[India] Social media platforms must remove content within 36 hours of govt order and other Censorship rules

[WkdPaul]

1 minute ago, BuckGup said:

Do you know what determines the country that has authority on websites? Is it tied to who the domain is registered to? 

Kinda, if we got a DMCA for some reason, I'm pretty sure we would have to comply even if the forum and LMG isn't in the US because of agreements between the US and Canada. So it usually falls down to where the HQ of the company is, or where is the website/service hosted.

 

But in general, big companies don't want to be blocked and will comply with governments rules and regulations regardless.

[VirusDumb]

11 minutes ago, Rohith_Kumar_Sp said:

rouble trouble, ofcourse, if they can arrest a 16 year old environment worker under false pretense and escort to a different state without proper procedures for simple sharing a tweet, they can obviosly make an example out of you, the 2nd route is they simple will ask fb to remove your page. 

well I am under 16 and the best I can do is archive all the political content(even tho I dont have any political content on my page, the political content i have created are as collabs in other pages, and i only just helped them in editing, I only have one "yeh pubg wala hai kya" meme on my page), if matter seems worse I shall try temporarily disabling my page.

[Master Disaster]

36 minutes ago, Rohith_Kumar_Sp said:

it's clear as water why this move is done right now, underneath all the noise, its just plain censorship hiding in the name of "THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN/fake information" 

Until you can provide proof that what you're saying is correct its your opinion.

 

To be clear, that's fine. You're entitled to any opinion you like and I don't live in India nor do I follow (or even see) Indian News so its not something I'd ever of heard of but from what I've seen so far it looks like they're clamping down on hate speech, not freedom of expression.

 

I will give you the "everyone has to register a Govt. ID Number" policy is pretty out there but honestly, I don't think that's doable in India. Our Govt. tried to force us into buying "porn passes" where you had to go into a shop, with ID, register and pay a fee just to be able to view porn at all.

 

It failed spectacularly because it was a logistical nightmare, a data storage minefield and it was pointed out that the laws would also apply to Govt. officials and a DB like that would become a target for hackers which would be a possible blackmail nightmare (or even worse).

 

We have just over 70M people, India has 1.3B.

[Master Disaster]

27 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

Kinda, if we got a DMCA for some reason, I'm pretty sure we would have to comply even if the forum and LMG isn't in the US because of agreements between the US and Canada. So it usually falls down to where the HQ of the company is, or where is the website/service hosted.

 

But in general, big companies don't want to be blocked and will comply with governments rules and regulations regardless.

If a business is operating in a foreign nation they have to follow any and all laws that apply in those countries. GDPR was a huge example of this in action, I bet you guys had to make some changes to this very forum to be GDPR compliant. Also when Aus sued Valve over their refund policy.

 

Any company can file a DMCA in pretty much any country on Earth and it has to be acted on. For other matters you can always try to pursue them in their local courts. In big cases you can summons them to your local court system.

[StDragon]

1 hour ago, Master Disaster said:

Fair but my point was, your freedom ends at the point if affects someone else in a negative way.

 

Removing hate speech from social media is no more censorship than the banning of alt right & neo nazi pollitcal views. Sometimes there is stuff that needs removing for the good of everyone.

I think everyone can agree that hate speech is toxic. The problem is whom gets to define what hate speech is? It's a nebulous topic in which the intention gets abused and weaponized to stifle dissent of others.

 

"Nobody has the right to not be offended."

[JZStudios]

4 hours ago, Rohith_Kumar_Sp said:

then you must be hiding under a rock, it's already happening, you just don't know it and i can't discuss the details here. 

I'd ask what's happening in India, but I remembered that the forums like to get you in trouble for very little reason.

 

3 hours ago, Rohith_Kumar_Sp said:

contradict what? do elaborate. 

that has been questionable day by day and i don't want to dwell into whataboutism, EIU Democracy Index of India in last 10 years and respective ranks

Freemond of expression has been good down to drains over the year with India restricted Internet access more than any country, lost $2.8 billion

What could possibly make up those stats?

