Which motherboard and cooler to get for 10700k?

[Silverbackk]

1 minute ago, TheDankKoosh said:

If you're willing to get decent memory and overclock/tune timings then a ryzen 8 core can get relatively close to a 9900k at a cheaper price, keep in mind that the difference between the two will be even closer depending on the resolution and gpu that you're using. For instance, I wouldn't see much difference in a 9900k if I had a 3700x since I'm using a 1080 ti at 1440p.

I already have ram that's why it doesnt make sense going for ryzen. Recently got a 2080 super to go with the new CPU (kept going out of stock so I grabbed it while I could), previously had a gtx 1080 that I sold for a good price. I also play at 1440p but i play some games like cs go that perform a decent amount better with intel. 

[TheDankKoosh]

8 minutes ago, Silverbackk said:

I already have ram that's why it doesnt make sense going for ryzen. Recently got a 2080 super to go with the new CPU (kept going out of stock so I grabbed it while I could), previously had a gtx 1080 that I sold for a good price. I also play at 1440p but i play some games like cs go that perform a decent amount better with intel. 

CS:GO actually performs better on ryzen 3000 as far as I've seen, honestly isn't a bad idea to go for either intel or amd

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, TheDankKoosh said:

Even a low power 8-pin EPS connector can do 384w sustained so provided that manufacturers use the high current version it could be done on a single 8-pin, though I believe that an 8+4 pin layout would be what most low to midrange boards use, with higher end boards using 8+8 pin.

What do you suspect the start up wattage will be?

[TheDankKoosh]

24 minutes ago, ShrimpBrime said:

What do you suspect the start up wattage will be?

Probably about 10-20% more than typical max, but that's just a peak wattage for something like half a second, nothing that could actually harm the connector or cables. I believe the 10900k will probably be doing close to 300A maxed out on ambient with proper cooling, or about 400w so a high current 8-pin could do it, though an 8+4 pin would probably be the better option.

[Bombastinator]

1 hour ago, TheDankKoosh said:

CPU's do not get close to a 100% efficient heat system due to the IHS and uneven surfaces, GPU's typically do much better in that department which is why high end gpu's with decent coolers can very effectively dissipate higher wattages without the need for water cooling, despite less or similar surface area for the cooler. Since intel is taking steps to fix die evenness and shaving off some excess, we won't be seeing a 20% increase in heat.

You mistake my meaning.  Joules in joules out..  watts in watts out.  thermodynamics is thermodynamics.  There may be more efficient movement of that heat, you may be able to put it elsewhere, that’s the whole point behind water cooling after all.  but it doesn’t change the amount.  There is no removal of it.
 

That’s thermodynamics: You can’t get ahead, you can’t break even and you can’t get out of the game.  

 

You may be able to put it beyond detection range and hide it, but it’s still there.  And with a computer that means that heat has to be dumped to the working fluid which is usually ambient air.  There are a couple edge cases where they use things like lake or seawater, but even then it’s eventually ambient air.

 

Laws of thermodynamics aren’t breakable.  You can hate them, you can tail against them, many do and have. 

[TheDankKoosh]

13 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

You mistake my meaning.  Joules in joules out..  watts in watts out.  thermodynamics is thermodynamics.  There may be more efficient movement of that heat, you may be able to put it elsewhere, that’s the whole point behind water cooling after all.  but it doesn’t change the amount.  There is no removal of it.
 

That’s thermodynamics: You can’t get ahead, you can’t break even and you can’t get out of the game.  

 

You may be able to put it beyond detection range and hide it, but it’s still there.  And with a computer that means that heat has to be dumped to the working fluid which is usually ambient air.  There are a couple edge cases where they use things like lake or seawater, but even then it’s eventually ambient air.

 

Laws of thermodynamics aren’t breakable.  You can hate them, you can tail against them, many do and have. 

I'm aware of thermodynamics and its properties, I just don't understand what this has to do with the original argument, the more efficient heat transfer system of the 10700k will make it run cooler than the 9900k despite nearly identical power consumption. This allows for more cooling options, even when overclocking, the heat will be transferred to the ambient air quicker due to this change.

