Surgeons will soon use suspended animation to revive gunshot victims

[042]

The technique involves replacing all of a patient’s blood with a cold saline solution, which quickly cools the body and slows down cellular activity to a point where it basically stops. This effectively puts the person in a state between life and death. Technically speaking, the patient isn’t alive at this point, but after doctors have treated the wound, the patient’s body can gradually be warmed up and brought back to life as the saline solution is replaced with blood.

 

Articles:

Digital Trends

http://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/cryostasis-isnt-science-fiction-anymore-surgeons-will-soon-use-suspended-animation-revive-gunshot-victims/

The Verge

http://www.theverge.com/2014/3/26/5551120/upmc-presbyterian-hospital-will-conduct-first-human-suspended-animation-trials

 

Enough of the Zuckerberg news, Time for something interesting.

[flibberdipper]

Cool. Like, that's all that comes to mind.

[TheEpicCanadian]

TONY STARK STYLE HOME COMPUTERS ARE COOOOMMMIIINNNNGGGGG

[gastew15]

Umm sounds awful.. I'd much rather risk more of a chance of dying from the wound than being put in a death comma to save me.

[sof006]

Umm sounds awful.. I'd much rather risk more of a chance of dying from the wound than being put in a death comma to save me.

You wouldn't have a say in the matter nor would you know its happening. It reduces bad things happening, like going brain dead etc. So if I happened to be shot by a gun I would let them use any means necessary to getting me back alive and on my feet again

[slasher0161]

Umm sounds awful.. I'd much rather risk more of a chance of dying from the wound than being put in a death comma to save me.

We already use induced coma's and have entire sections of hospitals dedicated to people who are dead until proven alive (icu) so what difference does it make. If you are already fucked might as well give it a shot and at the end of the day it wouldn't be your call to make at least for these trials as you have to be fairly well foot in the grave before they can administer it.

Consider though the interesting possibilities that can come from this, certainly a lot less blood wasted (seen one patient chew over 11L of blood before dying anyway).

[gastew15]

You wouldn't have a say in the matter nor would you know its happening. It reduces bad things happening, like going brain dead etc. So if I happened to be shot by a gun I would let them use any means necessary to getting me back alive and on my feet again

Well unless I was already dead or unconscious I would From a legal matter I could decline any treatment of the sort. Not to mention most people who make it to a hospital have a giant chance of surviving a gunshot wound. I really don't even like the whole knock out gas either, but that's why I don't go break myself and get major surgery. Being unconisous a very crazy thing if you really think about it. Even sleeping is pretty sketchy.

[gastew15]

We already use induced coma's and have entire sections of hospitals dedicated to people who are dead until proven alive (icu) so what difference does it make. If you are already fucked might as well give it a shot and at the end of the day it wouldn't be your call to make at least for these trials as you have to be fairly well foot in the grave before they can administer it.

Consider though the interesting possibilities that can come from this, certainly a lot less blood wasted (seen one patient chew over 11L of blood before dying anyway).

I can see it being useful for that. Although at least in my opinion you might as well just let the guy die anyways. Again just my weird opinion on it, but I'd still rather just die, and I really never have liked that the government doesn't give you the right to death but instead forces life which is a lot of BS really. Another major factor is like the example I give all the time for why the guy who just had a heart attack might have wanted to just die after looking at his hospital bill that he'll never be able to pay back. That might just be more of how broken the whole system is on that end, but yea..   It is still kind of cool technology even if I'm against, since who am I, since I'm just a random no-body.

[Fred Castellum]

I actually find this a interesting medical step forward. 

 

 

I can see it being useful for that. Although at least in my opinion you might as well just let the guy die anyways. Again just my weird opinion on it, but I'd still rather just die, and I really never have liked that the government doesn't give you the right to death but instead forces life which is a lot of BS really. Another major factor is like the example I give all the time for why the guy who just had a heart attack might have wanted to just die after looking at his hospital bill that he'll never be able to pay back. That might just be more of how broken the whole system is on that end, but yea..   It is still kind of cool technology even if I'm against, since who am I, since I'm just a random no-body.

I would have never brought government into this lol. I feel like the doctors are the ones who are truly pushing this forward. 

[One Who Craves Souls]

Umm sounds awful.. I'd much rather risk more of a chance of dying from the wound than being put in a death comma to save me.

