R.I.P. HONG KONG

[CRWND_12]

hong kong is now losing it's freedom what are your thoughts about it?

[Sauron]

Most of these are already a thing in a bunch of other countries, including the US... in fact I'm surprised stuff like wiretapping wasn't already legal in HK.

 

I'm not saying any of these are good but if they surprise you then you should take a second look at the laws in your own country, chances are there's something along those lines in there.

[HM-2]

19 minutes ago, Sauron said:

 in fact I'm surprised stuff like wiretapping wasn't already legal in HK.

I think the issue is more whose conducting it in this case. Previously investigative activities in HK were conducted primarily by the Hong Kong Police Force who are independent from the Chinese Ministry of Public Security; they were/are allowed to perform these actions in the pursuit of criminal investigations. Up until a few days ago, support for HK independence wasn't criminal but now it is.

 

The new laws effectively give the MPS and MSS (Ministry for State Security) the ability to perform activities within HK directly or indirectly, without direct oversight from the HK government, as well as extraterritorially against non-HK citizens, against anyone seen as supporting the principle of Hong Kong independence, which is a clear violation of the letter and spirit of the Sino-British Joint Declaration.

[Drama Lama]

3 hours ago, NZgamer said:

Make Hong Kong British again.

The Empire strikes back

[Delicieuxz]

You can thank the US for that.

 

The fact is that Hong Kong doesn't want to leave China:

 

2016: One in six support Hong Kong independence from China: poll

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According to the poll, released on Sunday, 17.4 percent somewhat supported or strongly supported independence for Hong Kong when its 50-year “one country, two systems” agreement, under which it is governed by Beijing, expires in 2047.

 

Another 22.9 percent were ambivalent, according to the poll, which was conducted by The Chinese University of Hong Kong’s Centre for Communication and Public Opinion Survey. Another 57.6 percent were somewhat or strongly against the idea.

 

2019: Exclusive: Hong Kongers support protester demands; minority wants independence from China - Reuters poll

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Hong Kong’s protest movement is supported by 59% of city residents polled in a survey conducted for Reuters by the Hong Kong Public Opinion Research Institute, with more than a third of respondents saying they had attended an anti-government demonstration.

 

Supporters of the protests outnumbered opponents by a ratio of nearly two to one, with 30% percent saying they were opposed. Of those polled, 57% said they favored the resignation of Carrie Lam, the city’s leader. Lam was a particular target of the anti-government demonstrations that gripped Hong Kong for most of 2019 after she attempted to push through a deeply unpopular extradition bill.

 

Nevertheless, only 17% expressed support for seeking independence from China, and 20% were opposed to “the current path of one country, two systems” - the arrangement under which Hong Kong is governed by Beijing.

 

Interesting Poll Shows Hong Kongers Not Exactly Against China

 

So, around just 17% of Hong Kongers actually want independence from China.

 

The Hong Kong public is against the Hong Kong government, but they don't want to leave China. In fact, they overwhelmingly want to remain as a part of China. The US really doesn't like that and so has been sponsoring opposition groups in Hong Kong to stir-up chaos and try to foster division between HK and the the Chinese government, hoping to provoke a HK independence movement that would occupy the Chinese government's attention and efforts, make it look worse internationally and within Hong Kong, and weaken the country overall.

 

American Gov’t, NGOs Fuel and Fund Hong Kong Anti-Extradition Protests

Hong Kong activist goes on defensive after being photographed with US consulate official

US Now Admits it is Funding “Occupy Central” in Hong Kong

Color revolutionaries of the world, unite! Hong Kong protest leader pictured with White Helmets boss

US govt payouts to Hong Kong ‘civil society groups’ revealed after funding freeze

 

The US is doing these schemes in countries all over the world all the time.

 

But despite the US' efforts, Hong Kong still isn't wanting to leave China. So, the US recently stepped-up its actions and became more direct and recently threatened to remove Hong Kong's special status which makes it an attractive destination for businesses, on the basis that HK isn't independent from China enough for the US' liking.

 

U.S. threatens to strip Hong Kong of special status amid tension with China

 

The motivation behind that move is to push Hong Kong to seek independence from China in order to preserve their wealth. The message is: Either you can be a part of China and lose your higher standard of living, or you must try to separate from China to preserve your higher standard of living. It's a threat and blackmail from the US government against Hong Kong.

 

Of course, this means that any independence movement would be artificial, and only for the purpose of avoiding punishment from the US - just like someone who is being robbed at gunpoint likely will hand over their wallet to their assailant. Just as the person being robbed doesn't actually want to hand-over their wallet to their assailant, the people of Hong Kong don't actually want to leave China.

