Firefox users down 50 million since 2018

[RejZoR]

32 minutes ago, divito said:

They're just utilizing the base though. Plenty of Chromium-based browsers are actually implementing interesting and useable features that don't exist in other browsers. Just because they're using the codebase doesn't mean they're stopping at the basics. It simply allows them to use a tried-and-tested base that's fast and stable, and put their own ideas and spin onto it.
 

That's like saying people using the Unreal Engine are just making Unreal clones when they make their own game. It's just the base and platform to develop their own things onto.

In games you're not competing for the market share. If your game is interesting enough, anyone will buy it, unless you're doing a clone of already proven concept in which case you're essentially doing a clone of Chrome.

[LAwLz]

11 hours ago, RejZoR said:

I wrote something about Firefox... It's too long and detailed to write it again so here it is.

https://rejzor.wordpress.com/2021/08/21/why-firefox-is-still-a-great-browser-in-2021/

 

I don't know or care about developer perspective, but this is pure user perspective. It has things other browsers don't and that makes it a better option if you care about browser serving you and not the other way around.

Oh come on. That post is a load of bollocks. If you have to list "it's not as fast but I think it feels fast enough" as a reason to use it then you have pretty weak arguments.

It's like saying people should use an i3 because you don't think it feels any faster than an i9. While that might be true, why recommend something that performs worse? 

Also, your post is very light on details and facts and seems to mostly be about what you feel. Firefox according to you FEELS as fast as other browsers despite benchmarks saying otherwise. You FEEL like addons in Firefox are better and more polished but doesn't mention a single one in your post.

You FEEL like syncing in other browsers is unreliable but doesn't explain why or give any evidence of it being the case.

When you describe issues with other browsers such as Vivaldi's bookmarks you just say things like "it didn't obey what I wanted" without explaining what you want or how Vivaldi didn't work that way.

 

It feels like the entire post is someone suffering very heavily from baby duck syndrome.

 

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Super customizable interface

I've switched from Firefox to Edge and I do miss some UI customization. My Edger UI is like 95% the same as my Firefox UI was though so it's not that big of a deal. 

I think you missed the opportunity to show off userChrome.css when talking about customization. But the fact of the matter is that people don't really care. The UI of Chrome, Edge, Brave, etc, are the way they are because that's what most people prefer.

More options are of course better, but I think you're putting a lot of worth on something barely anyone cares about. 

 

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Better extensions

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They just work better and have less of dumb restrictions as well as just not being so hungry on the memory.

Citation Needed. I got a feeling this is something you just pulled out of your bum.

 

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And what I like the most, it’s up to YOU if you want them to be visible or not in toolbars and where you want to have them exactly.

This feels like it should fall under the "super customizable interface" point you mentioned earlier. Like half of the text about how addons are better in Firefox was about how you can move the addon button around... You're not exactly making a great argument for why they are better.

 

You're right that some addons, uBlock being a notable one, works better in Firefox than in Chrome though. But I got a feeling most people who parrot the "ublock works best in Firefox so therefore Firefox is superior" doesn't actually know the technical details about why it works differently or why it matters/don't matter.

 

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Super portable

There are portable versions of for example Chrome too...

Your only point here is that you can easily update it, but the same can be said for portable Chrome. You just download the paf.exe file and run it, and it will update Chrome and keep all your settings. I mean listen to yourself, you say other browsers are clunky in how they work when used in portable mode and then goes on to say in the next sentence that you can download installer files from a Mozilla FTP server, extract them and then copy/paste them into your portable Firefox install to update. If that's not "super clumsy and really annoying to maintain" then I don't know what is.

 

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Reliable sync across all devices

Not sure what to say here. Seems like you've had some issue with syncing in the past that you don't really describe in detail and just goes "therefore Firefox is the best". I haven't had problems with syncing between my phone and mobile when I tried it. 

 

 

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Very flexible bookmarks

While we all take bookmarks for granted these days, there is still an issue with how most browsers want to shove all the bookmarks in your face and only allow you to have them fully visible. All of them. 

Chromium browsers have two separate "folders" for bookmarks. The favorite bar, and "other bookmarks". 