Take it from someone that work in a hospital, this method is not awful at all compare to others... it's actually very innovative.

[slasher0161]

I can see it being useful for that. Although at least in my opinion you might as well just let the guy die anyways. Again just my weird opinion on it, but I'd still rather just die, and I really never have liked that the government doesn't give you the right to death but instead forces life which is a lot of BS really. Another major factor is like the example I give all the time for why the guy who just had a heart attack might have wanted to just die after looking at his hospital bill that he'll never be able to pay back. That might just be more of how broken the whole system is on that end, but yea..   It is still kind of cool technology even if I'm against, since who am I, since I'm just a random no-body.

I fully agree with the sentiment to let people die if they wish and completely agree the system is broken my hope for the technology lies in saving children's lives. Believe me it is completely fucked the number of children that die from utter stupidity in "1st world" countries, hell where i am alone i would hazard the average in car crashes is around 10 a year. The fact it isn't optional i can see being changed if it passes clinical trials and becomes an adopted medical procedure.

Though since you brought up the refusal to let people die it is damn embarassing how far they will go to 'save' someone now days, i know at least a few people who are literally useless now due to incidents and would be quite content to die but aren't allowed, yet ironically enough the world is over populated... I guess the extra paperwork for a death is more difficult than just creating another vegetable.

[gastew15]

I actually find this a interesting medical step forward. 

 

 

I would have never brought government into this lol. I feel like the doctors are the ones who are truly pushing this forward. 

Probably made a topic that would have got a lot of "That's cool" responses a little more interesting though! It is an interesting idea from a medical point though.

 

Take it from someone that work in a hospital, this method is not awful at all compare to others... it's actually very innovative.

Oh definitely, being a fan of history, economics, and more conservative views on life span I just want to be able to live a fun normalish long life and be done with it. Never was a fan of the whole let's all live to be a billion years old crap, but I guess most people hang on to that whole living thing.. :lol:  Quick bursts do tend to make things more interesting, but it seems like I'm just saying go out and refuse medical treatment at this point... (By the way probably not the best plan) So I'll stop with my rambling, but why did people expect with my member title.

[One Who Craves Souls]

Probably made a topic that would have got a lot of "That's cool" responses a little more interesting though! It is an interesting idea from a medical point though.

 

Oh definitely, being a fan of history, economics, and more conservative views on life span I just want to be able to live a fun normalish long life and be done with it. Never was a fan of the whole let's all live to be a billion years old crap, but I guess most people hang on to that whole living thing.. :lol:  Quick bursts do tend to make things more interesting, but it seems like I'm just saying go out and refuse medical treatment at this point... (By the way probably not the best plan) So I'll stop with my rambling, but why did people expect with my member title.

Oh no but it's ok, diversity of opinions is what makes a discussion interesting lol

[TheNinjaNextDor]

We need this to put me under and keep me until future stuff happens.

[slasher0161]

We need this to put me under and keep me until future stuff happens.

Read that and my first thought was 'put all the rift backers on ice until this all blows over so we dont have to hear any more of the rage train for today at least'.

[Dragonzeanse]

Umm sounds awful.. I'd much rather risk more of a chance of dying from the wound than being put in a death comma to save me.

Are you at all familiar with anesthesiology? I don't think you are.

[042]

We need this to put me under and keep me until future stuff happens.

I think similar technology will make it possible to freeze humans and possibly stop or slow the aging in humans so we can live longer.

[AndThenThereWas1]

This would be used on people who are essentially dead. It takes about 4-6 minutes before brain cells start to die without oxygen. Normally, if the heart stops due to severe trauma/hypovolemia there is very little that can be done. In most cases the patient isnt even taken to the OR for surgery because they aren't stable enough. With this procedure the moment the patient's heart stops, or just before in cases where its obvious that death is imminent, the person would get cooled saline pumped into them. This would cool the body to temps where cell death is slowed(This procedure is already used on patients with heart damage, although they plan to cool the body far more than before). This would allow enough time for the patient to be moved into the OR and it would give the surgeons time to make repairs and close up any wounds. The patient would then be, theoretically, heated and revived with minimal brain/cell damage.

 

It sounds like sci-fi, but keep in mind that there are numerous reported cases of people drowning in ice water and being revived with minimal brain damage 30-40min later. Some reports even mention people being revived after as long as 90min.