 

China's imposition of the national security law in Hong Kong is a response to the US threat and dictation to Hong Kong that they must seek independence from China or risk losing its status as a popular international business centre.

 

 

If China and Russia threatened the native tribes in the US to declare full independence from the US or be sanctioned from international travel and business, what would the US government do - and would the US government consider it a threat to the US' national security (obviously, that's a rhetorical question)? Would the US stand-by idly and let it happen (though, the native tribes in the US deserve to declare their independence)? The US government deploys the US military and national guard for lesser threats than that.

[HM-2]

34 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

So, around just 17% of Hong Kongers actually want independence from China.

17% support for independence is a fairly significant proportion. In the context of the US, that would be the equivalent of one-and-one-third Californias looking to secede.

32 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

The US really doesn't like that and so has been sponsoring opposition groups in Hong Kong to stir-up chaos and try to foster division between HK and the the Chinese government

There's very little authoritative to suggest that this is true; whilst the US has historically leaned towards support for HK independence or at least autonomy it's been a very low priority foreign policy issue and almost everything the US has done in respect of it in recent years has been entirely reactionary. It's not a coincidence that most of the sources that assert these actions are in fact taking place are themselves direct mouthpieces of governments looking to perpetuate narratives of hostility (most notably RT). In fact I would go as far as to say your representation of the wider HK independence movement is deeply ignorant of the region's history.

 

35 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

So, the US recently stepped-up its actions and became more direct and recently threatened to remove Hong Kong's special status which makes it an attractive destination for businesses, on the basis that HK isn't independent from China enough for the US' liking.

It's not really to do with that at all; China has violated the principle of "One Country, Two Systems" which is fundamental to the special status bestowed on HK by the West. The autonomy of Hong Kong to operate without political interference from Beijing is the pretty much the sole reason that it retained special status after the UK's handover in the first place, and the net result of the law is to effectively remove that autonomy. The US response is heavy-handed inasmuch as they're utterly failing to do anything to support the people of HK but the moves to revoke special status are entirely expected and understandable.

 

39 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

China's imposition of the national security law in Hong Kong is a response to the US threat and dictation to Hong Kong that they must seek independence from China or risk losing its status as a popular international business centre.

This is quite literally backwards; China has been trying to force increasingly draconian versions of this national security law onto HK for the best part of two decades now. The prospect of the loss of special status is a direct result of the implementation of the national security law, rather than a cause of it. Had the status quo in HK been maintained as it had been for most of the preceding years then nobody would have breathed a single word in suggesting the status be revoked- as they haven't in all these years.

[Delicieuxz]

25 minutes ago, HM-2 said:

There's very little authoritative to suggest that this is true; whilst the US has historically leaned towards support for HK independence or at least autonomy it's been a very low priority foreign policy issue and almost everything the US has done in respect of it in recent years has been entirely reactionary. It's not a coincidence that most of the sources that assert these actions are in fact taking place are themselves direct mouthpieces of governments looking to perpetuate narratives of hostility (most notably RT). In fact I would go as far as to say your representation of the wider HK independence movement is deeply ignorant of the region's history.

That's a brazen allegation, considering the independent polls linked-to in my previous post showing that the Hong Kong public doesn't want to leave China, and considering the fact that RT is only a medium reporting information and not alleging it of itself without evidence. There, you're attacking a source rather than the information the source reported. And so, it looks to me like you're looking for an excuse to dismiss the claim without having to look at the information.

 

And it is far from only RT which has covered the US' funding of protest groups in Hong Kong - as shown in the links I gave in my previous post, and many elsewhere:

 

Trump Administration Freezes Funds Intended to Benefit Hong Kong Protesters

 

Trump obviously can't freeze funds to HK protesters if the US wasn't funding HK protesters in the first place.

 

HK destabilizer NED is same outfit funding anti-Duterte media

The NED Strikes Again: How Neocon Money is Funding the Hong Kong Protests

Us Exposed For Funding Last Year’s Hong Kong Protests

 

I would say it's not a coincidence that you aren't familiar with the open secret that the US has been funding the protests in Hong Kong: [1] [2] [3]

[TVwazhere]

5 hours ago, CRWND_12 said:

hong kong is now losing it's freedom what are your thoughts about it?

My thoughts are that this is a heavily political topic which goes against Community Standards. 

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No trolling or flame-bait.

• This includes topics such as AMD vs NVIDIA, "company X sucks", and political or religious debates.

That does not mean topics like this are unimportant or are not worth talking about, but that there are better places to have these discussions than here. 

 

-Topic Locked-