Apple being sued for refusing to help iTunes gift card scam victims

[Bombastinator]

7 minutes ago, captain_to_fire said:

Apple is not obligated to do so. For one, they’re not a financial institution. 

Incorrect.  The WERE not a financial institution. Apple Pay and apple wallet changed that.

[Bombastinator]

19 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

And that’s all that matters. Don’t buy gift cards on eBay. It’ll never end well. 

Partial quoting never ends well either. Especially when the part skipped starts with “because”

 

The scammees believed they were protected because of statements made by Apple. 

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Bombastinator said:

Incorrect.  The WERE not a financial institution. Apple Pay and apple wallet changed that.

Even if they weren't,  all gift cards can be traced from the point and method of purchase right through to what they were spent on,  apple know exactly which account they were applied to and they are telling customers a big porky pie and protecting the criminals running these scams.   But we know why, they look to make hundreds of millions of dollars a year out of those scams so why would they try and stop them?  Fucking money hungry corporations again.

[wanderingfool2]

2 hours ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

Look, when any credit card company can do this, Apple sure as hell can as well. I'm tired of people holding them to the lowest possible standard and constantly making excuses for just being assholes.

I would say it depends where the money is.  If Apple actually is profiting off of the scams by not shutting down accounts then I would say this has a case.

 

With that said, Apple shouldn't be like credit card companies.  Credit card companies, when there are fraudulent claims that are reversed target the business who accepted them (whether or not they knew about it).

 

My guess of what is happening is a flow like this.  In-store app is purchased by one not controlled by the scammers.  The in-store item is then sold to remake partial of what was spent.

[Bombastinator]

2 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

I would say it depends where the money is.  If Apple actually is profiting off of the scams by not shutting down accounts then I would say this has a case.

 

With that said, Apple shouldn't be like credit card companies.  Credit card companies, when there are fraudulent claims that are reversed target the business who accepted them (whether or not they knew about it).

 

My guess of what is happening is a flow like this.  In-store app is purchased by one not controlled by the scammers.  The in-store item is then sold to remake partial of what was spent.

I think they should.  I think debit cards should be like credit cards too.  Credit cards have different laws than other types of almost identical things because when credit cards first came out the companies made a mostake.  They were careful to not aim abusive practices they aimed at everyone else at senators to hide what they did.  The problem was they still aimed them at their families and the government found out and took a good look at what they were doing.  The results were credit cards were made safe.  It should have applied to everything like a credit card but the companies had learned and were careful to make instruments that were almost like a credit card but not to evade the laws so they could abuse people. And of course they lay off legislators families now so they don’t notice. 

[Warin]

Why not sue Calve as well? We see far more people trying to buy massive amounts of steam cards than iTunes cards. To the point that our system won’t allow more than 100  dollars in steam cards to be activated on a single transaction.

 

I think it is disingenuous to sue Apple for something that they are only tangentially involved in, in an attempt to recover money from Apple rather than spending the time and effort into busting the actual scammers. I do think Apple should be help law enforcement track down fraudulently obtained funds though.

[NZKshatriya]

If you are stupid and fall for scams, you shouldn't be entitled to freebies.

[Bombastinator]

9 minutes ago, NZKshatriya said:

If you are stupid and fall for scams, you shouldn't be entitled to freebies.

Everyone is stupid and falls for scams.  Even you. Everyone is “stupid” when they’re not paying attention, and almost no one can do that all the time everywhere and stay sane.  Hyper vigilance creates insanity.   This is one of the secrets of the problems of pure capitalism.  It assumes perfect information and perfect behavior instantly all the time.  Doesn’t make allowances for time.  Pure capitalism was used in the us once.  It worked so poorly it nearly killed the country in something like 20 years. 

The claim is that Apple was giving out false information which resulted in losses not that they refused to pay. 

