Is there still a demo scene?

[tikker]

7 minutes ago, Spindel said:

Fair comment.

 

But insane optimization (and cheating to get results looking/sounding more impressive than the really are  ) and pushing the hardware to its limits where kind of the same thing initially.
 

I’m fully aware that, as I said in a previous post, that in example .kkrieger wasn’t blowing people away in the visual or audio department at the time. The impressive thing with that demo was that it this what it did and you could have 14 copies of it on a single floppy. 
 

I guess it has (if I were to guess, could be wrong) somewhat died out for PC perhaps because the hardware has become such a beast. Back in the day you had 1 MB and the hardware could only do so much, so there was a big incentive to optimize to insane levels to make it fit and to make it run (e.g. Rollercoaster Tycoon was written in ASM).

 

Nowadays it doesn't really matter anymore if your game is 15 GB or 150 GB, and most hardware can run pretty much all games at some acceptable level. This might be a bit of a vicious circle, as nobody wants to be "that guy" that doesn't run ultra settings on all hardware. Top that off with big pressure from publishers and possibly increased diversity in systems, and optimization tends to not get as much attention. Every now and then a gem like DOOM pops up though to teach everyone a lesson on how it should be done.

[Xavier Yvonne Zanzibari0]

On 2/23/2021 at 2:01 PM, Spindel said:

I made a post in the Mars rover thread about how much you can get out of computer hardware if you try to push. 

 

In that thread I also linked to this Amiga demo that fit into a 880 kb floppy and ran on an A500. 

 

As I see it today most computers have so much performance and we rarely see software that pushes the hardware to the limit, it's rather the opposite a lot of software is really poorly optimized just because the coders can be lazy with all the spare capacity (meaning that if a piece of software is pushing the hardware to it's limits it usually isn't to produce fantastic results, it's just really poorly optimized and don't utilize the hardware really that well). 

 

Another more recent demo scene product is .kkrieger from 2004. It's a FPS game that takes up 96 kb disk space. This was made possible by procedurally* generated everything (if I remember it correctly it took some 300-400 MB of ram when loaded when I tried it back in the day).

 

Is there any modern day demo scene with cool things pushing the capabilities of computer hardware?b

The short answer: YES!
The long answer: YEEEEEEEEESSSSSSS!!!!! (ASCI1!)

The short answer is usually a 4k demo, where 4k does not necessarily stand for the video output, but the number of ASCII encoded bytes may be used for the binary executable.

There are also 4K4k demos. AKA 4k4 demos.
4k4 is especially popular on sub 4k machines (2600, Oddyssey.. basically all 1st gen consoles and homecomputers)

4k4A is more for Amiga and Genesis type machines.
32k5 for x86/x64

AAAAND then there's the tech demos that inspires them at Intel, AMD, ARM, Apple and the likes. ;-)

 

On 2/23/2021 at 2:01 PM, Spindel said:

 

 

*procedural generation does not mean, unlike what a lot of people on the internet seem to think, that stuff is randomly generated. What it means is that you do not store the assets (like textures and geometry) themselves but you store the instructions (procedure) on how to create the assets and thus reduce storage space needed (.kkrieger was basically just a file of 96 kb of math).

 

 

 

[Xavier Yvonne Zanzibari0]

Just now, Xavier Yvonne Zanzibari0 said:

The short answer: YES!
The long answer: YEEEEEEEEESSSSSSS!!!!! (ASCI1!)

The short answer is usually a 4k demo, where 4k does not necessarily stand for the video output, but the number of ASCII encoded bytes may be used for the binary executable.

There are also 4K4k demos. AKA 4k4 demos.
4k4 is especially popular on sub 4k machines (2600, Oddyssey.. basically all 1st gen consoles and homecomputers)

4k4A is more for Amiga and Genesis type machines.
32k5 for x86/x64

AAAAND then there's the tech demos that inspires them at Intel, AMD, ARM, Apple and the likes.

 

 

 

Best place to go (imho) is pouet's demoscene site:
https://www.pouet.net/

My personal favorite is a 4k demo by RGBA &TBC ca:lled Elevated.
I use it to test my decoder quality:

 

[igormp]

18 minutes ago, DriftMan said:

If you are interested in pushing hardware to its limits, I can share with you a couple of projects I've been checking from time to time -> porting the amazing Fuzix OS to the amazing ESP8266 (got mine for less than $2)

Running an OS on a micro?

Beware, a shitty linux running on top of an ARM emulator running on an 8bit ATmega1284p: https://dmitry.gr/?r=05.Projects&proj=07. Linux on 8bit

[GDRRiley]

there is for older PC but for newer systems no.

[Mark Kaine]

2 hours ago, Spindel said:

I can agree to some degree that the mod scene has some similarities to the demo scene. Biggest difference, as I see it is that (the most ambitious mods) more push a specific game engine/piece of software to its limits not the hardware so to say.

yeh, it's not exactly the same thing but I'm definitely getting similar vibes from it and there are definitely similarities. 

 

[Helpful Tech Witch]

On 2/23/2021 at 7:01 AM, Spindel said:

Is there any modern day demo scene with cool things pushing the capabilities of computer hardware?

