7°C Cooler? This must be a scam

[AlexTheGreatish]

GoChiller created graphene coolant they claim is 60% more thermally conductive than water... but in our experience these things rarely live up to the hype.

 

Check out GoChiller: https://gochiller.com/

 

 

 

[Skiiwee29]

Is there any plans to do long term testing to see how it holds up or if it clogs the loop at all? Seems very suspicious to me given the history of Nano particle fluids in open loops. 

[AlexTheGreatish]

4 minutes ago, Skiiwee29 said:

Is there any plans to do long term testing to see how it holds up or if it clogs the loop at all? Seems very suspicious to me given the history of Nano particle fluids in open loops. 

It's staying in that EK system and getting used in other videos, so we'll see how it holds up over time.

[Velcade]

What sort of rheology modifiers are added to the suspension to keep the graphene from falling out of solution?  

 

If you've got any leftover throw it in a test tube in an oven at 80'C for a few days.  I imagine all that graphene will settle. 

[swimtome]

Alex: What are the odds of me not getting stained this video.

Also Alex: Well with 2/10 I guess I'll agitate the liquid with a drill

[For Science!]

I think the thermal conductivity of the coolant itself is not a important factor in reality as you don’t really depend on it to move the heat around in the system as the pump does that. Coolant identity whether it be water, ethylene glycol, Mercury, or this makes minimal impact as you aren’t addressing the two major bottlenecks: getting the heat into the ambient air, and getting the heat out of the die.

[Skiiwee29]

5 minutes ago, Velcade said:

What sort of rheology modifiers are added to the suspension to keep the graphene from falling out of solution?  

 

If you've got any leftover throw it in a test tube in an oven at 80'C for a few days.  I imagine all that graphene will settle. 

Thats kind of unrealistic honestly, most open loops won't see temps higher than 40-45c for the liquid. 

[Velcade]

Just now, Skiiwee29 said:

Thats kind of unrealistic honestly, most open loops won't see temps higher than 40-45c for the liquid. 

Then throw it in at 45'C for a few years.

[Nystemy]

1 minute ago, Skiiwee29 said:

Thats kind of unrealistic honestly, most open loops won't see temps higher than 40-45c for the liquid. 

They were likely more getting at the fact that a suspension can fall out faster at a higher temperature. _{(this is however not always the case, depends on the substance being suspended, and the media it is suspended in.)}

 

Another much more common way to make suspensions drop out is through the use of a centrifuge.

[Skiiwee29]

2 minutes ago, Nystemy said:

They were likely more getting at the fact that a suspension can fall out faster at a higher temperature. _{(this is however not always the case, depends on the substance being suspended, and the media it is suspended in.)}

 

Another much more common way to make suspensions drop out is through the use of a centrifuge.

I get that, but subjecting it to unrealistic temps from what it would see in normal use its designed for would be a poor test to see if it falls out or not. Since its intended for cooling in this instance for a CPU and/or GPU loop, 80c would be unrealistic and would not provide accurate results if say the suspension mechanism is rated for say 50 or 60c before it becomes unstable. 

[Velcade]

 

1 minute ago, Skiiwee29 said:

I get that, but subjecting it to unrealistic temps from what it would see in normal use its designed for would be a poor test to see if it falls out or not.

Accelerated aging is very common and not disingenuous to the process.  

[Skiiwee29]

1 minute ago, Velcade said:

 

Accelerated aging is very common and not disingenuous to the process.  

but what we don't know is the rated temps the suspension agent is rated for? Maybe its like 50 or 60c, 80c would be outside its limit and would absolutely then cause problems. Variables we don't know or have access to since its likely a trade secret. 

[Nystemy]

To be fair here. Water is not an all that great thermal conductor _{(at only 0.6 W/mK)}, but it has a lot of thermal mass. _{(at 4200 J/kg, surprisingly high compared to most other materials that are lower.)}

 

The thing that makes water a lot lot better as a coolant is turbulence within the liquid. Since turbulence makes the water near the surface exchange for new water that is further away from a surface. And honestly speaking, it is fairly hard to not have some degree of turbulence within a system, but also surprisingly easy as well.

 

The same story applies for air, it too is having lackluster thermal conductivity. But add some turbulence and things tends to get better, to a point. _{(since air has a lot less thermal mass, about 1kJ/kg (or about 1kJ/m^3, ie not a lot) so it will fairly quickly get saturated for a given delta.)}

 

To be fair here, I suspect that there can be larger thermal improvements from just taking a fine cutting wheel and very gently make some diagonal cuts in a regular skived water cooler's fins, as to make the flow of water more turbulent instead of laminar. _{(the flow of a liquid will generally start out turbulent as it enters a new geometry, but as it ventures down the fin without any changes in geometry, then it will get progressively more and more laminar. The length needed for it to get laminar is generally effected by the aspect ratio of the length in comparison to the feature. Adding in new geometry changes, especially at odd angles, would increase the turbulence. But the interface could already be "saturated" and in that case more cooling would therefor not be expected. (And yes, this is a great oversimplification.))}

 

In regards to additives in water to increase its conductance, it is an interesting topic. But to be fair here, water cooling is in a lot of cases already rather great as is. Adding a second radiator is likely a better move, since air is likely the bottleneck regardless.