Bookmarks in the "favorite bar" folder appears in the bookmark bar. Bookmarks in the "other bookmarks" folder are hidden.

Within these two categories you can just create folders and be able to categorize things however you want. It might not be 100% exactly the same as what you are used to, but it should be able to achieve what you want.

 

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Custom keyword searches and syncing of keywords and search engines

This is not a Firefox specific feature. Chromium browsers has it too.

 

Also, the option to sync search engines has existed in Chrome since 2011. 

It might not work if you use some browser that uses a different sync system though.

 

 

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Super customizable and tweakable

-snip-

Chrome based browsers also have a similar thing under about:flags, but the stuff there is next to useless as it’s just bunch of very gimmicky settings that don’t really affect much of anything. In Firefox however, you can change some pretty dramatic things with it.

-snip-

Want to enable experimental features like new rendering engines or multi-process subsystems before they are officially supported? You can do that.

That's the same type of things you will find under the flags menu in Chrome...

Toggle hardware or software rendering, enabling/disabling experimental things like QUIC, change things related to WebAssembly, etc. Do you want a different backend for your graphics abstraction layer? You can change that too in chrome://flags if you want. Want your browser to ask before it closes multiple tabs? You can do that too in chrome://flags

 

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Powerful Tracking Protection built-in

You're using a lot of vague terms again... Also, a lot of Chromium based browsers has built in tracking protection too. 

 

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Performance

Like I said earlier "yeah it's slower in benchmarks but I can't tell a difference when I did my test" is not exactly a great selling point for Firefox.

 

 

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This isn’t [...] me being a fanboy of Firefox.

-snip-

I despise Chrome even more and I can’t wrap my head around the fact it has like 80% market share. It’s the dumbest, most locked down and useless browser I’ve seen in my life

If you don't think your post is the ramblings of a fanboy when I think you need to take a good hard look in the mirror, because you sound exactly like one.

[AnonymousGuy]

Firefox commit suicide when they decided to change their extension framework to break every single extension that hadn't been updated in the last year.  There is/was TONS of great extensions that still worked fine but weren't being actively developed anymore.  It already wasn't helping that they decided to switch to some stupid "uprev every 30 minutes" model where they went from Firefox 4 to Firefox 543 in a year which also broke extensions doing version checking.

 

Probably one of the dumbest decisions anyone running a software project has made.  They basically hung out a sign that said "just go to Chrome because it's faster and now has just as many working extensions as we do"

[Kisai]

2 hours ago, RejZoR said:

In games you're not competing for the market share. If your game is interesting enough, anyone will buy it, unless you're doing a clone of already proven concept in which case you're essentially doing a clone of Chrome.

All the browsers are running on top of ANGLE, so there's really nothing unique as far as hardware support the web browsers have to offer. The Chromium-based browsers can't offer anything Chromium doesn't offer and has excised from the base. Chromium is used by Codova, nw.js and Electron. So changes in Chromium can literately break a large amount of existing software out there. That's why you need Firefox, as it will be the only thing not broken by a change to Chromium. Spotify, Discord, Slack, Teams, and so forth can be broken by changes in Chromium.

 

[Quackers101]

1 hour ago, AnonymousGuy said:

Firefox commit suicide when they decided to change their extension framework to break every single extension that hadn't been updated in the last year.  There is/was TONS of great extensions that still worked fine but weren't being actively developed anymore.  It already wasn't helping that they decided to switch to some stupid "uprev every 30 minutes" model where they went from Firefox 4 to Firefox 543 in a year which also broke extensions doing version checking.

kinda agree, as one see in thje extensions tab, there are a few "dead" mozilla projects which doesn't offer much confidence and when maybe the most recent one was a marketing gimmick (sorta and mostly) and maybe a container addon. + with the workers that was let go during the pandemic, at least they have updated or keep patching their browser.

[Forbidden Wafer]

2 hours ago, AnonymousGuy said:

Firefox 4 to Firefox 543 in a year

They made it that way due to Google updating stuff all the time, introducing new features faster than others and breaking stuff. That's actually a briliantly evil way to get marketshare, and they've done it multiple times.