[Letgomyleghoe]

6 hours ago, Rune said:

Age is not an excuse for ignorance. Anyone can be sick at any time. I have no pity for these people.

very self focused i see, imagine growing up in a world without tech, not knowing how any of this works, getting a phone call from the fbi, what do you htink theyre gonna do? you gotta think man, its a bunch of bullshit.

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, Warin said:

Why not sue Calve as well? We see far more people trying to buy massive amounts of steam cards than iTunes cards. To the point that our system won’t allow more than 100  dollars in steam cards to be activated on a single transaction.

 

I think it is disingenuous to sue Apple for something that they are only tangentially involved in, in an attempt to recover money from Apple rather than spending the time and effort into busting the actual scammers. I do think Apple should be help law enforcement track down fraudulently obtained funds though.

I would have agreed, except when they outright told consumers there was nothing they could do they lost my support.

 

Had they said we can't refund the money but we can tell law enforcement who took it if you make a report, that would have been the most acceptable response for all concerned.

[Rune]

1 hour ago, Letgomyleghoe said:

very self focused i see, imagine growing up in a world without tech, not knowing how any of this works, getting a phone call from the fbi, what do you htink theyre gonna do? you gotta think man, its a bunch of bullshit.

I would question if I had done anything wrong, and if not, tell them to go stuff themselves. I don't need tech to know whether or not a federal agency can 'demand' payment in untrackable non standard currency. Its common fucking sense.

[Kisai]

8 hours ago, avg123 said:

Summary

Apple is being sued for allegedly refusing to help those who have fallen victim to a iTunes gift card scam. An 11-count class action lawsuit has been filed against the company.

Apple is accused of lying when it says that there is no way to trace or refund the value of the cards 

 

Quotes

 

My thoughts

I really hate these scammers who target the elderly and Apple should make changes to how these cards work to stop any such scams. If it takes a lawsuit to make it happen, so be it. It is not just an Apple problem, these scammers use all kinds of gift cards

 

Sources

https://9to5mac.com/2020/07/20/itunes-gift-card-scam/

The thing is, the people who say they were scammed, can not prove they were scammed. Those cards may be trade multiple hands and finally end up on eBay to launder them out, while the real criminal got away with cash. It doesn't even matter if the app developer was in on it.

 

If Apple starts refunding those, then instead of a few lawsuits, they end up with hundreds of small claims lawsuits from both the people who spent it and the people who have the transactions reversed on their apps.

 

It's a lose-lose situation and really the problem here is that the cards could be bought at all.

 

Cards, gift cards. Should only be purchased with cash, which means it lets the retailer off the hook if they only permit them to be bought with cash. If they permit them to be bought with credit or debit, that transaction might be reversed on them. Stores like gift cards because they are free money, and that free money earns interest, and the person holding onto it doesn't get that benefit.

 

So what that means is WHERE the cards should be purchased matters, and the value. Any value over $10 should not be available in grocery stores, corner stores, pharmacies, etc. Large values should only be available at the store, and only redeemable at the same store, or locked to an account email address. This ensures that the same store sees the ID of both the buyer of the card and the user of the card and thus any law enforcement action can ask to see who bought and used it. If you wish to send your grandkids a gift card and some money have them use paypal and avoid this problem.

 

[Letgomyleghoe]

21 minutes ago, Rune said:

I would question if I had done anything wrong, and if not, tell them to go stuff themselves. I don't need tech to know whether or not a federal agency can 'demand' payment in untrackable non standard currency. Its common fucking sense.

youre also, i assume, not elderly.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Kisai said:

The thing is, the people who say they were scammed, can not prove they were scammed. Those cards may be trade multiple hands and finally end up on eBay to launder them out, while the real criminal got away with cash. It doesn't even matter if the app developer was in on it.

 

If Apple starts refunding those, then instead of a few lawsuits, they end up with hundreds of small claims lawsuits from both the people who spent it and the people who have the transactions reversed on their apps.

 

It's a lose-lose situation and really the problem here is that the cards could be bought at all.