 

1 hour ago, Master Disaster said:

Fair but my point was, your freedom ends at the point if affects someone else in a negative way.

 

Removing hate speech from social media is no more censorship than the banning of alt right & neo nazi pollitcal views. Sometimes there is stuff that needs removing for the good of everyone.

Only depending on the laws in your country. In the US and anywhere with free speech you aren't censored or jailed because you said a mean thing on the internet and your freedom absolutely does not end.

And once again, having the company remove content for TOS violations you agree to is not the same as being ordered by the government to silence dissent.

[JZStudios]

16 minutes ago, StDragon said:

I think everyone can agree that hate speech is toxic. The problem is whom gets to define what hate speech is? It's a nebulous topic in which the intention gets abused and weaponized to stifle dissent of others.

 

"Nobody has the right to not be offended."

Essentially all he said was an overly elaborate "You're a smelly asshole."

If that's enough to call for "hate speech" and censorship because it hurt someones feelings, then what about all the atheists calling theists dumb? Flat Earthers? People calling everyone a Nazi? Any internet argument ever?

[StDragon]

5 minutes ago, JZStudios said:

Essentially all he said was an overly elaborate "You're a smelly asshole."

If that's enough to call for "hate speech" and censorship because it hurt someones feelings, then what about all the atheists calling theists dumb? Flat Earthers? People calling everyone a Nazi? Any internet argument ever?

Water off a ducks back *quack quack*.

 

Just let it roll off. Never give the offender the pleasurer to know he got your goat.

 

There's a reason I'll not visit 4Chan for the same as Twitter and FB; they're cesspits of the Internet. For me, life is too short to engage in that crap.

[JZStudios]

8 minutes ago, StDragon said:

Water off a ducks back *quack quack*.

 

Just let it roll off. Never give the offender the pleasurer to know he got your goat.

 

There's a reason I'll not visit 4Chan for the same as Twitter and FB; they're cesspits of the Internet. For me, life is too short to engage in that crap.

Sure, but we're now at a point where countries have actual hate speech laws backed up by fines and jail time. Can't post about what you had for lunch because someone's starving somewhere. Can't talk about it raining because there's a tsunami or something. Can't post opinions because someone might disagree.

[Rohith_Kumar_Sp]

1 hour ago, Master Disaster said:

Until you can provide proof that what you're saying is correct its your opinion.

bruh, i live here, i know my govt better than you. i can't possible post links on this forum without getting the post locked. 

[Rohith_Kumar_Sp]

29 minutes ago, JZStudios said:

What could possibly make up those stats?

https://www.eiu.com/n/campaigns/democracy-index-2020/

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

 

 

[StDragon]

1 hour ago, JZStudios said:

Sure, but we're now at a point where countries have actual hate speech laws backed up by fines and jail time. Can't post about what you had for lunch because someone's starving somewhere. Can't talk about it raining because there's a tsunami or something. Can't post opinions because someone might disagree.

Oh, there's no doubt we are in an era of collective madness. The whole world has practically gone insane.

[Kisai]

6 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

Err, isn't removing those things from the Internet a good thing?

 

Porn is a bit much but that's a religious thing anyway.

The problem is over-reach.

 

If you talk about money-laundering, you are also talking about crypto coins

If you are talking about human trafficking, you are also talking about porn, webcam models, hentai manga, and paintings/statues with clothing optional.

If you are talking about immoral acts, you are also talking about any depiction of drugs, gambling, loot boxes, alcohol, gay/lesbian/trans issues in a positive light, let alone all the "blasphemy" from state religious institutions. 

 

Basically the problem with censorship is that one vague promise, sweeps up everything that that is even remotely related to it.  "human trafficking" excuses only increase human trafficking because there is no means for sex-positive businesses to exist, only ones where people are enslaved to another and run illegally. We're basically seeing the same problem there as we've seen for the last 40 years on drug prohibition. 

1 hour ago, StDragon said:

There's a reason I'll not visit 4Chan for the same as Twitter and FB; they're cesspits of the Internet. For me, life is too short to engage in that crap.