[RejZoR]

@LAwLz

It's like you glanced over and haven't actually read most of it... Yes, speed is literally like that and you can throw whatever benchmark you want at me, they are all worthless gibberish. All Chrome based browsers show 2x numbers in pure JS benchmarks, but when you feed them real webpage they are same exact "slow" turd. It gets even worse when you feed them webpage full of ads (which is all of them these days) and expect its crippled adblockers to do the job efficiently.

 

Also Flags in Chrome based browsers are all useless. You can flip few settings, but for the most part they affect nothing. In Firefox you can disable or change features and even entirely disable entire subsystems if you don't need them. Like entire Developer stuff that I never ever need yet it was in bunch of menus and stupid key to bring them up. After disabling, it's gone entirely. Even something as minor as disabling closing of entire browser when closing last tab that really gets on my nerves, in Firefox it's 1 parameter to flip over. In Chrome based ones, you're forced to use garage half baked extensions that prevent that by shoving tabs in there to prevent closing.

 

And you missed the point of half of other things like what makes keywords so cool in Firefox. I literally mentioned that others have them too, but none of them sync them between devices. I have keywords for like 20 services. Good luck keeping that up on all systems or redoing them after every reinstall. And yes, bookmark managers are trash becase I also mentioned that.

 

I suggest you re-read it or not bother responding to it if you're not actually interested in understanding it.

[RejZoR]

9 hours ago, Quackers101 said:

kinda agree, as one see in thje extensions tab, there are a few "dead" mozilla projects which doesn't offer much confidence and when maybe the most recent one was a marketing gimmick (sorta and mostly) and maybe a container addon. + with the workers that was let go during the pandemic, at least they have updated or keep patching their browser.

Want to see Google's graveyard lol? Mozilla used to run a lot of pilot test projects via extensions first and then rolled them as part of browser. Firefox Sync started life that way for example years ago when some of us were already using Xmarks which was neat for crossbrowser syncing. Now they just roll features directly whether we like them or not (Chrome's approach). First in Nightly and then to Beta and Stable channels.

 

Btw, Containers can be activated without any extensions as they are part of Firefox now as underlaying isolation subsystem used for bunch of other things like cross-site tracking cookies. But installing extension is the easiest "normie" way. You can do it via about:config or Firefox Tweaker otherwise.

[LAwLz]

30 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

I suggest you re-read it or not bother responding to it if you're not actually interested in understanding it.

It's funny you'd say that, while at the same time not reading my post.

 

 

31 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Also Flags in Chrome based browsers are all useless. You can flip few settings, but for the most part they affect nothing. In Firefox you can disable or change features and even entirely disable entire subsystems if you don't need them.

11 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Toggle hardware or software rendering, enabling/disabling experimental things like QUIC, change things related to WebAssembly, etc. Do you want a different backend for your graphics abstraction layer? You can change that too in chrome://flags if you want. Want your browser to ask before it closes multiple tabs? You can do that too in chrome://flags

and

32 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

I literally mentioned that others have them too, but none of them sync them between devices.

11 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Also, the option to sync search engines has existed in Chrome since 2011. 

 

[RejZoR]

And yet you haven't actually read it if you think flipping few engine only settings is somehow the same when Firefox can literally turn off and hide whole subsystems or make GUI function differently... Also in all honesty, I don't give a shit if Chrome can sync search engines, it's junk and I avoid it. Other browsers I do try and they don't sync them, especially not keywords. Or just have bizarre issues with Sync.

[Sprawlie]

I've moved from FireFox now that they've started ramping up their telemetry and data collection, something they were always good at in comparison

 

upon install of the latest version, FireFox warns you that they're doing it at least. But the default is on. They are collecting mostly non-identifiable data.. But they are collecting IP addresses and some browser behaviour and user behaviour items. Which IMHO is enough to identify you if someone really wanted to.

 

Plus I don't know if I trust mozilla's data security with that data.

 

Good thing is you can outright turn it off. Bad thing is that Mozilla continues to hold the data for 30 days on their servers still.

 

FireFox used to be "the good guys", now seems like they're interested in data collection just like everyone else :(.

 

Why this feels so "hinky" frmo them? in the options for telemetry data, they outright say "we always ask permission before receiving personal information", yet in Firefox 91, these options are OPT OUT and ON by default.

