Thank You, LTT, For Giving Linux A Fair Shake

[WereCatf]

Linux-gamers are a niche in a niche -- they are far better served by videos and Youtubers directly aimed at them, instead of a pitiful breadcrumb here or there from the channels whose focus isn't on them. Videos and other content specifically for them helps with discoverability and given how little there is such content, every bit of discoverability is important. A tiny footnote in a non-targeted video? Worthless.

[Aremis]

Just now, Den-Fi said:

Let's put this to bed.

Create a funding campaign to get GN to add Linux testing.

That way there is no doubt that the audience and money are there.

Job done.

Alright.  Wanna help spread the word with me?  Otherwise those campaigns die and no one does anything.

 

As have hundreds.  If not thousands.  For all sorts of things, not just YT.

[Aremis]

1 minute ago, WereCatf said:

Worthless.

Cool, then I guess democracy doesn't exist either.

 

But thats outside this thread.

[WereCatf]

1 minute ago, Aremis said:

Cool, then I guess democracy doesn't exist either.

That doesn't make any sense. We're not talking about voting or politics.

[Novasty]

Complaining about GN on an LTT forum, that will totally work.

[Aremis]

I have to go for a minute to do some farm chores.  I'll be back in a little bit if anyone else wants to disuss.

[Aremis]

Just now, WereCatf said:

That doesn't make any sense. We're not talking about voting or politics.

Ok, then linux being comparative to the libertarian party being ignored...  Yeah sure, ok whatever.

[Aremis]

1 minute ago, Novasty said:

Complaining about GN on an LTT forum, that will totally work.

Hai kitty senpai.

 

Its called getting eyes on things.  LTT has more users.  And a podcast with potential to get a mention.  VS GN where I'd just get shit on at the end of a news roundup instead of getting a valid argument from people.

[WereCatf]

Just now, Aremis said:

Ok, then linux being comparative to the libertarian party being ignored...  Yeah sure, ok whatever.

Still doesn't make any sense.

[Guest]

Just now, Aremis said:

Alright.  Wanna help spread the word with me?  Otherwise those campaigns die and no one does anything.

 

As have hundreds.  If not thousands.  For all sorts of things, not just YT.

 

If real support was there just waiting for testing like this, it wouldn't take much for it to take off.

It's not something I would help with because it would likely fall flat.

Why? Because the demand is not there for this content in the way you're suggesting it is.

That is my point.

 

Again, great that you're passionate about it, but you're getting the same response here AND on Level1.

I don't see anyone who shares the same thoughts as you on this matter in the way that you're painting it.

[Curious Pineapple]

This reminds me of the dude that told me I should buy new hardware so I could use Linux

[dizmo]

1 hour ago, Aremis said:

While true, its far from difficult to download something from github, open the folder in a terminal, and type 'make install'.  Its merely a part of using linux sometimes.

 

While I would have agreed with that, say, 5 years ago, now we have popos, elementaryos, ubuntu, all doing a shitload of work to make sure that anything works, that theres no hangups, that you can just plug in your nvidia gpu and not have to screw around with stuff so much.  Hell even AMD cards just work.  And not quote en quote, like you can start streaming first install right away.  Apt in some obs, plug in your audio, install steam, download game, go.

 

I don't see whats so "user unfriendly" about that.  Especially with an app store.

 

To add, I don't see where its "So difficult" to setup a testbench on the side to even just see if something works.  I don't need 8 hour grinds on shit, no one is asking that.  Just some bloody effort.

Right. Which is far from what your normal user is going to go through, and why Linux hasn't captured a wider audience. The only reason the OS hasn't gained traction is they apparently seem incapable of making it more user friendly. If people can get an easier experience elsewhere, they'll do it.

 

Honestly that's more of an issue than not. Having so many different versions of Linux makes it hard for users to choose one. Not to mention, IIRC, from what I've seen in Linus's videos they all perform differently and have different steps to get them to work.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/02/12/6-months-with-linux-the-ugly-truth-about-gaming-without-windows/#3d88082137c0

This is a year old, but it doesn't exactly show great aspects when gaming on Linux.

PPAs also seem like a royal PITA to use.

 

Haha, WHAT? Are you seriously suggesting people set up a test bench, requiring extra hardware, just to see if Linux works? That's acceptable to you? That's fucking ridiculous. That's more than effort. That's doubling your costs of the system, and way, way more than an average, and I'd say even moderately advanced user would be willing to do. I know a decent amount about hardware and such, and I'd never put that much effort into getting something to work. To me, it's poor design and doesn't deserve the time.

 

Also, and more to the point, if performance isn't the same (from what I've seen it can take significant hits in a lot of titles), then why would someone ever use it?