Those are completely different platforms with completely different audiences. Twitter is a shouting match between progressives and anyone who doesn't share the group-think. Nobody listens to each other, they just shout into the void. Facebook is the other way around, with every echo chamber locked off into it's own box. In that regard Discord is evolving into Facebook.

 

[Sauron]

6 hours ago, Rohith_Kumar_Sp said:

When people are competent, they reform. When they’re incompetent, they ban.

I wouldn't call it incompetence, it's a pretty effective way of perpetuating dictatorial power.

4 hours ago, wkdpaul said:

Yes, it technically would be censorship, but that would be done on the forum rules and not because of a government demand (that, BTW, we would have to follow here in Canada, for exemple if there was an investigation on a user and they went through the proper legal channels)

People often forget that copyright law is even stricter than this in most western countries. Even in 'murica, despite all the larping about freeze peach.

 

I wouldn't say a mod removing a post here is the same kind of censorship the OP is about though. You banning me from your private platform because you don't want me here is different from the government mandating that you do so.

3 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

Fair but my point was, your freedom ends at the point if affects someone else in a negative way.

More importantly, as long as you're on my platform your freedom to post only goes as far as I decide - regardless of whether what you're doing hurts anyone else.

3 hours ago, BuckGup said:

Do you know what determines the country that has authority on websites? Is it tied to who the domain is registered to? 

You don't need direct authority on the owners of a website to obscure it in your country.

[LAwLz]

3 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

Until you can provide proof that what you're saying is correct its your opinion.

 

To be clear, that's fine. You're entitled to any opinion you like and I don't live in India nor do I follow (or even see) Indian News so its not something I'd ever of heard of but from what I've seen so far it looks like they're clamping down on hate speech, not freedom of expression.

Yes, and China's government has only clamped down on hate speech as well, not freedom of expression.

I am sure that nothing bad has ever happened with a government gives themselves absolute power over what people can and can't say, what info they can and can't view. Nope, never in the history has that ever lead to anything bad. Don't worry, as long as they say what they remove is hate speech (which you can't even verify since it is censored) then we have no reason to distrust them, right?

 

 

 

It's also worth noting that the Indian government was recently caught running a massive, global, pro-Indian government propaganda operation recently where they had set up over 750 different media outlets, posing as legitimate news sites, with the sole purpose of spreading pro-India messages and attack countries the Indian government saw as a threat, mostly China and Pakistan.

The dead professor and the vast pro-India disinformation campaign - BBC News

Indian Chronicles: deep dive into a 15-year operation targeting the EU and UN to serve Indian interests | EU DisinfoLab

 

When a country has spent 15 years creating thousands of websites, impersonated UN personnel, written hundreds of not thousands of articles, then maybe we should be a bit skeptical when they try and give themselves more power and control over what people can and can't say.

Especially not when said country, as Rohith has pointed out, has slowly become less and less democratic for every year.

 

I think it would be best if the Internet was regulated as little as possible, unless such regulation is there to ensure an equal playing field and counteract that someone or something gets too much power and control over it. Requiring government issued IDs that gets tied to everything you view and say, governments that gets to decide what is and isn't allowed. Those are all bad ideas in my eyes, even if the cause seems nobel like "we need to remove hate speech", because as Neil Gaiman once wrote:

Quote

The Law is a blunt instrument. It's not a scalpel. It's a club. If there is something you consider indefensible, and there is something you consider defensible, and the same laws can take them both out, you are going to find yourself defending the indefensible.

 

-snip-

 

Still, you seem to want lolicon banned, and people prosecuted for owning it, and I don't. You ask, What makes it worth defending? and the only answer I can give is this: Freedom to write, freedom to read, freedom to own material that you believe is worth defending means you're going to have to stand up for stuff you don't believe is worth defending, even stuff you find actively distasteful, because laws are big blunt instruments that do not differentiate between what you like and what you don't, because prosecutors are humans and bear grudges and fight for re-election, because one person's obscenity is another person's art.

Because if you don't stand up for the stuff you don't like, when they come for the stuff you do like, you've already lost.

 

Actually, the entire "why defend freedom of icky speech" is a great read and I highly recommend it.

