how is this different from what AMD has done with their gaming evolved partners and/or Mantle.   

                                                                       

The answer is very different, a quick example would be TressFX AMD's physics rendering technology for hair, when the technology was first launched with Tomb Raider AMD hardware enjoyed a performance advantage over equivalent Nvidia hardware well into the double digit percentages.

But not long after launch Nvidia managed to close the performance gap to the point where now both companies are roughly on equal footing, that's because AMD's libraries were open to Nvidia to analyze and improve performance, similarly Mantle is open for Nvidia to implement its own libraries in as it sees fit.

 

Had AMD closed the libraries for its own technologies in Tomb Raider like TressFX, Ambient Occlusion (HDAO) and so on Nvidia users would've still struggled with performance issues today.

[Lukiose]

Nvidia users like me hear about Mantle everywhere but we have to wait until the end of 2015 to get something equivalent(in reality to get Mantle with a name that Nvidia accepts, DIRECTX12).

But before DX12 we are going to see more than a dozen top titles with Mantle support. So Nvidia started these two programs one of which is a marketing campaign about a "Wonder" driver promising to give almost Mantle performance in setups with Nvidia cards under DX11 the other program is GameWorks to effectively lock AMD out from any game Nvidia manages to infect with these blackbox libraries.

 

The whole idea was to make us feel better about their hardware.

This marketing comedy is going to continue in my opinion at least until DX12 comes out.

Typical driver updates are going to be marketed as the second coming and typical game optimizations that give performance gains in specific games and/or under specific circumstances, things that we are all used to, as something never seen before, worst as a proof that DX11 is "better" than Mantle.

 

And of course all these slides about the new drivers will use a 12 threads Intel cpu monster to prove that cpu bottlenecks are easily bypassed (LOL) with clever programming and without the need of another API(that's until DX12 comes out. At that time marketing will do a U turn and will start telling us how important is the new API is.

So with this whole GameWorks program shenanigans nVidia is actually trying to disallow us[Consumers] from reaping Mantle benefits because they aren't willing to use it for themselves despite it being open source(Or at least, they will analyze it and use it for their own competitive benefit in the name of "introducing a powerful API, not Mantle") , but rather continue with DX12.. All the while trying to 'prove' DX11 > Mantle because of how their program let them lock out devs for proper optimization of Mantle...

Fucking Bastards (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻  , as much as i try not to be biased in any way, nVidia is doing all sorts of bullshit that makes me root for AMD. Fuck you nVidia in the name of all consumers, seriously. I know competition is tough, but i'd rather a company with morals than pure profit, especially when profit is gained at the expense of the consumers, not just competitors. That's like, doubly dirty.

[Whiskers]

That's quite disappointing.

[rhyseyness]

From my original coverage of the Extremetech article :

Fair enough, I couldn't read the full article as I'm at work.

Thanks!

[TechFan@ic]

Fair enough, I couldn't read the full article as I'm at work.

Thanks!

Perfectly understandable, you're quite welcome.

[Dragonzeanse]

Someone remind me why fanboys still exist. Oh right, $500 is a lot of money to spend on a video card.

[ACatWithThumbs]

Most of the stuff in gameworks is over PhysX/Apex/Flex.
So of course it's closed down.
Also the only thing that is closed down is GPU physics calculations.

 

[xAcid9]

Most of the stuff in gameworks is over PhysX/Apex/Flex.

So of course it's closed down.

Also the only thing that is closed down is GPU physics calculations.

 

 

Any source for that claim?

[ACatWithThumbs]

Any source for that claim?

https://developer.nvidia.com/content/introducing-nvidia-gameworks

If you look down you can see that almost all gamework software is based on PhysX.

Hair/fur/cloth/water/destruction/particle is all based on PhysX.

The only thing that isn't are stuff like faceworks/GI works/camera works.

And those are things that are already in most engines.

 

[TechFan@ic]

So with this whole GameWorks program shenanigans nVidia is actually trying to disallow us[Consumers] from reaping Mantle benefits because they aren't willing to use it for themselves despite it being open source(Or at least, they will analyze it and use it for their own competitive benefit in the name of "introducing a powerful API, not Mantle") , but rather continue with DX12.. All the while trying to 'prove' DX11 > Mantle because of how their program let them lock out devs for proper optimization of Mantle...