 

Cards, gift cards. Should only be purchased with cash, which means it lets the retailer off the hook if they only permit them to be bought with cash. If they permit them to be bought with credit or debit, that transaction might be reversed on them. Stores like gift cards because they are free money, and that free money earns interest, and the person holding onto it doesn't get that benefit.

 

So what that means is WHERE the cards should be purchased matters, and the value. Any value over $10 should not be available in grocery stores, corner stores, pharmacies, etc. Large values should only be available at the store, and only redeemable at the same store. This ensures that the same store sees the ID of both the buyer of the card and the user of the card and thus any law enforcement action can ask to see who bought and used it. If you wish to send your grandkids a gift card and some money have them use paypal and avoid this problem.

 

 

 

Its not a lose lose, they are capable of tracing the cards use from purchase to which account they were redeemed to.  The law is quite clear, if you receive stolen goods you are asked where you got them,  If you can say ebay and show the purchase history then the police have another person to track down.  But in this case apple aren't doing anything, in fact they are doing worse by lying about what they can do.    Apple is actively lying about what they can do and trying to make the problem go away rather than involve law enforcement.

[Bombastinator]

31 minutes ago, Rune said:

I would question if I had done anything wrong, and if not, tell them to go stuff themselves. I don't need tech to know whether or not a federal agency can 'demand' payment in untrackable non standard currency. Its common fucking sense.

Ah.  so flat refusal to think.  One forgets how sophomoric the young are.  “Common fucking sense” is rarely common and frequently isn’t sense. 

[wanderingfool2]

5 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

I think they should.  I think debit cards should be like credit cards too.  Credit cards have different laws than other types of almost identical things because when credit cards first came out the companies made a mostake.  They were careful to not aim abusive practices they aimed at everyone else at senators to hide what they did.  The problem was they still aimed them at their families and the government found out and took a good look at what they were doing.  The results were credit cards were made safe.  It should have applied to everything like a credit card but the companies had learned and were careful to make instruments that were almost like a credit card but not to evade the laws so they could abuse people. And of course they lay off legislators families now so they don’t notice. 

The issue again though is credit cards and gift cards are two separate beasts and it allows credit card companies to side with the consumer.  Another good example is ebay, they side on side of buyers more often than not.  Similar with credit cards, they side with the customer.  They punish the businesses to keep the customers happy (as they make their money from the consumers, and businesses have effectively no choice).  An example being at one place I worked, there was over a $1000 contract (customer ID'ed and signed), they did a chargeback and we had to take the hit from it even after providing proof of service.  If Apple did the same, they would be punishing developers.

 

The issue with this as well, it means Apple would have to sort out what is and what isn't a scam.  Otherwise, people will "fall" for a scam by a friend, then not report it to the authorities (so the friend doesn't get in trouble),

 

I'm not saying that Apple shouldn't do something, but they cannot be held to the same standards as credit card companies, since there is a lot more about it that they just do not control.  If anything, the retailers selling the cards should be more cautious about it and inform people buying the gift cards.  (i.e. prevent the scam as it's happening).  On that note as well, does anyone know whether retailers get a cut for selling gift cards?

 

There are lots of ways for scammers to cash out of a system like this, and if Apple were to reverse all scams I wouldn't be surprised if it started costing them money (if lets say it was used for content scams, I am guessing they would still have to pay out).

 

3 hours ago, mr moose said:

Apple is actively lying about what they can do and trying to make the problem go away rather than involve law enforcement.

I actually haven't seen anything where Apple is lying yet.  The actual court document and submitted Apple issue is that the funds on the card are often gone prior to the authorities or Apple being contacted.

 

 

 

 

[mr moose]

7 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

 

 

I actually haven't seen anything where Apple is lying yet.  The actual court document and submitted Apple issue is that the funds on the card are often gone prior to the authorities or Apple being contacted.