[Silverbackk]

Any recommendations for z490 motherboards and cpu coolers?

[maizenblue]

12 hours ago, ki8aras said:

or you could buy a 3700x with the same money and get better performance and lower power consumption

Maybe not better performance. Roughly the same performance at 1440p and above and lower power consumption and heat and the chance tp upgrade to ryzen 4000 with the same mobo, whoch possibly will have better performance. 

[TheDankKoosh]

1 hour ago, Silverbackk said:

Any recommendations for z490 motherboards and cpu coolers?

If you're only going for a 10700k then you won't need a super beefy board I'd look around the $180-$210 range with something like the z490 tomahawk being one of my first choices. As for coolers, AIO pricing is kind of wack or out of stock right now, but I'd highly suggest the Arctic Liquid Freezer II 280mm if you want a liquid cooler, if you're fine with an air cooler, I'd suggest either a Noctua D15 or Thermalright Le Grand Macho RT since these are the highest performing air coolers that I know of

[Bombastinator]

1 hour ago, TheDankKoosh said:

I'm aware of thermodynamics and its properties, I just don't understand what this has to do with the original argument, the more efficient heat transfer system of the 10700k will make it run cooler than the 9900k despite nearly identical power consumption. This allows for more cooling options, even when overclocking, the heat will be transferred to the ambient air quicker due to this change.

Lol.  Like there’s been massive advances in heat exchanger technology.  Take a look at the front end of a model t Ford sometime.  That thing in the front is a radiator.  Not that different from what we have now.  Fans are propellers and propeller technology zenithed about 1950. Heat pipes were cute.  That was an actual advance.  20 years ago.  You seem to think you’ve found a twenty percent change?  Just in the last year?  That doesn’t have anything to do with computer coolers which haven’t changed in 20 in some cases?  That would have been the biggest news of the 21st century.  
 

it must be the “they thinned the dies” bit which HAS ALREADY BEEN ACCOUNTED FOR.  There are numerous articles online about that die thinning thing btw.  The bit you’re not mentioning is to thin one part they had to make the rest thicker.  It doesn’t matter.  They will come out and both of us will be wrong to various degrees.  
 

Let’s pretend everything you say is true.  The device transfers heat so much better than anything before it it astounds the world.

 

IT STILL PRODUCES 300 watts.  It may be able  to move that heat into the cooler faster, but the cooler tech is the same and doesn’t have this special magic sprinkle.  IT can only get rid (ie transfer into the air) so many Jules a second.  So this super heat transfer doesn’t t mean anything because at the end of the chain is a radiative convection air heat exchanger that can only do so much.
 

 

[Zberg]

3 hours ago, TheDankKoosh said:

CS:GO actually performs better on ryzen 3000 as far as I've seen, honestly isn't a bad idea to go for either intel or amd

No one should base anything on CS:GO because

 

- its a decade old, and looks terrible

- decade old systems can run it great

- the difference between modern CPU's running it (esp most recent gen) are looking at whether you can get 300 or 350 FPS, far above the max refresh you can get, and even that rate is questionable compared to 144/165 for 99% of the population that aren't Shroud.

 

CS:GO ran flawlessly on my 3rd gen i5, why is this game the zombie that will never go away lol

 

 

 

 

[Zberg]

In terms of board, I dont know if this will pan out, but gigabyte aorus master has been on point since intel 9th gen launch.  Both the z390 stuff as well as the x570 stuff, they seem to have really upped their game in the last few years.

 

So much so that Gamers nexus made a point to comment that the VRM on the aorus master was one of the best on z390, and I believe they used an aorus board to put most of the ryzen 3000 series through their paces.  

 

Granted, I never pre-order anything as that's even too much of a gamble for me, but they seem to be on a great track lately.  I am very happy with the aorus master z390.

[Guest]

I like waiting for a few bios updates on the boards before purchase when possible. Let them work out some bugs before I get it.