 

The entire reason for this procedure is to prevent brain damage. Most other organs and tissue can survive without oxygen for about an hour. Its the brain that starts dieing after about 4min.

 

So, those people saying they would rather take their chances with conventional medicine should think again. This procedure would essentially be used when there are no other choices and it would be your final chance at survival.

[ionbasa]

Cool. (pun intended)

I see this as basically the start to short term cryogenics for humans. This not only can save lives, but will advance even further down the line, maybe for organ transplants. Pump it with salt water gel and keep organs alive much longer during transplants.

[nicehat]

We already do this in the surgical and ER wards to a less technological degree. We use ice baths to reach the same effect without compromising oxygenation of vital organs like the brain. I cant really see how they would maintain oxygen to the brain if you are using cold saline. It wouldnt work, and the brain always, always needs oxygen period. If you want to know, 2 out of the 9 animals died, and of the surviving pigs, 1 of them had some neurological deficiency 

[ionbasa]

We already do this in the surgical and ER wards to a less technological degree. We use ice baths to reach the same effect without compromising oxygenation of vital organs like the brain. I cant really see how they would maintain oxygen to the brain if you are using cold saline. It wouldnt work, and the brain always, always needs oxygen period. If you want to know, 2 out of the 9 animals died, and of the surviving pigs, 1 of them had some neurological deficiency 

Not too bright at Chemistry or Biology? It isn't just saltwater, but an aqueous solution with oxygen and some sort of salt.

Aka, oxygen and salt are dissolved in the water already.

[nicehat]

Not too bright at Chemistry or Biology? It isn't just saltwater, but an aqueous solution with oxygen and some sort of salt.

Aka, oxygen and salt are dissolved in the water already.

 

listen professor, before being so condescending about it, look up oxygen delivery to tissues. It depends on 2 little molecules called heme and globin. Turns out they need CO2 and O2 to deliver O2 to tissues and the CO2 waste away..O2 Sat curves check it out. By the way, I know what saline is. No need to call it "an aqueous solution with oxygen and sort kind of salt". Its salt + water..maybe some sugar. that's it. You don't oxygenate tissue with H20. Thats not how it works. I wont do you the satisfaction of explaining why not. Google it. Thanks for the compliments though. By the way, what are your credentials? 

[ionbasa]

listen professor, before being so condescending about it, look up oxygen delivery to tissues. It depends on 2 little molecules called heme and globin. Turns out they need CO2 and O2 to deliver O2 to tissues and the CO2 waste away..O2 Sat curves check it out. By the way, I know what saline is. No need to call it "an aqueous solution with oxygen and sort kind of salt". Its salt + water..maybe some sugar. that's it. You don't oxygenate tissue with H20. Thats not how it works. I wont do you the satisfaction of explaining why not. Google it. Thanks for the compliments though. By the way, what are your credentials? 

My credentials? College student at an accredited 4 year institution from the University of California system.

 

First, sorry if I offended you in any way. The way I respond was subject to what I had learned from general chemistry, organic chemistry and biology, and as such I used the vernacular that was used in class by professors, and which I was familiar with.

 

I personally did an lab experiment, in my cell biology/molecular biology class that was similar to what is described here. Albeit, with beans and crickets). The focus of our lab experiment was to observe cellular respiration, and the effect of an oxygenated salt water(hence aqueous solution). This experiment actually involved two parts, the first part involved respirometers to measure the metabolism as a reference point.

 

Anyway to further our discussion in a professional matter.

 

At least from what I have learned so far, all cells in our bodies are made up of a phospholipid bilayer, which allow for passive/facilitated diffusion and osmosis. Small molecules, like gasses (N₂,O₂, CO₂) and water should diffuse through the membrane freely.

 

Shouldn't this be enough to allow cellular respiration to continue?

 

 

Again, I am not trying to argue, just trying to have an interesting and hopefully fruitful discussion on the topic. Also if you are in the medical profession, it would be interesting to actually talk to someone who actively works in the field, as I realize in school teachers sometimes tell 'half truths' or at least the very basic principals and later these get revised a year or two into a students education.

[ofr057]

so is this a step to the side of cryogenics?

[nicehat]

At least from what I have learned so far, all cells in our bodies are made up of a phospholipid bilayer, which allow for passive/facilitated diffusion and osmosis. Small molecules, like gasses (N₂,O₂, CO₂) and water should diffuse through the membrane freely.