 

 

 

 

https://www.scribd.com/document/469674861/Carl-Barrett-Polston-Martin-Watson-Reodriguez-2-v-Apple#from_embed

 

page 3.

 

The complaint clearly shows the apple website that claims once the card numbers are provided to the scammer they are spent before apple or law enforcement can be contacted and the funds are irretrievable.  This is contrary to fact as they can reverse any transaction and they retain 30% of it themselves.   This is literally apple telling people don't provide the numbers and if you do don't bother calling them or the police.  I think there is a certain amount of truth to the first part of the complaint were it is shown apple make a significant amount of money from these activities and thus don't want to investigate or help prevent it from happening.

 

 

 

 

[NZKshatriya]

Once someone buys something from a seller, the business with the seller is concluded excepting for warranty issues covered by the sales contract.

 

What the buyer does with the item they bought does not come back to the original seller.

 

So, Apple has no legal responsibility to those who were scammed

 

This ain't rocket science.

 

 

 

[Bombastinator]

7 minutes ago, NZKshatriya said:

Once someone buys something from a seller, the business with the seller is concluded excepting for warranty issues covered by the sales contract.

 

What the buyer does with the item they bought does not come back to the original seller.

 

So, Apple has no legal responsibility to those who were scammed

 

This ain't rocket science.

 

 

 

This is the point.  The claim is effectively an issue of false advertising by the seller.  The claim seems to be Apple claimed something about its product that wasn’t true.  Caused the buyer to buy a product they though was different than it was.  The case may be lost of course.  Many cases are.

[wanderingfool2]

9 hours ago, mr moose said:

The complaint clearly shows the apple website that claims once the card numbers are provided to the scammer they are spent before apple or law enforcement can be contacted and the funds are irretrievable.  This is contrary to fact as they can reverse any transaction and they retain 30% of it themselves.   This is literally apple telling people don't provide the numbers and if you do don't bother calling them or the police.  I think there is a certain amount of truth to the first part of the complaint were it is shown apple make a significant amount of money from these activities and thus don't want to investigate or help prevent it from happening.

No.  That is the defendants putting words in Apple's mouth and badly reading the meaning of a warning page about scams.  The literal wording on Apples website is as follows

Quote

Never provide the numbers on the back of a Gift Card to someone you do not know. Once those numbers are provided to the scammers, the funds on the card will likely be spent before you are able to contact Apple or law enforcement. 

They literal say on their site if you fall victim to call them, and there isn't anything there saying they wouldn't be able to refund or do something.  I would also like t see where they pulled the $93.5 million over 2015-2019 (From the data that I found from FTC, I only got about $65 million...but I could be looking at the wrong numbers and it did require extrapolation backwards based on the 2018 breakdown)  Some of the FTC data actually comes from company reported numbers as well (so their "10%" of reporting could potentially be a lot lower than it should be).  Either way, based on the amount of money Apple makes each year, the scamming side of things likely equates to a smaller fraction of what they actually make.

 

Really the focus should be more on the local stores that are selling things like $500 gift cards to people.  A transaction that large should instantly set off red flags to the teller, and they should intervene before it even gets to Apple.

 

 

[Guest willies leg]

Yeah, it always surprises me how Apple refuses to help victims of theft and scams.

For example, if your phone is stolen, they know exactly where it is and what it's doing. They refuse to help out at all. Weird, isn't it?

 

Of course in this case, they are buying Apple product with Apple gift cards obtained through a scam. They know exactly who the people are redeeming those cards.

 

Reminds me of a friend of mine, his debit card got stolen and the crook used it to pay their electric and cable bill. They knew exactly who it was, nothing happened to the crooks though.

[CarlBar]

16 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

Ah.  so flat refusal to think.  One forgets how sophomoric the young are.  “Common fucking sense” is rarely common and frequently isn’t sense. 