[AnonymousGuy]

Is this the same stuff as Mayhems XTR: https://www.performance-pcs.com/water-cooling/watercooling-fluids/mayhems-xtr-nano-tech-premixed-coolant-1-litre-uv-blue.html 

 

@mayhems hangs out here occasionally.   And says their nano fluid should never settle out and be immune to filtering effects of microfins and whatnot, but I haven't gotten around to testing it.   I think there's also a requirement that a loop be fully cleaned out before installing and good luck doing that in my desktop.  And it's $45 a liter.

[Nystemy]

46 minutes ago, Skiiwee29 said:

but what we don't know is the rated temps the suspension agent is rated for? Maybe its like 50 or 60c, 80c would be outside its limit and would absolutely then cause problems. Variables we don't know or have access to since its likely a trade secret. 

The rated temperature of a material is picked from an aging curve, based on higher temperature tests. A typical "rated" temperature of a material might see it last for 5 years. In other cases, it can be 1 year or 50, it depends on the requirements of the application that the rated temperature is quoted for. _{(and this confuses new engineers for years before they realize that there is actually no such thing as a "rated temperature" unless one states an expected life time at the temperature. (but typically 5-10 years is a "de facto"))}

 

There is however a given temperature _{(and pressure)} where a material either changes phase, or becomes unstable. The aging of a material is generally increasing exponentially as we approach its max short term stable temperature. _{(There is also effects to consider when going to colder temps, not to mention changes in pressure, but lets not take a complete deep dive into material science. (I promise, I can go on for hours...))} A rule of thumb is generally that a given chemical reaction will be about half as fast for every 10 degree C delta bellow our short term stable temp. _{(Or bellow the "rated temperature". (Though, some people might say that heating an 85C rated cap to 90-100C doesn't make it explode, but the 85C rating is also having an MTBF value associated with it, ie, the all important expected life time I mentioned at the beginning.))}

 

For an example, a lot of plastics can take 150-200 C without major degradation, for a couple of seconds.

But can't last a year at 100C. (Thermoplastics however soften as they approach their melting point, so here the long term aging is generally more about retention of physical dimensions than the chemical stability of the material.)

 

Then there is also the fact that a material isn't having "a" temperature, it is rather an average of the amount of thermal energy within the material. At a local point the temperature fluctuates quite a bit. This is for an example why water can evaporate off a surface, even if the surface overall is well bellow freezing. And this plays a role in aging of materials, since locally, some parts of the structure is indeed above its stable temperature, even if the object overall is far away from it.

 

In short, a material that tends to work fine at 60C will in most cases be the same at 80C, just aging about 4x faster.

 

Unless there is any phase changes or if the material has some other point of instability. But as we cross over the stable temperature of a material, these effects tends to show themselves in a matter of seconds or minutes. Ie, if the material lasts just fine at 70C for hours. But goes pop the second one heats it to 75C, then we aren't really talking about aging at this point. And here you are correct.

 

But if no such relatively sudden changes in material properties is observed, then we can assume that it is just aging at a faster pace. _{(Now, actual testing would have a lot of samples, and a lot of logging, tedious, and boring is a good summation of the process.)}

 

But I should end with saying that I am oversimplifying material science here, there is actually a lot more to consider for a proper test.

 

And for suspensions, a centrifuge is generally a more common method of getting things to settle. _{(a centrifuge simulates an increased gravity. So a suspension will settle quicker. Also, suspensions aren't solutions, ie they will settle to the bottom (or top if lighter than the surrounding medium) if left undisturbed for long enough, otherwise it is generally a solution.)}

[tkitch]

42 minutes ago, AnonymousGuy said:

Is this the same stuff as Mayhems XTR: https://www.performance-pcs.com/water-cooling/watercooling-fluids/mayhems-xtr-nano-tech-premixed-coolant-1-litre-uv-blue.html 

 

@mayhems hangs out here occasionally.   And says their nano fluid should never settle out and be immune to filtering effects of microfins and whatnot, but I haven't gotten around to testing it.   I think there's also a requirement that a loop be fully cleaned out before installing and good luck doing that in my desktop.  And it's $45 a liter.

it doesn't mention graphene, so I doubt it's the same material.

