Thank You, LTT, For Giving Linux A Fair Shake

[Aremis]

2 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

But can you do that with all games?

If not then the point still stands.

 

Your whole argument on them having to mention it doesnt mean much. They were asked about it and answered. That couldve been 100 people. Or 10 people asking over and over. And that was years ago.

 

If you want linux based content its out there. GN doesnt have that audience.

Yes you can use proton with all games.  As well, support is getting better and better by the week with more games working or getting whitelisted as stable and perfect.

 

Also I'm aware my argument doesn't mean much, to a windows user.  My argument is for users that could use linux, or do use linux that want good data handled by basically tech scientists.

 

GN does have that audience.  They just gave up on trying.  Mostly because of conversations like this one.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Aremis said:

Yeah because you brought up points I didn't think of and we had more conversation generate from it.  Thats how conversation works.

 

If you want, PM me what you'd want me to edit and I'll re-write it.  No issues there bud.

The problem here is you came to rant and had barely any merit to do so.

NOW you want to establish a point and be taken seriously.

 

You're also deflecting again. You're putting it on me to make sense of your rant and turn it into a post.

My suggestion to you at this point is come up with a thread that promotes the ideas that EVENTUALLY materialized in this thread that would promote healthy discussion.

I would be happy to review it, but I will absolutely not do your work for you.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

Linux updates are pretty well vetted before being released, unlike Windows updates. In fact, MS has admitted they are now using Windows Home users as their guinea pigs instead od doing their own beta testing. I stopped updating Win 7 after December of 2016 because of the frequent bad updates that were breaking or crippling my computers.

 

Although I've been using Linux Mint Cinnamon only since mid December (and exclusively since mid January), I've yet to have a Linux update my computer. In that time, Win 10 has had two or three bad updates that was borking computers or deleting data. Even if Linux had a bad update, if you are using Timeshift (a program much like Windows restore only it actually works) properly, you can roll back to the previous update version within a handful of minutes.

 

Even if you manage to hopelessly bork your Linux installation while fooling around with it (as I have done three times during the learning process due to my own inexperience), reinstalling is far simpler and faster than it is with Windows.

I was not solely implying Linux updates though. I meant game patches, proton updates, etc...

 

[RonnieOP]

8 minutes ago, Aremis said:

Yes you can use proton with all games.  As well, support is getting better and better by the week with more games working or getting whitelisted as stable and perfect.

 

Also I'm aware my argument doesn't mean much, to a windows user.  My argument is for users that could use linux, or do use linux that want good data handled by basically tech scientists.

 

GN does have that audience.  They just gave up on trying.  Mostly because of conversations like this one.

You contradict yourself there.

 

You say it works with all games but then say its getting better every week with more games working. So then not all games work right now. Correct?

 

"Could us linux" is far from "want to use linux".  Most people dont want to use linux. 

 

For me personally theres nothing about linux that makes me want to use it. But thats me.

 

And why are you so sure they have that audience? 

 

Also you are assuming they want to learn about linux gaming. Maybe it doesnt interest them.

 

Why not just go watch linux channels? 

 

[ARikozuM]

I think it's good to voice your opinion and desires to GamersNexus so that they may get a good idea of the audience that watches them. Letting them know that you use Linux is the first step to getting at least a video or two visiting the subject. If it becomes worthwhile to him to do that, he might go ahead and bump up the frequency of testing different distros.

 

Two things though:

1) Make sure that you let him know what distros you use and that they are common and easy to use for anyone moving from Windows or MacOS. There's no point in getting some uber hax0r OS for someone who is looking for something simple like Mint, elementaryOS, or Puppy. Plug and play is a huge thing for Windows and any alternative needs to be just as good.

2) There does need to be an extensive support community just as Windows has (unfortunately) so that newcomers have an easy transition. 

 

For anyone saying that GamersNexus shouldn't have to listen to a small community of Linux users, consider the following: 

STFU. That's it. 

 

Why shouldn't someone ask for a reviewer to consider their platform for at least a glance? Sure, we could say "find Linux reviewers", but then where would they be? Nowhere. If GN helps out in that regard and finds it difficult, he can at least push them into those channels or bring their expertise into his videos. It's a net positive when a group voices their opinion. Those who say nothing are worth nothing and those who say something are worth something. 

 

I would definitely add more patronage if GN were to start testing on Linux Mint or elementaryOS. Even if I'm in the minority, it's still possible to do one test a month or two to see how the channel does with Linux as a whole. 