[Aremis]

Just now, Den-Fi said:

 

If real support was there just waiting for testing like this, it wouldn't take much for it to take off.

It's not something I would help with because it would likely fall flat.

Why? Because the demand is not there for this content in the way you're suggesting it is.

That is my point.

The reason it takes so much to get it to take off is because people have to argue like this and prove they're in the right no matter what.  The same points have been argued for years.

 

Linux doesn't have as good of driver support.  False.  Linux doesn't have as good of NVIDIA support.

 

linux isn't worth the time.  False.  Windows 7 is an open market for advertising a newer more secure platform.

 

I mean the same points have been talked about for years but its not like anyone has actually progressed the conversation at all.  Thats why linux is in a stagnant position in the first place, is it not?

 

Demand isn't there by as many people as are on windows.  When the crowd is muffled by yelling and screaming, or just a bigger user base is used as the reason, then nothing happens at all anyways.  If there isn't effort put forward, nothing happens.

 

Object in motion stays in motion until stopped.  Object not in motion will not be in motion until interacted with.

 

Exactly same thing here.

[Aremis]

4 minutes ago, Curious Pineapple said:

This reminds me of the dude that told me I should buy new hardware so I could use Linux

Lol thats sad.  Use what yu want.  Hell I can play skyrim on a pentium 4 in linux.  Might as well let that be available, right? 

[Curious Pineapple]

1 minute ago, Aremis said:

Lol thats sad.  Use what yu want.  Hell I can play skyrim on a pentium 4 in linux.  Might as well let that be available, right? 

They were insistant that I should buy new hardware, so that I'd have better Linux support, so I could re-write my application instead of just using Windows which is what the entire industry uses. I can't even guarantee that my touch panel will work properly as half the time it's rotated 180 degrees and needs a reboot.

[Aremis]

1 minute ago, dizmo said:

Right. Which is far from what your normal user is going to go through, and why Linux hasn't captured a wider audience. The only reason the OS hasn't gained traction is they apparently seem incapable of making it more user friendly. If people can get an easier experience elsewhere, they'll do it.

Its not like I expect every user to know that though.  Thats why flatpak and snaps exist.  Make more things available more easily.

 

Anyways.

 

2 minutes ago, dizmo said:

Honestly that's more of an issue than not. Having so many different versions of Linux makes it hard for users to choose one. Not to mention, IIRC, from what I've seen in Linus's videos they all perform differently and have different steps to get them to work.

Discussed this earlier.  General market, so Ubuntu, PopOS, or Elementary would be a good base.  I'm not expecting live kernel readings here or anything, or showing how to build a driver or how to install.  Theres other channels for that.  Just relevant data that would possibly create interest in more data.

 

3 minutes ago, dizmo said:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/02/12/6-months-with-linux-the-ugly-truth-about-gaming-without-windows/#3d88082137c0

This is a year old, but it doesn't exactly show great aspects when gaming on Linux.

PPAs also seem like a royal PITA to use.

Forbes is also the sit that screams OH MY GOD DON'T UPDATE WINDOWS one week then OH MY GOD UDATE WINDOWS _RIGHT NOW_ the next.  I'd hardly call them a reliable source when it comes to tech.

 

Also no one really uses PPA's anymore?  At least they aren't as wide spread.  Regardless, they aren't needed for things like benchmarks or steam.

 

5 minutes ago, dizmo said:

Haha, WHAT? Are you seriously suggesting people set up a test bench, requiring extra hardware, just to see if Linux works? That's acceptable to you? That's fucking ridiculous. That's more than effort. That's doubling your costs of the system, and way, way more than an average, and I'd say even moderately advanced user would be willing to do. I know a decent amount about hardware and such, and I'd never put that much effort into getting something to work. To me, it's poor design and doesn't deserve the time.

I agree I could have better wording, but I've been stuck this thread all morning and haven't had my coffee yet.  May it be known at least that things do just work on linux more often than not anymore.  That was my point.  And its not like they have to have a COMPLETELY SEPARATE system.  Theres multiple SSD slots and sata ports for a reason you know.

 

I didn't know that people didn't know that.  Apparently I was wrong.

 

7 minutes ago, dizmo said:

Also, and more to the point, if performance isn't the same (from what I've seen it can take significant hits in a lot of titles), then why would someone ever use it?

Thats my point.  Performance can be equal, better, or worse.  Why is that irrelevant to you?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Aremis said:

The reason it takes so much to get it to take off is because people have to argue like this and prove they're in the right no matter what.  The same points have been argued for years.

 

Linux doesn't have as good of driver support.  False.  Linux doesn't have as good of NVIDIA support.

 

linux isn't worth the time.  False.  Windows 7 is an open market for advertising a newer more secure platform.