[Master Disaster]

3 hours ago, JZStudios said:

Sure, but we're now at a point where countries have actual hate speech laws backed up by fines and jail time. Can't post about what you had for lunch because someone's starving somewhere. Can't talk about it raining because there's a tsunami or something. Can't post opinions because someone might disagree.

I call that being "offended by proxy", being offended by something that doesn't really concern you and/or on behalf of someone else and I 100% agree its a problem.

 

People's sense of humour is slowly being eroded and replaced with sensitivity, its a big issue for sure but there are limits.

 

2 hours ago, Kisai said:

The problem is over-reach.

 

If you talk about money-laundering, you are also talking about crypto coins

If you are talking about human trafficking, you are also talking about porn, webcam models, hentai manga, and paintings/statues with clothing optional.

If you are talking about immoral acts, you are also talking about any depiction of drugs, gambling, loot boxes, alcohol, gay/lesbian/trans issues in a positive light, let alone all the "blasphemy" from state religious institutions. 

 

Basically the problem with censorship is that one vague promise, sweeps up everything that that is even remotely related to it.  "human trafficking" excuses only increase human trafficking because there is no means for sex-positive businesses to exist, only ones where people are enslaved to another and run illegally. We're basically seeing the same problem there as we've seen for the last 40 years on drug prohibition. 

Those are completely different platforms with completely different audiences. Twitter is a shouting match between progressives and anyone who doesn't share the group-think. Nobody listens to each other, they just shout into the void. Facebook is the other way around, with every echo chamber locked off into it's own box. In that regard Discord is evolving into Facebook.

 

Fair and that's more often than not what happens but arguing a slippery slope is not a good foundation for getting the problem noticed and affecting change.

2 hours ago, StDragon said:

Oh, there's no doubt we are in an era of collective madness. The whole world has practically gone insane.

Preach.

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Yes, and China's government has only clamped down on hate speech as well, not freedom of expression.

I am sure that nothing bad has ever happened with a government gives themselves absolute power over what people can and can't say, what info they can and can't view. Nope, never in the history has that ever lead to anything bad. Don't worry, as long as they say what they remove is hate speech (which you can't even verify since it is censored) then we have no reason to distrust them, right?

 

 

 

It's also worth noting that the Indian government was recently caught running a massive, global, pro-Indian government propaganda operation recently where they had set up over 750 different media outlets, posing as legitimate news sites, with the sole purpose of spreading pro-India messages and attack countries the Indian government saw as a threat, mostly China and Pakistan.

The dead professor and the vast pro-India disinformation campaign - BBC News

Indian Chronicles: deep dive into a 15-year operation targeting the EU and UN to serve Indian interests | EU DisinfoLab

 

When a country has spent 15 years creating thousands of websites, impersonated UN personnel, written hundreds of not thousands of articles, then maybe we should be a bit skeptical when they try and give themselves more power and control over what people can and can't say.

Especially not when said country, as Rohith has pointed out, has slowly become less and less democratic for every year.

 

I think it would be best if the Internet was regulated as little as possible, unless such regulation is there to ensure an equal playing field and counteract that someone or something gets too much power and control over it. Requiring government issued IDs that gets tied to everything you view and say, governments that gets to decide what is and isn't allowed. Those are all bad ideas in my eyes, even if the cause seems nobel like "we need to remove hate speech", because as Neil Gaiman once wrote:

 

Actually, the entire "why defend freedom of icky speech" is a great read and I highly recommend it.

Are we really down to comparing the Indian Govt. to the CCP? There's no way the Indian Govt. can possibly think totalitarianism will ever be a successful endeavour in a country with over 1 billion people where its not been established before.

 

Again though, I don't actually disagree with anything you said, I'm just not 100% sure that's what's happening here.

 

Not saying it isn't happening, I'll just keep a bit of healthy scepticism until I see firm evidence to back it up.

[Rohith_Kumar_Sp]

13 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

 

Again though, I don't actually disagree with anything you said, I'm just not 100% sure that's what's happening here.

 

Not saying it isn't happening, I'll just keep a bit of healthy scepticism until I see firm evidence to back it up.