[Novasty]

22 minutes ago, Aremis said:

Though I'm curious as to why they'd have to do that.  Same as GN or Jay.  Its just adding data points.

Then I will circle back to what has been mentioned before.

 

That is adding a ton of extra unnecessary work. You don't just install and test, you need to validate the data, which requires a lot more extra work being put into it. Frankly, the amount of man hours any of the three (LTT, GN, & J2C) would need to put in, it doesn't look feasible without some form of workflow.

 

On a separate note, Unraid & Synology would do extremely well on LTT because they are made to be consumer ready. This means there isn't a lot of futzing around that needs to be done to get going from 0. If Linux can be like that from the get go and be mainstream (same sense of dominance of RHEL but for consumers, not Ubuntu or Ubuntu-based forks), then there is a great workflow to introduce benchmarking.

 

Have you ever heard of the saying "give an inch and they take a mile"? This is perfectly applicable in this situation as once you start introducing some form of Linux in the benchmarking scene, the loudest minority will DEMAND more distributions be added to the list which will drown out the core audience that watches these videos and alienate them. The big problem with this is if LTT ignores them, the minority gets louder, if LTT listens to them, the minority wants more. There is no good reason to start adding Linux data points without proper validation & a dominant distribution that everyone can hop on-board. Lets face it, Linux will always be fragmented, that fragmentation is the downfall of why Linux is not viable to list for benchmarks.

 

Before you use Phoronix, if you actually look at their benchmarks, they do it from multiple distributions because that is their core focus.

 

It is simply not possible for LTT to incorporate benchmarks from other entities because the workflow isn't similar enough for them to validate the data correctly.

 

Proton is not viable to endorse because it doesn't encompass "gaming" correctly, you are still introducing a layer that doesn't always work reliably from the get-go, it also conflicts with a lot of anti-cheat software and is finicky with multi-player games like the Halo Master Chief Collection.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

1 hour ago, RonnieOP said:

Its not a viable option for the vast majority of people.

Again, a myth. I've already given reasons why Windows users fail when they try to switch to Linux. Most people, especially home users, would benefit from switching to Linux if only they understood that Linux is NOT Windows and would be willing to start all over again leaning how to use a computer.

33 minutes ago, Curious Pineapple said:

This reminds me of the dude that told me I should buy new hardware so I could use Linux

That "dude" was an idiot (polite term; idiots happen everywhere). In fact, Linux often works better on older hardware. No all hardware is not going to work on Linux but the vast majority will. Same as not all car parts will work on all cars, you can't expect all hardware to work with all OSes. In fact, Linux is compatible with more hardware than Windows or Mac OS.

[Guest]

Actually, this is all pretty resolvable without speculation into GN's thinking.

I just searched the Discord for posts from Steve with the word Linux in it and it boils down to them leaving Linux testing to Phrononix.

Perhaps join his Discord and making a formal AskGN question so he can give his full position.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

13 minutes ago, Den-Fi said:

I was not solely implying Linux updates though. I meant game patches, proton updates, etc...

 

True that. There was actually a recent update for the Brave Browser that caused some people some grief. However, there are likely to be fewer of those kinds of updates for Linux than with other browsers because the Linux community does a better job of vetting the updates before releasing them to users. As long as one updates only through the Linux Update Manager, the chances of getting a bad update are drastically reduced, if not pretty much eliminated.

[RonnieOP]

2 minutes ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

Again, a myth. I've already given reasons why Windows users fail when they try to switch to Linux. Most people, especially home users, would benefit from switching to Linux if only they understood that Linux is NOT Windows and would be willing to start all over again leaning how to use a computer.

Its not a myth and you just proved its not.

 

Having to start all over and relearn how to use linux is not a viable option for most.

 

 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

1 minute ago, RonnieOP said:

Its not a myth and you just proved its not.

 

Having to start all over and relearn how to use linux is not a viable option for most.

 

 

Horsefeathers! It is a viable option. Not being willing to learn Linux from the beginning has nothing to do with viability. That's more like laziness or a fear of the unknown.

[Sauron]

1 hour ago, Aremis said:

True, but using blender as a benchmark seems enough to me.  Performance can have a huge bump on linux in comparison because theres not as much tech in the way.

Hmmm that's not really true - performance is sometimes better on Linux but not always and how much "tech" is in the way doesn't really play a role. Also, poor driver support is a very big factor when it comes to performance and it applies especially to gpus.

 

And no, using Blender as a generic benchmark doesn't really tell you anything beside how well Blender performs. So if you don't use Blender much, it's completely irrelevant.