 

Not only that but it makes assumptions only an utter idiot or a complete anarchist would. The reality is the kind of response espoused there would in many countries in the situations these scams cover pick you up a pretty hefty non-compliance fine, or in more totalitarian countries get you thrown in jail. The sort of people targeted by these scheme's can't afford to pay that kind of fine off. In the end even if people are suspicious they'll often pay because the consequences of not paying in the low percentage of cases where it's genuine are so much worse.

 

Also they can be fiendishly clever at times.

 

I came close once to getting caught out by one of those hijack your PC scams because the called me claiming to be my ISP calling be back about a tech support request when i was expecting a call back, and they ran me through several steps my ISP had previously run me through with the same issue. It was only very late in the process when they wanted me to instal a specific program that i got suspicious and twigged it was a scam caller.

 

I also had a relative get caught out more recently by someone claiming to be the tax office calling about issues with her tax returns. Given the time of year when this happened thats exactly when such a call would come in and it had happened occasionally before that the tax office would call about issues with the returns, I wasn't there for the call, (or i would have caught it), but from all accounts it sounded exactly like a normal tax office call right up till the payment method.

 

[Kisai]

 

17 hours ago, mr moose said:

Its not a lose lose, they are capable of tracing the cards use from purchase to which account they were redeemed to.  The law is quite clear, if you receive stolen goods you are asked where you got them,  If you can say ebay and show the purchase history then the police have another person to track down.  But in this case apple aren't doing anything, in fact they are doing worse by lying about what they can do.    Apple is actively lying about what they can do and trying to make the problem go away rather than involve law enforcement.

How to defraud a store:

1) Buy the gift card

2) Spend the gift card

3) Claim you lost the gift card and it was stolen

Now you just double-spent a gift card, repeat at different stores so they don't catch on.

 

That's the problem.

 

As soon as a code is redeemed, it's considered spent, and thus if the code is not redeemed before it's reported stolen, the code can be deleted from the database and no double-spend happens. 

 

The merchant does not care if it's stolen if they don't have to pay out of pocket for it. 

 

The internet, makes it so much easier to defraud a store, because you can go straight from "steal thing" to "list thing in another country"

 

[Thaldor]

But in reality, how much can Apple (or any other company that has gift cards) do?

If scammers were idiots (like the mentioned "devs" buying cards and spending them on their own app) then probably a lot but couple intact brain cells and there really isn't much Apple can do. Like steal or some other way get a ton of gift cards, spent them to buy Apple product from store, sell the said product and the spent gift cards; In which part Apple really required someones real credentials and how much Apple can do? You don't need to show your ID or any card to buy a phone or laptop with gift cards (the clerk might question about using a ton of $20-$50 gift cards to buy the device but people have occasions when they can legally come by a ton of gift cards and might even want to keep the used ones), if the scammer doesn't even use the device by themselves they don't even need AppleID (which doesn't require your actual real infos to be input), if they are even smarter they will wait couple weeks so there isn't even security footage of them left before starting to cash in with the device and the spent cards. So, how is it Apples fault someone got scammed and what can they do about it?

 

E: Also dismiss any and all methods that would make a gift card not a gift card. As in requiring them to spent at the same location by the same person identified with ID.

[Kisai]

1 hour ago, CarlBar said:

I came close once to getting caught out by one of those hijack your PC scams because the called me claiming to be my ISP calling be back about a tech support request when i was expecting a call back, and they ran me through several steps my ISP had previously run me through with the same issue. It was only very late in the process when they wanted me to instal a specific program that i got suspicious and twigged it was a scam caller.

 

You do realize that this is how enterprise tech support that is outsourced right? The Indian call centers have their own RAT (Remote Access Tool) system and you run it and confirm the tech name you are talking with when you run it so they can then access your PC, and then you monitor everything they do and can interrupt them at any point.

 

Even Dell uses them. That's why people get scammed this way, as the scammers operate in the same manner that known OEM and Enterprises do. If you're not expecting a call from a tech support, then obviously it's going to be a scam.