 

I mean the same points have been talked about for years but its not like anyone has actually progressed the conversation at all.  Thats why linux is in a stagnant position in the first place, is it not?

 

Demand isn't there by as many people as are on windows.  When the crowd is muffled by yelling and screaming, or just a bigger user base is used as the reason, then nothing happens at all anyways.  If there isn't effort put forward, nothing happens.

 

Object in motion stays in motion until stopped.  Object not in motion will not be in motion until interacted with.

 

Exactly same thing here.

Ok so... look at where we are now vs your OP.

 

You are on a TOTALLY different subject now than you were in your OP.

Quote

As it stands, I'll call GN Steve (really GN in total) out for their refusal to include OpenGL and Vulkan in their benchmarks.  Their argument is fair, not enough users to justify it (though the market share argument is long in the tooth and complete BS), or just assuming that linux performance will be the same.  I'll tell you, its not.  I can either get WORSE performance or BETTER performance depending on the game, as well when you go to linux, different drivers now exist for older hardware that they often revisit.  Different hardware can just act differently on linux.  A 5700XT could be stronger in linux with a driver update.  But unless I hunt through Phoronix for 3 hours jumping between articles till I find the exact one I need, I'm not going to know that shit.  And its not like its all that hard to just....  put in 2 extra data points and include a note on the side of any weirdness you noticed.

 

Like really steve, what the fuck dude.

The things you are saying now have NOTHING to do with this.

You have shifted your point so much now. THAT is the problem.

The way you started this point and where we are now are worlds apart.

This is no one's fault but your own. You keep moving the point so that you're never wrong.

How do you ever expect to get any traction.

 

You still NEVER addressed your downright rude call out in the first place.

What kind of support were you hoping for with your tone?

Take some responsibility and maybe this will get somewhere. Continually shifting the blame to Windows and LTT users is not doing you any favors.

[Novasty]

So what I will say will likely have been already said. I am also quite bad at forming my ideas cohesively, so sorry about that. I am looking at this entirely from a business perspective.

 

Based on current available information, the investment into Linux is not all entirely worth it. LTT will likely have to create a completely separate channel in order to present Linux information which will likely only get a fraction of the subs and views due to Linux information not easily being presentable in an entertaining fashion. This goes back to looking at how LTT puts out and QC's their videos, a ton of unnecessary workload for a small ROI.

 

LTT has once commented on the primary reason for their new Shortcircuit channel as a place to put videos that don't meet the "LTT" gold standard. Another channel would have to be created entirely for the more Linux heavy information as a lot of it is dry. Why bother with that when you could literally just direct the viewers to other more effective channels for this sort of information.

[Aremis]

4 minutes ago, Curious Pineapple said:

They were insistant that I should buy new hardware, so that I'd have better Linux support, so I could re-write my application instead of just using Windows which is what the entire industry uses. I can't even guarantee that my touch panel will work properly as half the time it's rotated 180 degrees and needs a reboot.

Well I mean I run a thinkpad X230T and use it mostly for art.  Most, if not all, wacom and huion things work, which is generally who dictates how that stuff goes.  I run all older hardware, aside from my MSI.  I don't need anything newer atm, but will soon.  I wouldn't advocate for what that person said at all lol.  But to each their own I guess.

[Aremis]

6 minutes ago, Den-Fi said:

Ok so... look at where we are now vs your OP.

 

You are on a TOTALLY different subject now than you were in your OP.

The things you are saying now have NOTHING to do with this.

You have shifted your point so much now. THAT is the problem.

The way you started this point and where we are now are worlds apart.

This is no one's fault but your own. You keep moving the point so that you're never wrong.

How do you ever expect to get any traction.

 

You still NEVER addressed your downright rude call out in the first place.

What kind of support were you hoping for with your tone?

Take some responsibility and maybe this will get somewhere. Continually shifting the blame to Windows and LTT users is not doing you any favors.

Yeah because you brought up points I didn't think of and we had more conversation generate from it.  Thats how conversation works.

 

If you want, PM me what you'd want me to edit and I'll re-write it.  No issues there bud.  Tho post was off the cuff from other conversations I was having anyways, but with an energy of "Thank you for at least caring a little where other channels just ignore".  That was mostly the point anyways.

[Aremis]

2 minutes ago, Novasty said:

So what I will say will likely have been already said. I am also quite bad at forming my ideas cohesively, so sorry about that. I am looking at this entirely from a business perspective.

 

Based on current available information, the investment into Linux is not all entirely worth it. LTT will likely have to create a completely separate channel in order to present Linux information which will likely only get a fraction of the subs and views due to Linux information not easily being presentable in an entertaining fashion. This goes back to looking at how LTT puts out and QC's their videos, a ton of unnecessary workload for a small ROI.