1 hour ago, Aremis said:

Then don't cover it, or mention that setup is more difficult and have a link to a forum post they can reference to in the description.

 

Or don't recommend that application.  That is an option as well, you know.

The point is that to have anything one could consider acceptable coverage they'd have to put in more work than you're implying.

1 hour ago, Aremis said:

And then ignoring that performance on linux can be better?  OR that theres even another option?

 

I didn't know that sort of data was irrelevant.  If that was the case, linux as a desktop system could be seen as irrelevant, even though it clearly isn't for a lot of people.

 

Thats called a slippery slope.

No, it's called "misrepresenting Sauron's argument". I said I recommend Linux for virtually everything else, so you should have picked up on the fact that I don't see the Linux desktop in general as irrelevant.

 

Again, just because once in a blue moon the game runs and it runs perceiveably better than on Windows doesn't mean you can just ignore the much more abundant situations where the game doesn't run at all or runs significantly worse. If you only play games that run better or equally well on Linux then sure, use it for games - that's just very unlikely for the kind of person who would drool over the newest graphics card. Even you said you have to use Windows for a game you want to play... let's be a little self aware here.

1 hour ago, Aremis said:

If someone on a displaced version of windows was watching a GN video and saw linux was a viable option for their next hardware upgrade, why would you want to not have that as an option for users in the future?  I can't expect the average desktop user to go on phoronix and look up RX580 and see if their shit will work.

If I can't expect someone to do 10 seconds of research then that person will have a shit experience on Linux. Also I think you're underestimating the kind of audience that would watch a channel about DIY computer hardware.

2 hours ago, Aremis said:

I'd find that extremely daunting as a lot of the info won't make sense to someone who just wants to play some games and use their computer and NOT be spied on.  Its a big concern nowadays, and not just by linux people.

Well that's too bad, they're watching a youtube video and probably have a smartphone so that concern is pretty much gone out the window anyway. Just using Linux doesn't suddenly mean you're no longer spied on. A non tech savvy user using an internet browser is already 100 times more exposed than someone who knows what they're doing and is using Windows. Also honestly what is there to spy on a videogame box?

 

I did say that if you're doing other things and also want to play a couple of games sometimes then sure, Linux all the way - but we were specifically arguing about when that's not the case.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

True that. There was actually a recent update for the Brave Browser that caused some people some grief. However, there are likely to be fewer of those kinds of updates for Linux than with other browsers because the Linux community does a better job of vetting the updates before releasing them to users. As long as one updates only through the Linux Update Manager, the chances of getting a bad update are drastically reduced, if not pretty much eliminated.

Oh for sure. This doesn't really align with my point to OP though. My point was GN Steve is not lazy, he is simply not willing to add this amount of work and possibility to his plate. OP came at this the wrong way and is just plain not owning up to it.

[RonnieOP]

1 minute ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

Horsefeathers! It is a viable option. Not being willing to learn Linux from the beginning has nothing to do with viability. That's more like laziness or a fear of the unknown.

Relearning how you use a computer is not a viable option for many people.

 

Its not laziness, but pointless for most.

 

If you are comfortable with an OS and it does everything you need it to do. Why would you want to dismiss the OS youve used for years in order to learn a new one? 

 

For me (and alot of people) theres no benefit to switching to linux. I gain nothing from it and i lose alot.

[Aremis]

Back for a few minutes, but need to go gather wood to heat the house.  So I'll only do a few replies.  If people are mad at that, sorry.  I just don't want to be seen as "Running away from an argument"

[Aremis]

43 minutes ago, Den-Fi said:

The problem here is you came to rant and had barely any merit to do so.

NOW you want to establish a point and be taken seriously.

 

You're also deflecting again. You're putting it on me to make sense of your rant and turn it into a post.

My suggestion to you at this point is come up with a thread that promotes the ideas that EVENTUALLY materialized in this thread that would promote healthy discussion.

I would be happy to review it, but I will absolutely not do your work for you.

Thats fine, I didn't mean to come off that way.  Sorry that I did.

 

I'd try to make a more serious post if it wouldn't get ignored.  Past experiences tell me to do a more brash approach however, as similar posts have been ignored.

 

I'll make a better post and present it, rewrite this to be a thank you letter, and that will be  that.  Better?

[Aremis]

41 minutes ago, Den-Fi said:

I was not solely implying Linux updates though. I meant game patches, proton updates, etc...