[Zberg]

4 minutes ago, ShrimpBrime said:

I like waiting for a few bios updates on the boards before purchase when possible. Let them work out some bugs before I get it.

Oh ya, very much so.  Especially with a new board, generation, socket etc.  I think I am most intrigued by Ryzen 4000 stuff that will come later this year, but I still wouldnt be ballsy enough to pre-order (even though they will probably be taking intel to the woodshed with that launch, and like the good 3000 CPU's will be on back order for a LONG time).  I still like to see the reviews, performance before I make the jump for CPU & board combo.  Esp because you will ideally be on that system for a couple years minimum, and most of the other stuff is easily swapped.

[TheDankKoosh]

1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

Lol.  Like there’s been massive advances in heat exchanger technology.  Take a look at the front end of a model t Ford sometime.  That thing in the front is a radiator.  Not that different from what we have now.  Fans are propellers and propeller technology zenithed about 1950. Heat pipes were cute.  That was an actual advance.  20 years ago.  You seem to think you’ve found a twenty percent change?  Just in the last year?  That doesn’t have anything to do with computer coolers which haven’t changed in 20 in some cases?  That would have been the biggest news of the 21st century.  
 

it must be the “they thinned the dies” bit which HAS ALREADY BEEN ACCOUNTED FOR.  There are numerous articles online about that die thinning thing btw.  The bit you’re not mentioning is to thin one part they had to make the rest thicker.  It doesn’t matter.  They will come out and both of us will be wrong to various degrees.  
 

Let’s pretend everything you say is true.  The device transfers heat so much better than anything before it it astounds the world.

 

IT STILL PRODUCES 300 watts.  It may be able  to move that heat into the cooler faster, but the cooler tech is the same and doesn’t have this special magic sprinkle.  IT can only get rid (ie transfer into the air) so many Jules a second.  So this super heat transfer doesn’t t mean anything because at the end of the chain is a radiative convection air heat exchanger that can only do so much.
 

 

The limit is not in the thickness of the die, but the evenness of it so that it may transfer heat to the IHS better, if the IHS were eliminated, then cooling performance would be better, even on air coolers, you're going off on some tangent about how heat cannot be transferred more efficiently despite that very thing being true when people were delidding their chips and adding liquid metal. A top end air cooler can handle 250-300w depending on the situation with efficiency of heat transfer being an important factor in that equation. Stop bringing up unrelated topics that have nothing to do with the conversation.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Zberg said:

Oh ya, very much so.  Especially with a new board, generation, socket etc.  I think I am most intrigued by Ryzen 4000 stuff that will come later this year, but I still wouldnt be ballsy enough to pre-order (even though they will probably be taking intel to the woodshed with that launch, and like the good 3000 CPU's will be on back order for a LONG time).  I still like to see the reviews, performance before I make the jump for CPU & board combo.  Esp because you will ideally be on that system for a couple years minimum, and most of the other stuff is easily swapped.

I think All my sig hardware can carry me at least 2 years longer. Have a decent supply of stuff to work with.

 

Interested in DDR5. Wait for some bugs to get worked out, maybe purchase a year after release. That's my plan at this point.

 

If Ryzen 3000 becomes available and cheap, probably head out and de-lid a couple few there as well. Tackled the first two generations, yes After Der8auer, but with better success (I've been at it longer) I haven't killed a chip in years. 

 

On my daily use front, I'm 1080 and 4K gaming with all games maxed or mostly maxed out. That's not a problem. I'm not the FPS chaser type of guy. I do that while benchmarking lol. 

[TheDankKoosh]

20 minutes ago, Zberg said:

In terms of board, I dont know if this will pan out, but gigabyte aorus master has been on point since intel 9th gen launch.  Both the z390 stuff as well as the x570 stuff, they seem to have really upped their game in the last few years.

 

So much so that Gamers nexus made a point to comment that the VRM on the aorus master was one of the best on z390, and I believe they used an aorus board to put most of the ryzen 3000 series through their paces.  