 

You can find your settings and turn them off by navigating to: "about:telemetry" in the browser URL bar

 

What they're now using data form:

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Firefox by default shares data to:

Campaign and Referral Data: This helps Mozilla understand the effectiveness of our marketing campaigns.

• On Desktop: Firefox by default sends Mozilla HTTP data that may be included with Firefox’s installer. This enables us to determine the website domain or advertising campaign (if any) that referred you to our download page. Read the documentation or opt-out before installation.

  On Android: Firefox by default sends mobile campaign data to Adjust, our analytics vendor, which has its own privacy policy. Mobile campaign data includes a Google advertising ID, IP address, timestamp, country, language/locale, operating system, and app version. Read the documentation.

• Location data: Firefox uses your IP address to suggest relevant content based on your country and state.

• Technical & Interaction data: Firefox sends us data such as the position, size and placement of content we suggest, as well as basic data about your interactions with Firefox’s suggested content. This includes the number of times suggested content is displayed or clicked.

• Webpage data for Snippets: When you choose to click on a Snippet link, we may receive data about the link you followed. This information is not associated with any other information about you. Learn more.

• Webpage, Language, and Location data for Pocket Recommendations: We recommend content to you based on your browsing history, language, and country location. The process of deciding which stories you should see based on your browsing history happens locally in your copy of Firefox, and neither Mozilla nor Pocket receives a copy of your browsing history. To help you see relevant Pocket Recommendations based on your location, Firefox shares your language and country location with Pocket.

  Mozilla and Pocket receive aggregated data about the recommendations you see and click. We also share aggregated data about the sponsored content you see and click with our third-party ad platform Adzerk so advertisers can see how many people click on their articles. This aggregated data does not identify you personally.

• Location data and Interaction data for Top Sites: When you click on a Sponsored Top Sites tile on New Tab, we share your country, region, county (if you're in the US), and the time you clicked with AdMarketplace (a third-party referral platform) to verify you navigated to the website. Firefox does not share your IP address or any other information that could be used to identify you.

• Add-on and Feature Recommendations: We recommend Add-ons in two places: the Manage Your Extensions Page (about:addons) and the Awesome Bar, where you search or type in URLs. We may also recommend Firefox Features in the Awesome Bar. We base the recommendations in about:addons on a cookie. We base the recommendations in the Awesome Bar on your interaction with Firefox. Mozilla does not receive your browser history. The process happens locally in your own computer’s copy of Firefox. Learn More about Awesome Bar recommendations or Extensions Page recommendations.

•  

 

 

[chrono76]

16 minutes ago, Sprawlie said:

I've moved from FireFox now that they've started ramping up their telemetry and data collection, something they were always good at in comparison

What are you even talking about? Firefox tracks less than Chrome, and most distro mantainers disable it all anyways (Windows probably doesnt, but why would they lol). Besides tracking is not inherently a bad thing, it can be done to improve UX, but I will give you that Mozilla seems to ignore most suggestions anyways lol

 

16 minutes ago, Sprawlie said:

upon install of the latest version, FireFox warns you that they're doing it at least. But the default is on. They are collecting mostly non-identifiable data.. But they are collecting IP addresses and some browser behaviour and user behaviour items. Which IMHO is enough to identify you if someone really wanted to.

If you are afraid someone wants to identify you, you should not be writing stuff in public forums. And as I said, tracking is not inherently bad, and they are clear about what they collect anyways. Besides how much information can they collect if you turn the tracking off as soon as you install it? They will keep the data for 30 days, but how much data can they get from 2 minutes of usage?

16 minutes ago, Sprawlie said:

FireFox used to be "the good guys", now seems like they're interested in data collection just like everyone else :(.

I don't really see it, if they were really interested in data collection they would not be barely afloat, selling all they have would probably help them escape from Google giving them money to have someone to say "Look we are not a monopoly in the browser market". They are making money other ways, via Mozilla VPN and such, which yeah is Mullvad with a skin, but at least its something. I know Mozilla has done some nasty stuff, I recognize that, but its still better than Google.