 

Which is a good point to make actually.  In system doesn't necessarily OS devs.  I hadn't thought of that and will consider it more than I did.

[RonnieOP]

Just now, Aremis said:

Thats fine, I didn't mean to come off that way.  Sorry that I did.

 

I'd try to make a more serious post if it wouldn't get ignored.  Past experiences tell me to do a more brash approach however, as similar posts have been ignored.

 

I'll make a better post and present it, rewrite this to be a thank you letter, and that will be  that.  Better?

Why are you so aggressive with your idea that creators should do something just because you want them to?

 

Its their channel, they know what works for them. They dont want to do it.

 

So instead of pressuring creators to do it. Why not just go watch creators that choose to do it?

 

The fact that you are being brash in order for it "not to be ignored" kinda shows that its not worth their time.

[Aremis]

43 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

You contradict yourself there.

 

You say it works with all games but then say its getting better every week with more games working. So then not all games work right now. Correct?

 

"Could us linux" is far from "want to use linux".  Most people dont want to use linux. 

 

For me personally theres nothing about linux that makes me want to use it. But thats me.

 

And why are you so sure they have that audience? 

 

Also you are assuming they want to learn about linux gaming. Maybe it doesnt interest them.

 

Why not just go watch linux channels? 

 

I said it can work with all games.  You can technically run anything in proton, but compatibility is a thing.  As support gets better and better, games run better and better was my point.

 

Apologies.

 

To the "Why are you so sure", because I was one of the people posting on their forums in about 3 different threads at the time that had like 100 posts. in it.  I know theres people who would want the data handled by them merely for their presentation and respect of the data being accurate.

 

Also as I said, they don't have to do all gaming crap.  While it may not interest them, its useful data.  Also, I want to reiterate, it doesn't have to be GN.  I just like their methods the most.  No bullshit, no talking, data, done.  Perfect.

 

To the linux channel point, because that is a limited audience and often not very professional.  I want to see the differences across the board, not just "How many FPS in tomb raider on only this card but in every linux distro".  Thats rather dumb.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Aremis said:

Thats fine, I didn't mean to come off that way.  Sorry that I did.

 

I'd try to make a more serious post if it wouldn't get ignored.  Past experiences tell me to do a more brash approach however, as similar posts have been ignored.

 

I'll make a better post and present it, rewrite this to be a thank you letter, and that will be  that.  Better?

I don't think you need to veil anything. That is the problem.

Just find the point you wish to make. Perhaps asking people WHY they don't want to switch to Linux or want more coverage.

If I've learned anything, it's that you have just as many preconceived opinions of people on Windows as they do of Linux.

You want understanding, but you are not showing it to others. Sure you've begrudgingly agreed here and there, but your tone has been absolutely off-putting.

To gain understanding, you must give it.

[RonnieOP]

2 minutes ago, Aremis said:

I said it can work with all games.  You can technically run anything in proton, but compatibility is a thing.  As support gets better and better, games run better and better was my point.

 

Apologies.

 

To the "Why are you so sure", because I was one of the people posting on their forums in about 3 different threads at the time that had like 100 posts. in it.  I know theres people who would want the data handled by them merely for their presentation and respect of the data being accurate.

 

Also as I said, they don't have to do all gaming crap.  While it may not interest them, its useful data.  Also, I want to reiterate, it doesn't have to be GN.  I just like their methods the most.  No bullshit, no talking, data, done.  Perfect.

3 different threads with 100 posts is nothing. Thats not alot of interest.

 

So instead of trying to convince GN to do linux why not talk to the linux creators about the methods they use? 

 

Its useful data to you. But to GN and the vast majority of the viewers its useless.

[Aremis]

41 minutes ago, ARikozuM said:

I think it's good to voice your opinion and desires to GamersNexus so that they may get a good idea of the audience that watches them. Letting them know that you use Linux is the first step to getting at least a video or two visiting the subject. If it becomes worthwhile to him to do that, he might go ahead and bump up the frequency of testing different distros.

 

Two things though:

1) Make sure that you let him know what distros you use and that they are common and easy to use for anyone moving from Windows or MacOS. There's no point in getting some uber hax0r OS for someone who is looking for something simple like Mint, elementaryOS, or Puppy. Plug and play is a huge thing for Windows and any alternative needs to be just as good.

2) There does need to be an extensive support community just as Windows has (unfortunately) so that newcomers have an easy transition. 

 

For anyone saying that GamersNexus shouldn't have to listen to a small community of Linux users, consider the following: 

STFU. That's it. 