Graphene is a big buzz word, so there'd be no reason to NOT use the word if you were using that material

 

[GodAtum]

I bought this not to put in my PC, but to drink. I seemed to have gained superpowers!

[Nystemy]

6 minutes ago, tkitch said:

it doesn't mention graphene, so I doubt it's the same material.

Graphene is a big buzz word, so there'd be no reason to NOT use the word if you were using that material

 

Pencil manufacturers have used vertically stacked graphene sheets for centuries without including it in their marketing! _{(this is a joke, but graphite is stacked layers of graphene, so it is actually true.)}

[RejZoR]

The issue with testing methodology is the fan speed. Just like with fan tests, just running them at 100% hardly makes any difference. Even between best fans and worst fans you'll see minor differences.

 

However, running best fans at lets say 50% speed or 25% speed, you'll have huge gains compared to crappy ones. And I think this is the case here. This test should also be done at lower fan speeds. My guess is we'd see larger gains there. Meaning your system could run quieter while being cooled the same.

 

[Guest]

this put me right to sleep thank you 

[AnonymousGuy]

12 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

The issue with testing methodology is the fan speed. Just like with fan tests, just running them at 100% hardly makes any difference. Even between best fans and worst fans you'll see minor differences.

 

However, running best fans at lets say 50% speed or 25% speed, you'll have huge gains compared to crappy ones. And I think this is the case here. This test should also be done at lower fan speeds. My guess is we'd see larger gains there. Meaning your system could run quieter while being cooled the same.

 

Wouldn't affect the outcome I don't think.  Slowing down the fans is just making the conductivity between the fins and the air worse, improving the fluid is still only affecting the conductivity between the fluid and itself and the fluid and the radiator channels which is already huge surface area.

 

Take it to an extreme: let's say the fluid was infinite thermal conductivity.  It's not like you would suddenly be able to have zero fan speed and still get heat out.

[Radium_Angel]

11 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

My guess is we'd see larger gains there

This is the interesting key...to test the manuf claims, one must first ensure one's methodology is sound. Regardless of the outcome, coming up with the proper testing environment is the fun part.

[sub68]

I am noticing alex is using a PS4 controller to advance the teleprompter.

[Luscious]

This needs long term testing to truly know if it's any good or not. The problem with any dyed piss or liquid with "particles" in it is that it WILL break down over time, discolor, leave residue on the inner surface of your tubing and clog up your blocks.

 

I'm probably the best long term EK tester out there LOL. That's not bragging - my system has been online running 24/7 for 5+ years now and the EK EVO CLEAR concentrate fluid I am using has not shown ANY signs of problems (the blocks look like brand new). I mix the concentrate myself very precisely with quality distilled water. Buying concentrate in tiny bottles is cheaper/easier to ship and also has a longer shelf life as opposed to the premix stuff.

 

As for performance, my ambient temps regularly hit 30C and on the hottest summer days can reach 35C. You would have NO CHANCE running any air-cooled PC, especially ones that already push the limits in a 20C room. That said, my liquid temps hover between 42-50C and rarely go higher - the hottest I've seen my liquid get is 52C and that's with four GPU's doing F@H. My fans run on a temperature curve based not on CPU, GPU, RAM, VRM, or PCH temps but on the liquid temps, that way they can ramp up from a load coming from either source but also from increased room temps. That moving air cools down everything.

 

SO MANY PEOPLE FORGET THIS, but monitoring liquid temps is important because your pump has a limit to how hot water it can work with - go beyond that and you can definitely damage your pump and experience pump failure. My D5 has an upper limit of 60C so even at 55C liquid temps I am totally safe. DDC pumps and those used in AIO's most likely WON'T be so forgiving! The o-rings on your fittings are another point where too high water temps can compromise their integrity and result in leaks. That's why it's critical to not only know your water temps, but size your rads and how many rads/fans you have so that you don't overload your pump and stress those seals.

 

Because I have push/pull fans and rock 5 huge-ass radiators my deltas fall around 20C. As an example, with 3 of my GPU's folding and the room at a balmy 28C my liquid temp sits at 45C, the three GPU's between 50-53C, my 5960X CPU at 30% load it's 8 cores between 50-60C and the fans spinning quietly between 50-60% of their max RPM. And as the temperature rises that delta gets lower - I have seen 19C deltas on a 35C ambient with none of the components going over 55C. When done right water is an AMAZING heat transfer medium. Granted, I also have close to a full gallon of the stuff circulating inside my loop.

[HenrySalayne]

@AlexTheGreatish
"their anti-foaming agent sucks"

 

Maybe not. Maybe it would be much worse without it. Graphene isn't known for being easily suspended in water.