 

Granted, I never pre-order anything as that's even too much of a gamble for me, but they seem to be on a great track lately.  I am very happy with the aorus master z390.

Only thing about the Aorus Master boards is that, especially on x570, they are pretty overkill for even running maxed out chips which is why I'd suggest the tomahawk boards for balance of feature set, VRM, and price.

[Guest]

Also saddened no 4000 for my ROG B450-I. It's a plenty capable board.

[Zberg]

2 minutes ago, TheDankKoosh said:

Only thing about the Aorus Master boards is that, especially on x570, they are pretty overkill for even running maxed out chips which is why I'd suggest the tomahawk boards for balance of feature set, VRM, and price.

Agreed.  Literally had this convo with a buddy that I had advised to either go with 3700x vs 3900x for his work and gaming he does.  I was like "I love this board, looks good, awesome VRM (supposedly true of the x570 equivalent as well), but you honestly dont need x570" and talked him into a tomahawk.  He is up an running, happy, stellar performance, and saved him some bucks on that one.

[Zberg]

3 minutes ago, ShrimpBrime said:

Also saddened no 4000 for my ROG B450-I. It's a plenty capable board.

Ya; I can see their side of things and I think they stretched B450 pretty well, but probably could have stretched a little more  

[Guest]

Just now, Zberg said:

Ya; I can see their side of things and I think they stretched B450 pretty well, but probably could have stretched a little more  

Well, the way I understood it was more the motherboard manufacturers where bitching about sales and releasing newer boards made more money than writing bios for old ones...... but hey let's coat the bullshit. The bios chip is not large enough..... 

 

There where some sites that had quotes from AMD reps stating B450 would support 7nm+ (cause it's not really "new" architecture, it's simply upgraded 7nm. So in essense, nothing much different from 3000 series chips. What throw in some instruction sets, a little cache and power tweaking and of course more cores!

 

I am a believer in matching socket to chip though, try to suggest that whenever possible round' here.

[Bombastinator]

1 hour ago, TheDankKoosh said:

The limit is not in the thickness of the die, but the evenness of it so that it may transfer heat to the IHS better, if the IHS were eliminated, then cooling performance would be better, even on air coolers, you're going off on some tangent about how heat cannot be transferred more efficiently despite that very thing being true when people were delidding their chips and adding liquid metal. A top end air cooler can handle 250-300w depending on the situation with efficiency of heat transfer being an important factor in that equation. Stop bringing up unrelated topics that have nothing to do with the conversation.

*sigh* you keep talking about heat disapation not heat production.  It doesn’t matter how fast he heat flows it still has to be disapated.  This thing isn’t being delidded.  It’s actually got an unusually thick lid.  That’s part of the issue.  Also liquid metal is gallium-indium. It’s corrosive and good mostly for competitive overclock attempts.  It’s nice to see you abandon the “it will produce less heat” thing at least and go with ignoring much more malable points such as TDP.   300w has been claimed  for the Dh15 under perfect conditions.  The problem is at their very top point air coolers can be even louder than AIOs so it’s pointless.  Above 250w there’s no point to an air cooler.

 

It won’t be forever.  Something like a year ago experts looked at the intel Indio and said they wouldn’t have anything competitive till rocket lake.  If you want to fanboi for intel come back then.  They’ll be something to work with most likely.  There will be a showdown between rocket lake and zen3.  I don’t know which will be better.  Ice lake works better on laptops than it does one desktops.  So much so that intel didn’t want to put desktop ice lake out at all.  Now we know why.  It’s arguably worse than the earlier stuff.  Very curious to see what intel has for Rocket lake though.

[TheDankKoosh]

55 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

*sigh* you keep talking about heat disapation not heat production.  It doesn’t matter how fast he heat flows it still has to be disapated.  This thing isn’t being delidded.  It’s actually got an unusually thick lid.  That’s part of the issue.  Also liquid metal is gallium-indium. It’s corrosive and good mostly for competitive overclock attempts.  It’s nice to see you abandon the “it will produce less heat” thing at least and go with ignoring much more malable points such as TDP.   300w has been claimed  for the Dh15 under perfect conditions.  The problem is at their very top point air coolers can be even louder than AIOs so it’s pointless.  Above 250w there’s no point to an air cooler.