 

Why shouldn't someone ask for a reviewer to consider their platform for at least a glance? Sure, we could say "find Linux reviewers", but then where would they be? Nowhere. If GN helps out in that regard and finds it difficult, he can at least push them into those channels or bring their expertise into his videos. It's a net positive when a group voices their opinion. Those who say nothing are worth nothing and those who say something are worth something. 

 

I would definitely add more patronage if GN were to start testing on Linux Mint or elementaryOS. Even if I'm in the minority, it's still possible to do one test a month or two to see how the channel does with Linux as a whole. 

Good points.  I've tried to push to other channels to cover more in the past, as well as others.  We often get blown off or told to eat it though.  As I'm sure you're aware.  And often because linux is seen as hard, even though in most cases it makes things easier in a lot of ways.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

9 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Relearning how you use a computer is not a viable option for many people.

 

Its not laziness, but pointless for most.

 

If you are comfortable with an OS and it does everything you need it to do. Why would you want to dismiss the OS youve used for years in order to learn a new one? 

 

For me (and alot of people) theres no benefit to switching to linux. I gain nothing from it and i lose alot.

Sigh! You still don't get it.

viable

adjective

 

US 

 

 /ˈvɑɪ·ə·bəl/

 

 

able to exist, perform as intended, or succeed:

The company had to seek other ways to remain viable.

He would be a viable candidate for any office he wanted to run for.

Not wanting to learn something new does not make it not viable.

 

Also,  a lot of what you are saying is based on misconceptions. Linux is far more versatile that you seem to think. If you are happy with your current OS and and do not want to learn another one, that's fine. But erroneously denigrating Linux based on misconceptions is not fine. Keep in mind not everyone is happy with Windows or Mac OS.

 

 

20 minutes ago, Den-Fi said:

Oh for sure. This doesn't really align with my point to OP though. My point was GN Steve is not lazy, he is simply not willing to add this amount of work and possibility to his plate. OP came at this the wrong way and is just plain not owning up to it.

I'm not commenting on GN Steve; heck I don't even know the guy. I'm just responding to the Linux negative comments based on misconceptions or other erroneous data.

[Aremis]

42 minutes ago, Novasty said:

Then I will circle back to what has been mentioned before.

 

That is adding a ton of extra unnecessary work. You don't just install and test, you need to validate the data, which requires a lot more extra work being put into it. Frankly, the amount of man hours any of the three (LTT, GN, & J2C) would need to put in, it doesn't look feasible without some form of workflow.

 

On a separate note, Unraid & Synology would do extremely well on LTT because they are made to be consumer ready. This means there isn't a lot of futzing around that needs to be done to get going from 0. If Linux can be like that from the get go and be mainstream (same sense of dominance of RHEL but for consumers, not Ubuntu or Ubuntu-based forks), then there is a great workflow to introduce benchmarking.

 

Have you ever heard of the saying "give an inch and they take a mile"? This is perfectly applicable in this situation as once you start introducing some form of Linux in the benchmarking scene, the loudest minority will DEMAND more distributions be added to the list which will drown out the core audience that watches these videos and alienate them. The big problem with this is if LTT ignores them, the minority gets louder, if LTT listens to them, the minority wants more. There is no good reason to start adding Linux data points without proper validation & a dominant distribution that everyone can hop on-board. Lets face it, Linux will always be fragmented, that fragmentation is the downfall of why Linux is not viable to list for benchmarks.

 

Before you use Phoronix, if you actually look at their benchmarks, they do it from multiple distributions because that is their core focus.

 

It is simply not possible for LTT to incorporate benchmarks from other entities because the workflow isn't similar enough for them to validate the data correctly.

 

Proton is not viable to endorse because it doesn't encompass "gaming" correctly, you are still introducing a layer that doesn't always work reliably from the get-go, it also conflicts with a lot of anti-cheat software and is finicky with multi-player games like the Halo Master Chief Collection.

If I were in the position that these channels would be in with complaining neckbeards, I wouldn't give them the time of day.  As I said in a post earlier, though you may not have seen it (I don't blame you tbh), they can give their reasons to only use one distro and if the linux tards are mad at it they can be pointed to phoronix or L1T.

[Aremis]

37 minutes ago, Den-Fi said:

Actually, this is all pretty resolvable without speculation into GN's thinking.

I just searched the Discord for posts from Steve with the word Linux in it and it boils down to them leaving Linux testing to Phrononix.

Perhaps join his Discord and making a formal AskGN question so he can give his full position.

I'll do that then.