Boiling frog. 

[Mark Kaine]

8 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

Ok, I'll admit that is a bit Orwellian.

it sounds really bad but I've been saying this a long time now - also due to experience I made obviously, the internet must be regulated a lot more harshly way too many people hide behind a 'user name' with the only intention to do things they would never do in rl (which to me is the definition of actually 'trolling' and I don't condone this behavior at all. I know sometimes people will 'troll' just to be funny but this isn't what I'm talking about, I'm talking more about stalking, doxing, etc, which is an actual problem and platforms in general have very little against it, cause, people will 'just make a new account' anyways) 

[wamred]

11 hours ago, Rohith_Kumar_Sp said:

With growing heat amongst users resorting to take it to social media and seeking foreign influence for affairs that are taking place in India, the govt has decided to tackle it by censoring the content instead.

Similar to linus's recent video about censorship in China which was released yesterday, India today has announced its gonna mandate all online media and social companies to remove  content that Indian govt doesn't like similar to linus's "Chinese Steam"
 

 

 

This also means its a pink slip for the govt to remove any content they don't like
 

Source : https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/technology/new-it-rules-social-media-platforms-must-remove-content-within-36-hours-of-govt-order-6572181.html

Along with the Social censorships, India's govt also has ordered all OTTs to censor all forms of explicit content 

Govt Launches New Classification Ratings, Grievance Redressal Framework For OTT Platforms in India

When people are competent, they reform. When they’re incompetent, they ban.

Source : 

 

https://www.news18.com/news/tech/govt-launches-new-classification-ratings-grievance-redressal-framework-for-ott-platforms-in-india-3472847.html

 

This is dangerous ideals 

[thechinchinsong]

3 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

Preach.

 

Are we really down to comparing the Indian Govt. to the CCP? There's no way the Indian Govt. can possibly think totalitarianism will ever be a successful endeavour in a country with over 1 billion people where its not been established before.

 

If the whole world is going insane, then its completely within the realm of possibility that the Indian Government can think totalitarianism can be a successful endeavor, especially if they think it's best for their country.

[JZStudios]

8 hours ago, Rohith_Kumar_Sp said:

https://www.eiu.com/n/campaigns/democracy-index-2020/

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Ehh. It's a rule of thumb I suppose. Reading the Wiki there's not much on what actually goes into the questions or what they are, and then it just says it's assessed by "experts." They apparently don't divulge the questions asked nor the assessors, nor the amount of assessors.

 

6 hours ago, StDragon said:

Oh, there's no doubt we are in an era of collective madness. The whole world has practically gone insane.

Well that's just offensive to the clinically insane.

 

6 hours ago, Kisai said:

Those are completely different platforms with completely different audiences. Twitter is a shouting match between progressives and anyone who doesn't share the group-think. Nobody listens to each other, they just shout into the void. Facebook is the other way around, with every echo chamber locked off into it's own box. In that regard Discord is evolving into Facebook.

Potayto potahto. Every time I find myself on reddit trying to find an answer to a question I begin to question the intelligence of humanity and the meaning of life. It's all mindless drivel swirling in a cesspool of short lived hysteria.

 

5 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

I call that being "offended by proxy", being offended by something that doesn't really concern you and/or on behalf of someone else and I 100% agree its a problem.

Actually it's become a problem at work when I joke with coworkers. I can't call someone a gingersnap, despite them being fine with it, because someone else might've been upset on their behalf. I mean, I get having the black friend and we say racist jokes to each other being in hushed tones, but calling someone a gingersnap? In high school there was a girl who was upset at me despite my never having talked to her, because me and two other guys treated each other like assholes in a jovial way.

 

5 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

Are we really down to comparing the Indian Govt. to the CCP? There's no way the Indian Govt. can possibly think totalitarianism will ever be a successful endeavour in a country with over 1 billion people where its not been established before.

I don't know why you think the population amount means it can't be turned into an authoritarian regime.