Fucking Bastards (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻  , as much as i try not to be biased in any way nVidia is doing all sorts of bullshit that makes me root for AMD. Fuck you nVidia in the name of all consumers, seriously. I know competition is tough, but i'd rather a company with morals than pure profit.

Well some would argue that Nvidia created these libraries and thus has the right to do with these libraries as it pleases. This includes locking out any competing hardware from effectively using these libraries.

And normally I would agree only had no viable alternatives existed but that's not the case here. DX11 has native support for tessellation and ambient lighting AMD also has its own implementations of both technologies as well as global illumination. In fact AMD was first to demonstrate global illumination in-game (Dirt Showdown) despite Nvidia falsely claiming to be the first vendor to do that.

So all the effects offered to developers by the GameWorks program (outside of PhysX) already exist and are widely available. Making it a corporate program to limit its competition more than anything else.

[EmmaLong]

Most of the stuff in gameworks is over PhysX/Apex/Flex.

So of course it's closed down.

Also the only thing that is closed down is GPU physics calculations.

Read the article http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/173511-nvidias-gameworks-program-usurps-power-from-developers-end-users-and-amd

Nvidia isn't just locking out PhysX but basic things like shadows, ambient occlusion and lighting all of which are part of the GameWorks "blackbox" libraries.

[ACatWithThumbs]

Read the article http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/173511-nvidias-gameworks-program-usurps-power-from-developers-end-users-and-amd

Nvidia isn't just locking out PhysX but basic things like shadows, ambient occlusion and lighting all of which are part of the GameWorks "blackbox" libraries.

Yes, but nobody needs to use those things.

Fading soft shadows are standard with DX11 since 2009 and almost every engine today can do it.

SSAA/HBAO/HDAO is also in almost every game only HBAO+ is locked down which is just an enhanced version.

And Global Illumination is also in almost every game engine.

 

[Lukiose]

Well some would argue that Nvidia created these libraries and thus has the right to do with these libraries as it pleases. This includes locking out any competing hardware from effectively using these libraries.

And normally I would agree only had no viable alternatives existed but that's not the case here. DX11 has native support for tessellation and ambient lighting AMD also has its own implementations of both technologies as well as global illumination. In fact AMD was first to demonstrate global illumination in-game (Dirt Showdown) despite Nvidia falsely claiming to be the first vendor to do that.

So all the effects offered to developers by the GameWorks program (outside of PhysX) already exist and are widely available. Making it a corporate program to limit its competition more than anything else.

Thanks for the note, i didn't even know AMD came up with Global Illumination first  :blink:  first i saw of it was during the nVidia conference claiming it as their own new technology.. shows you how powerful marketing trickery can be

[EmmaLong]

Yes, but nobody needs to use those things.

Fading soft shadows are standard with DX11 since 2009 and almost every engine today can do it.

SSAA/HBAO/HDAO is also in almost every game only HBAO+ is locked down which is just an enhanced version.

And Global Illumination is also in almost every game engine.

That's exactly my point Nvidia's locking basic effects which are ALREADY available in most games. Just to give its hardware an advantage which shouldn't exist in the first place.

[ACatWithThumbs]

That's exactly my point Nvidia's locking basic effects which are ALREADY available in most games. Just to give its hardware an advantage which shouldn't exist in the first place.

And where is the big deal?

You can just use something else instead.

 

[dragosudeki]

Nvidia must be losing their minds this quarter. Probably because FreeSync is now a standard which breaks the points of their GSync and Mantle is actually being used until DirectX12 and seeing all of AMD's cards sold out due to cryptocurrencies...

[ACatWithThumbs]

Nvidia must be losing their minds this quarter. Probably because FreeSync is now a standard which breaks the points of their GSync and Mantle is actually being used until DirectX12 and seeing all of AMD's cards sold out due to cryptocurrencies...

They are selling a Dual GPU for $3000.(3 Years ago a dual GPU was $599)

I don't think they have any problems.

If they wanted they could just release Maxwell.

[GamerDude]

Now you guys know why I prefer AMD over nVidia, I'd read about their BS Gameworks program a while back and was stunned. Also, I find it strange that whenever something negative about nVidia comes up (I don't think Gameworks can be defended in any way, shape or form), yet you'll find some diehard nV guy defending it to the death. <_<  *looks at poster above* 

[Victorious Secret]

All you fanboys are so amusing. 

 

I guess you needed to justify spending 500 or more on a pile of plastic and metal somehow...