 

Shouldn't this be enough to allow cellular respiration to continue?

 

 

Again, I am not trying to argue, just trying to have an interesting and hopefully fruitful discussion on the topic. Also if you are in the medical profession, it would be interesting to actually talk to someone who actively works in the field, as I realize in school teachers sometimes tell 'half truths' or at least the very basic principals and later these get revised a year or two into a students education.

 

 

No worries. I guess I took it a little different than how you meant it. no harm no foul. Note: If you want to skip all this nonsense go directly to #3 to most directly answer your question, feel free. 

 

Regarding your question about water being able to passively support cellular tissue. This is not exactly the case. Although you are absolutely correct in that phospholipids are permeable to H₂0, the H₂0 is not what the cell uses to help produce ATP. This is basically how if works 

 

CO₂ + H₂O  H₂CO₃  H+ + HCO₃− 

 

This is called the Bohr effect. In the lungs, Hemoglobin binds to oxygen, and you dump off CO₂ and water vapor (expiration). When you have unoxygenated tissue, the rxn shifts right and the H binds to the Hemoglobin (which lets go of the O2 it was holding onto before). Thats how we deliver O₂ to tissues.

 

1. With that background out of the way, O₂ diffusion (through the phospho bilayer) happen based on a concentration gradient. For diffusion to occur, you need low O₂ concentration in the tissue and high outside the tissue. The way we produce this gradient is with Hemoglobin. If Hemoglobin can do its job, then that indirectly allows dissolved O₂ in blood or saline to diffuse into the tissue through the phospholipid bilayer.The only way Hemoglobin can drop off O₂ from the blood cell is if it picks up a hydrogen from the tissue, to which it has a higher affinity to Hemoglobin than Oxygen. So basically, the O₂ gradient is reliant on Hemoglobin's ability to whisk away H+ ions as fast as it can. This means we need alot of Hemoglobin that constantly circulates from areas of low O₂ concentration (tissue) to areas of high concentration (lungs). Thats how we maintain everything. If that circulating red blood cell doesn't work, or if you have anemia, there is no gradient for the dissolved gas to follow. Thats why asthmatics, and anemic people shut down after strenuous activity. 

 

Also, consider If the dissolved O₂ in our blood was enough, we wouldnt need this extra mechanism. The fact that we do means that our cellular oxygen demand is far greater than that of passive diffusion of soluble gases alone. Now that is why dissolved O₂ alone cant keep cells alive, but lets get into why H₂0 cant work.

 

      2.  Second, cellular respiration produces alot of ATP, the energy unit that we use. To keep the Krebs cycle running (the engine that pumps out our energy), you need oxygen which is                            used to eventually pump out H₂0, and CO₂ and energy. If water is a by-product, it cant also be a starting ingredient in energy production. Therefor, the H₂0 in saline cant be used                            to make energy directly. You need to break it down into H₂ + O₂(which is then used) which brings us to the third point:

 

      3    H₂ + 0₂ --> H₂0  In  the cell, 0₂ reduction to H₂0 is coupled with reactions that make energy to keep the cell alive (Krebs cycle above).

            H₂0 --> H₂ + O₂  But if we want to go the other way?That is, to oxidize H₂0, you would have to input energy, which is thermodynamically counter intuitive to a cell. However, this                             can be done by electrolysis in a chemistry lab.   

 

The Δ G for making water is a VERY favorable -1.229 V downhill reaction...Going the opposite way to make O₂ would REQUIRE energy..Something that a pt with a half comatose brain is unlikely to want to do. 

 

Although all three reasons are important, I think your question is most directly answered by the third point.

 

About revisions, Science as a whole is never static. New information comes out all the time to disprove old ways of thinking. Rarely do underlying principals and fundamentals need change. Its because of this that the basic grade level science that your parents learnt is very similar to what you learned at the same grade. As you go up the academic ladder, information is more prone to being changed. If you get a Masters degree in Chemistry or a PhD, you are required to add to the current knowledge base or modify existing paradigms. If a teacher tells you a 'half truth' my guess would be because it is an introductory explanation until a more in depth explanation can be given in a higher level class?

 

To comment further on the article, I think if cold saline was used, it could not be done for very long and a mixture of blood and saline would be used for effect sooner than later.