 

LTT has once commented on the primary reason for their new Shortcircuit channel as a place to put videos that don't meet the "LTT" gold standard. Another channel would have to be created entirely for the more Linux heavy information as a lot of it is dry. Why bother with that when you could literally just direct the viewers to other more effective channels for this sort of information.

Why would they have to make a new channel?  No one's brought that up actually, but thats a fair point to make.  Though I'm curious as to why they'd have to do that.  Same as GN or Jay.  Its just adding data points.

 

Again, its showing more interest in other platforms and making other platforms more visible.  I dunno maybe I have an argument I'm not making or pushing something I'm not aware of.

 

No one's asking for linux heavy info.  Unigine gives you a point score, add that to the board.  Thats it.  How is that hard?

[RonnieOP]

22 minutes ago, Aremis said:

Ok, then they don't switch to linux.  I don't think that entire 34% would switch over.  I think that 8% of that could though, or 12%.  Easily.

 

Ok, then thats a healthy conversation and relevant data to have for this sort of thing.  Exactly why stuff should be brought up like this.

 

Except that you can install steam, turn on proton, and tada you're playing dark souls 2?  I don't see your point.

 

Not even that.  People just don't know its an option.

 

I don't need GN to be a linux channel.  as mentioned several times already, the info being shown would simply be appreciated.

 

When enough viewers commented a year and a half ago to two years ago that they had to mention that they wouldn't cover linux, how much do you think that amount has grown?

 

Actually maybe it was 3 years ago now.  New decade fucks with me.

But can you do that with all games?

If not then the point still stands.

 

Your whole argument on them having to mention it doesnt mean much. They were asked about it and answered. That couldve been 100 people. Or 10 people asking over and over. And that was years ago.

 

If you want linux based content its out there. GN doesnt have that audience.

[Aremis]

Alright, now I'm going.  Back in a bit.

[lewdicrous]

23 minutes ago, Aremis said:

Cool, then I guess democracy doesn't exist either.

This has nothing to do with democracy. They've been asked to make such content, they said no, that's it, end of story.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

1 hour ago, dizmo said:

...Linux isn't really covered because it's not really a user friendly environment. It's far too complicated to use, and doesn't work with a lot of the apps that people will want. Does it work for some? Absolutely. However, it's far from the mass market, and that's what YouTubers cater to, because that's what will make them money.

 

Yeah, most users aren't going to do that. That's why Linus fails as a whole. It's not user friendly...

Much of that is a myth. Many distros of Linux--Mint Cinnamon, for example--are very user friendly and are actually quite simple to use; simpler than Win dows, in fact. It's just radically different from Windows under the hood. Linux is NOT Windows and expecting it to work like Windows is where many, if not most, Windows users get hung up when trying to learn how to use Linux. Windows users did not learn how to use Windows overnight yet they expect to learn how to use Linux overnight.

 

Another reason Windows users have trouble with Linux is expecting or wanting their Windows programs to work in Linux. That's like Ford users expecting heads from a Ford engine to fit and work on a Chevy engine. Linux has a surprising number of programs that will allow users to achieve the same results they achieved using Windows programs. One has to be willing to change their workflow when switching to Linux; otherwise they are doomed to fail.

 

Linux gaming as come a long ways in the past few years. Does it rival gaming on Windows? Not quite yet. However, if one isn't too attached to certain Windows only games, one can enjpoy gaming on Linux just as well as they can on Windows.

 

In the workplace, users are often restricted to the OS and programs required by their employers so Linux would not be an option for them. But, for home users, Linux is very much a practical and often better option if they are willing to unlearn Windows and learn how to use Linux from the ground up instead of expecting Linux to just be another version of Windows.

 

6 minutes ago, Den-Fi said:

...Yes, they could use Pop or Ubuntu, but what happens when an update breaks something and they can't fix it?...

Linux updates are pretty well vetted before being released, unlike Windows updates. In fact, MS has admitted they are now using Windows Home users as their guinea pigs instead od doing their own beta testing. I stopped updating Win 7 after December of 2016 because of the frequent bad updates that were breaking or crippling my computers.

 

Although I've been using Linux Mint Cinnamon only since mid December (and exclusively since mid January), I've yet to have a Linux update my computer. In that time, Win 10 has had two or three bad updates that was borking computers or deleting data. Even if Linux had a bad update, if you are using Timeshift (a program much like Windows restore only it actually works) properly, you can roll back to the previous update version within a handful of minutes.

 

Even if you manage to hopelessly bork your Linux installation while fooling around with it (as I have done three times during the learning process due to my own inexperience), reinstalling is far simpler and faster than it is with Windows.