 

https://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/microsoft-flight-simulator

[Xavier Yvonne Zanzibari0]

1 hour ago, igormp said:

Running an OS on a micro?

Beware, a shitty linux running on top of an ARM emulator running on an 8bit ATmega1284p: https://dmitry.gr/?r=05.Projects&proj=07. Linux on 8bit

*gulp*

shuffles off towards the rear of the room and makes an elegant emergency exit.

Ed.Dub.Has.Left
ed: editor

dub: virtualDub

Has: Haptic assessoiries.

Left: Cuz I'm left handed, don't hold it against me please!

 

it runs TT030 native code emulated in arm, so long as you don't use the poor vme bus for anything other than your display card you're good there.

But if need must be you can address the memory as a cache and simulate swapping on a BluRay recorder. Mind you, that BluRay recorder eats through BluRay R/Ws like Trump eats McDonalds.

 

[Xavier Yvonne Zanzibari0]

1 hour ago, Mark Kaine said:

yeh, it's not exactly the same thing but I'm definitely getting similar vibes from it and there are definitely similarities. 

 

What's the first thing you do when you get a new computer from your boss?

1. Stress test.

2. Smoke test.
3. Acid test.

If those three didn't completely destroy your setup: you did not overclock it enough.

What's the second thing you do when you get a new computer form your boss.

1. Unstress your colleagues, play zen music. Hum to them. Hug them. Wipe their tears.
2. Open a window to let out the smoke.

3. Put salt and or sand on the acid, make sure the Alien hasn't left any pods.

[Mark Kaine]

27 minutes ago, Xavier Yvonne Zanzibari0 said:

What's the first thing you do when you get a new computer from your boss?

1. Stress test.

2. Smoke test.
3. Acid test.

If those three didn't completely destroy your setup: you did not overclock it enough.

What's the second thing you do when you get a new computer form your boss.

1. Unstress your colleagues, play zen music. Hum to them. Hug them. Wipe their tears.
2. Open a window to let out the smoke.

3. Put salt and or sand on the acid, make sure the Alien hasn't left any pods.

Reminds of this for some reason (I just read they had unlocks... I don't think I unlocked anything ) 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linger_in_Shadows

 

Wait or maybe it was this, i dont remember anymore...

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.detuned

 

 

[Kilrah]

6 hours ago, igormp said:

Here are some cool recent demos that I've seen:

 

This was awesome, and so are that team's other entries! Music is phat too...

They do give the 3080 a run for its money at 4K60

 

Grr at browsers and anti-malware always flagging highly packed stuff...

[LogicalDrm]

So I was on mobile with my previous reply, so I'll expand it bit more. I'm not coder, digital artist, music maker or game dev. When I got introduced to demoscene back in 2007, it was as gamer, participating the largest LAN festival in Finland. Which happens to be among the longest running and biggest demoparties in the world, Assembly. I had no idea what the demoscene was about, but have learned a lot since then. I can appreciate it as what it looks for someone without the technical background, digital art. Last time I was visiting Assembly in 2019, I spent most of the time by watching demo competitions.

 

The point I see in demoscene is in challenge it brings. Yes, they have better hardware to use every year, so the limits are not with hardware, but talents of the groups and individuals making things. Or if they want, they can take something that makes things more limitting. Be it size limit with 4k and 64k (and other size limitations) or using obscure hardware or coding language.

 

On 2/24/2021 at 8:34 PM, DriftMan said:

I honestly think the demoscene it's doomed, it won't disappear but however it will be quite limited, I believe most of the devs just switched to other fields to use their skills in something more practical

I would argue quite differently. For Europeans, the scene is still active. So many of those who are working in tech fields, be it game devs, coders or even teachers have at some point been in event or seen the works. So at least in here many game dev students participate in events to show their works. Its good practice with set time limits, requirements, group work and so on.

 

So similar to what gaming is for others, to some its coding for fun of it.

 

On 2/24/2021 at 9:49 PM, GDRRiley said:

there is for older PC but for newer systems no.

Uhm, really? I mean sure, the C64 and Amiga demos are part of the scene, but I wouldn't make that tight assessment about it.

[Spindel]

LTT should make a video or video series about both the history and current standing of the demo scene. And some how I feel it should be written and hosted by @GabenJr. It’s a bit fringe topic wise for LTT and probably more the kind of content NostalgiaNerd or 8-bitguy would do. But I would probably welcome an LTT take on it.

[LogicalDrm]

6 hours ago, Spindel said:

LTT should make a video or video series about both the history and current standing of the demo scene. And some how I feel it should be written and hosted by @GabenJr. It’s a bit fringe topic wise for LTT and probably more the kind of content NostalgiaNerd or 8-bitguy would do. But I would probably welcome an LTT take on it.

Doesn't hurt to try, suggestions topic:

 

I do feel like Level1 might be better outlet for this. They did have coding competition (Devember) of their own just last year.

 

The Finns made their own documentary couple years ago. Mainly focusing on scene in the early 90s when local scene was booming.