[Kisai]

1 hour ago, JZStudios said:

 

 

Potayto potahto. Every time I find myself on reddit trying to find an answer to a question I begin to question the intelligence of humanity and the meaning of life. It's all mindless drivel swirling in a cesspool of short lived hysteria.

 

All user-generated forums eventually degenerate into this either because:

a) echo chambering and gatekeeping

b) lack of moderating

c) over-moderating

 

Echo chambering is the result of gatekeeping, eg keeping liberal and conservative voices separate and yelling in their own corners. Occasionally they yell at each other when they smell betrayal.

 

Lack-of-moderating is what happens when there are no, or few moderators for the population on the forum, and becomes unmanageable..

 

Over-moderating is always a power-trip/corporate-policy-taken-literately. Over-moderating forums, such as news sites, tend suppress all voices.

 

Reddit is however closer to 4chan than it is CNN. Reddit get's it's wrists wrapped more often as a consequence of "trying to be a legitimate site" and play in Twitter&Facebook social media pool.

 

Another problem that comes from under-moderation is that if the forum used to be an official site/source, and turns into "owner has abandoned it for greener pastures" , it, always gets taken over by trolls.

 

Anyone that's been moderating or administrating forums for years can tell you that if the "owner" disappears, the right thing to do is shut it down.

 

[Rohith_Kumar_Sp]

2 hours ago, JZStudios said:

Ehh. It's a rule of thumb I suppose. Reading the Wiki there's not much on what actually goes into the questions or what they are, and then it just says it's assessed by "experts." They apparently don't divulge the questions asked nor the assessors, nor the amount of assessors.

 

Well that's just offensive to the clinically insane.

 

Potayto potahto. Every time I find myself on reddit trying to find an answer to a question I begin to question the intelligence of humanity and the meaning of life. It's all mindless drivel swirling in a cesspool of short lived hysteria.

 

Actually it's become a problem at work when I joke with coworkers. I can't call someone a gingersnap, despite them being fine with it, because someone else might've been upset on their behalf. I mean, I get having the black friend and we say racist jokes to each other being in hushed tones, but calling someone a gingersnap? In high school there was a girl who was upset at me despite my never having talked to her, because me and two other guys treated each other like assholes in a jovial way.

 

I don't know why you think the population amount means it can't be turned into an authoritarian regime.

i guess you could say you are the textbook definition of being ignorant on the matters that takes in a foreign country without stepping a foot in it. 

[Lightwreather]

I feel that this thread will either be locked in some time or moved to another channel soon.

[PCGuy_5960]

12 hours ago, Sauron said:

People often forget that copyright law is even stricter than this in most western countries. Even in 'murica, despite all the larping about freeze peach.

I mean, copyright doesn't have much to do with free speech. You're free to use your favorite star wars quotes in any way you like and you won't have the mouse and his lawyers knocking on your door. What you can't do is rip off someone else's work and profit off of it, which I think is fair, but yes, I do think copyright laws can be too strict at times.

3 hours ago, Kisai said:

All user-generated forums eventually degenerate into this either because:

a) echo chambering and gatekeeping

b) lack of moderating

c) over-moderating

 

Echo chambering is the result of gatekeeping, eg keeping liberal and conservative voices separate and yelling in their own corners. Occasionally they yell at each other when they smell betrayal.

 

Lack-of-moderating is what happens when there are no, or few moderators for the population on the forum, and becomes unmanageable..

 

Over-moderating is always a power-trip/corporate-policy-taken-literately. Over-moderating forums, such as news sites, tend suppress all voices.

 

Reddit is however closer to 4chan than it is CNN. Reddit get's it's wrists wrapped more often as a consequence of "trying to be a legitimate site" and play in Twitter&Facebook social media pool.

 

Another problem that comes from under-moderation is that if the forum used to be an official site/source, and turns into "owner has abandoned it for greener pastures" , it, always gets taken over by trolls.

 

Anyone that's been moderating or administrating forums for years can tell you that if the "owner" disappears, the right thing to do is shut it down.

 

I'd say another reason (at least in the context of politics) is that most people don't really want an actual discussion with the "other side", they see them as the enemy who needs to be defeated. Their team is always right and the other is always wrong.