[Sprawlie]

7 minutes ago, chrono76 said:

What are you even talking about? Firefox tracks less than Chrome, and most distro mantainers disable it all anyways (Windows probably doesnt, but why would they lol). Besides tracking is not inherently a bad thing, it can be done to improve UX, but I will give you that Mozilla seems to ignore most suggestions anyways lol

 

If you are afraid someone wants to identify you, you should not be writing stuff in public forums. And as I said, tracking is not inherently bad, and they are clear about what they collect anyways. Besides how much information can they collect if you turn the tracking off as soon as you install it? They will keep the data for 30 days, but how much data can they get from 2 minutes of usage?

I don't really see it, if they were really interested in data collection they would not be barely afloat, selling all they have would probably help them escape from Google giving them money to have someone to say "Look we are not a monopoly in the browser market". They are making money other ways, via Mozilla VPN and such, which yeah is Mullvad with a skin, but at least its something. I know Mozilla has done some nasty stuff, I recognize that, but its still better than Google.

this whole argument boils down to what-a-boutism.

 

I'm not saying Chrome/IE/Edge etc is BETTER in anyway. I never ever even mentioned them

 

what strawman did you construct just to try and act indigant that I somehow am calling out a shift in Mozilla's business that now involves data collection?

 

There's also a massive difference in posting on a single public forum like this, without providing identifiable information, and a web browser that is recording information to use for marketing and partners.

 

I've been at this game for 30+ years, Trust me, this isn't NEW. But I feel like for all our OUR best interest when a company like Mozilla makes a shift in how they are using data, and collecting it, it is in all of our best interest to identify, know and understand their business motiviations

 

Giving Mozilla a pass on their change to data collection because "at least their not the other guys" is how we end up with no good options.

 

 

[chrono76]

3 minutes ago, Sprawlie said:

this whole argument boils down to what-a-boutism.

I can see that, I apologize, but I still think I bring up some valid points

 

4 minutes ago, Sprawlie said:

I'm not saying Chrome/IE/Edge etc is BETTER in anyway. I never ever even mentioned them

That's fair, but if you moved away from Firefox, that implies to me you moved from them to something Chromium based, unless you use Webkit which is worse. What browser do you use then?

5 minutes ago, Sprawlie said:

what strawman did you construct just to try and act indigant that I somehow am calling out a shift in Mozilla's business that now involves data collection?

After reading your post I guess you are right, you did not say they are making a business out of it. I just think that Mozilla is at least aware of the image they have gotten from the community of privacy aware people. I hope they don't worsen even more.

I didn't mean to try and turn everyone against you in any way, sorry for that. I simply find Firefox to be good for my personal use, and I disliked some of the meaning I got from reading you, even if that's not what you meant. Anyways, greetings!

[Sprawlie]

Still on Firefox. 

 

My post was for informational purposes.

 

Edge is cancer. Chrome is/was my preference, but I've been moving away from Google services as well. 

 

FireFox is still my preference for now. But I'm not happy about the changes

 

And no problem. Greetings! and absolutely zero hard feelings!

[RejZoR]

@Sprawlie

Firefox telemetry can be disabled, which can't be said for likes like Chrome or Edge. Especially Edge is cancer. If you block usual Microsoft data hoarding channels, it'll also kill Sync feature.

[Heraldique]

On 8/5/2021 at 4:31 AM, tikker said:

Shame, I like the browser. I don't particularly like the most recent UI redesign though. Everything is so spaced out. It's also never 100% stable for me. Random bits and pieces of websites just keep breaking especially when not constantly running the latest version.

This is because of chromium dominance and lazy dev 

[Heraldique]

On 8/5/2021 at 6:58 AM, Chris Pratt said:

No they aren't. Chromium is maintained by Google, Apple, and Microsoft, along with smaller companies and many individuals. Google doesn't have veto power or anything like that, so control is shared by the community.

Apple isn’t working on chromium 

[Sprawlie]

23 hours ago, RejZoR said:

@Sprawlie

Firefox telemetry can be disabled, which can't be said for likes like Chrome or Edge. Especially Edge is cancer. If you block usual Microsoft data hoarding channels, it'll also kill Sync feature.

Correct;

 

type "about:telemetry" in the browser URL and you can see the status and what is being sent.

 

again: pointing out that they've added more data collection is all. I believe that users are entitled to know to make their own decisions.