 

It won’t be forever.  Something like a year ago experts looked at the intel Indio and said they wouldn’t have anything competitive till rocket lake.  If you want to fanboi for intel come back then.  They’ll be something to work with most likely.  There will be a showdown between rocket lake and zen3.  I don’t know which will be better.  Ice lake works better on laptops than it does one desktops.  So much so that intel didn’t want to put desktop ice lake out at all.  Now we know why.  It’s arguably worse than the earlier stuff.  Very curious to see what intel has for Rocket lake though.

The heat has to flow to be dissipated and the 9900k does better with an air cooler on a sanded die compared to stock.

 

Pic related is a 9900k with a sanded die on a D15 doing P95 small ffts AVX on. This would be hitting TJmax pre sanding

 

Looky there, a D15 doing perfectly fine at 260w power consumption, 2000rpm on a Noctua fan isn't too bad but if you wanted similar temperatures with less noise, the Le Grand Macho RT does the same temps at lower noise with a 1400rpm max speed on their fan. These results should be close to what the 10700k does at the same clocks and voltage. I have never said that a chip will produce less heat due to better heat transfer, but you ignore the fact that current CPUs heat transfer capabilities are what bottleneck coolers most of the time, I guarantee that if you made a top end air cooler direct die, it would be even better, but water cooling is superior for extremely power hungry chips, which this is getting close to. I have nothing left to debate with you since your mind will not be shifted and you will not look at evidence objectively.

[Guest]

I have fun in this fashion on Intel hardware. Where the "Hammer Down" goes as far as liquid cooling sub-ambient. 9c water delta.

 

edit: stock score about 80K

 

 

[Bombastinator]

4 hours ago, TheDankKoosh said:

The heat has to flow to be dissipated and the 9900k does better with an air cooler on a sanded die compared to stock.

 

Pic related is a 9900k with a sanded die on a D15 doing P95 small ffts AVX on. This would be hitting TJmax pre sanding

 

Looky there, a D15 doing perfectly fine at 260w power consumption, 2000rpm on a Noctua fan isn't too bad but if you wanted similar temperatures with less noise, the Le Grand Macho RT does the same temps at lower noise with a 1400rpm max speed on their fan. These results should be close to what the 10700k does at the same clocks and voltage. I have never said that a chip will produce less heat due to better heat transfer, but you ignore the fact that current CPUs heat transfer capabilities are what bottleneck coolers most of the time, I guarantee that if you made a top end air cooler direct die, it would be even better, but water cooling is superior for extremely power hungry chips, which this is getting close to. I have nothing left to debate with you since your mind will not be shifted and you will not look at evidence objectively.

Sure.  And as I have said, with an A chip, or even a B chip that is likely doable.  The thing is the chances of a C chip are fairly high. “Hope for the best, prepare for the worst” remember this is pre order.  BEFORE stats are out (though they will likely be out in as little as a few days and all this will be irrelevant)   
 

Pre order is a bad idea IMHO.  If one has to pre order though, one has to prepare for the possibility of receiving something sub par.

 

This is a lot like the covid thing.  It MIGHT be ok.  It would be awesome if it was ok.  The problem is we don’t KNOW if it will be ok or not.  A big AIO will work no matter what.  It might not be needed, but it also might be.  It will work no matter what. 
Covid is a bit unusual in that there seems to be wave after wave after wave of bad news.  “It’s not hat bad” nope, it’s worse. “We will have systems I place” nope. It’s worse.  “It only affects old people” nope, it’s worse. “It’s just a lung disease” nope, it’s worse.

 

C bin MIGHT not be that bad.  It might be you can hit 5ghz @260w with a C bin chip.  Or it could be worse.