Thank You, LTT, For Giving Linux A Fair Shake

[Aremis]

At least in some accord.

 

I'm a simple computer user.  I play games, listen to spotify, go on facebook, and once in a blue moon I build my own apps when I need to (at least on X86, PPC and Sparc are another story).  In a world where linux runs absolutely everything, and we break the mold on several display technologies, services (thinking app stores, yup, thats our fault lol), and technologies.... I would, for one, think that linux would get more coverage by tech channels because of how wide spread it is.

 

This is not the case.

 

As it stands, I'll call GN Steve (really GN in total) out for their refusal to include OpenGL and Vulkan in their benchmarks.  Their argument is fair, not enough users to justify it (though the market share argument is long in the tooth and complete BS), or just assuming that linux performance will be the same.  I'll tell you, its not.  I can either get WORSE performance or BETTER performance depending on the game, as well when you go to linux, different drivers now exist for older hardware that they often revisit.  Different hardware can just act differently on linux.  A 5700XT could be stronger in linux with a driver update.  But unless I hunt through Phoronix for 3 hours jumping between articles till I find the exact one I need, I'm not going to know that shit.  And its not like its all that hard to just....  put in 2 extra data points and include a note on the side of any weirdness you noticed.

 

Like really steve, what the fuck dude.

 

Now, come over to the Chads at LTT, who to be fair don't include linux in their hardware reviews (yet), but actually give it a look.  Actually have somewhat of an interest in it.,  The fact that yall did a thelio review and GN didn't should say a lot, in my opinion.  And not just on GN.  I mean in YT reviews in general.  Linux users really want just some form of coverage that isn't DadsCamero1969 with 4 subs done on a DV tape recorder.  Any coverage for us is exciting because, other than our own news outlets that are literally only meant for us, no one knows what cool shit we have.

 

Like do any of you here know valve just put out an ACO driver for southern islands AMD cards that actually gives a 6% (on average) performance bump and includes cards like the R7 370 that was only useable with the ati driver?

 

No, probably not.  And I don't expect GN or Jay to do the research for that.  Nor even LTT.  But I expect a google search to pop up to one of my AMDGPU News / Info threads on the L1T forums, which in about 5 minutes you can learn what AMD is up to in linux nowadays.

 

So you know, congrats on ignoring easy information.

 

But at least we have.... something.  I'm not going to link one of my friends to a Phoronix article and expect them to know what the hell they're talking about in the article.  But you know what I could do?  Link a GN review, LTT review, Jay review, and I think we're finally getting somewhere with that.  I think its exciting that just the thelio getting a public review is a foothold enough to push for more to be done.  Hell, WE'LL DONATE TO COVER THE COST OF TIME AND STRESS, JUST GIVE US SOME HELP.

 

Ahem.

 

Anyways.

 

Point is, thank you Linus and the LTT team for not just laughing at us linux users when we ask "So uh hows that Thelio goin", or when we ask your opinion you don't blow us off.  Not only do I appreciate that, but I know a lot of other people do.

 

And steve if you're reading this, stop being lazy.

[Guest]

Why does every Youtuber have to cover everything? I'm sure GN would cover Linux if it was in their demographic, but it isn't. Going off and adding a whole new OS to their testing suite when they already stretch themselves thin is asking a lot. I feel like you are not looking at the people behind the scenes. There are other channels that cover Linux content. Calling Steve lazy because he refuses to cater to you is an unrealistic way to look at it and quite inconsiderate.

 

If there is something out there you want to see so badly that you have to insult another channel, go and make the content yourself. You seem to think it's easy enough...

[Aremis]

4 minutes ago, Den-Fi said:

Why does every Youtuber have to cover everything? I'm sure GN would cover Linux if it was in their demographic, but it isn't. Going off and adding a whole new OS to their testing suite when they already stretch themselves thin is asking a lot. I feel like you are not looking at the people behind the scenes. There are other channels that cover Linux content. Calling Steve lazy because he refuses to cater to you is an unrealistic way to look at it and quite inconsiderate.

 

If there is something out there you want to see so badly that you have to insult another channel, go and make the content yourself. You seem to think it's easy enough...

My point is linux users can make all the content they want, but all that we want is even just a mention of if something works on linux or not.  More than just "New game on valve, PC/Mac/Linux".  Theres other people who could comment on this, not just me.

 

Again, DadsCamero1969 could be anyone, honestly.  But if I cover stuff like Valve's ACO driver, no one would see.  If GN mentioned in a re-review of, say, a 7770 or something (7870, whatever card) that linux has a new driver that gives a 6% performance bump, thats it, thats all we'd need.

[Guest]

Just now, Aremis said:

My point is linux users can make all the content they want, but all that we want is even just a mention of if something works on linux or not.  More than just "New game on valve, PC/Mac/Linux".  Theres other people who could comment on this, not just me.

Yes, but what does GN being lazy have to do with that? You want them to take on Linux as if they have all the time in the world and the resources and manpower do it... I take no issue with you wanting more coverage, we all do. The problem is asking/demanding/complaining the way you are comes off as entitled and pushes your goal further away.

[PlayStation 2]

Everyone likes to be a know-it-all until it's actually time for them to tackle a subject at hand in a serious manner. And what this thread's showing me is a sense of entitlement. Not many people who watch GN use Linux or even give a shit about Linux. Much like what I said in another thread, other people do test games and other shit on Linux. Do your research and don't force people into doing your bidding because you don't feel like it.

[Aremis]

1 minute ago, Den-Fi said:

Yes, but what does GN being lazy have to do with that? You want them to take on Linux as if they have all the time in the world and the resources and manpower do it... I take no issue with you wanting more coverage, we all do. The problem is asking/demanding/complaining the way you are comes off as entitled and pushes your goal further away.

Anyone can load up windows and hit the go button on unigine or tomb raider and watch the temps go up in after burner.  Doing a shit load of tests can be a grind, sure.  I'll give you that.  Its hard work to manage ALL that data and make sure everything is straight.  Its not hard to mention something on the side.

[dizmo]

Haha, if you're building your own apps, you're far from a simple computer user.

 

Linux isn't really covered because it's not really a user friendly environment. It's far too complicated to use, and doesn't work with a lot of the apps that people will want. Does it work for some? Absolutely. However, it's far from the mass market, and that's what YouTubers cater to, because that's what will make them money.

 

Quote

unless I hunt through Phoronix for 3 hours jumping between articles till I find the exact one I need, I'm not going to know that shit.

Yeah, most users aren't going to do that. That's why Linus fails as a whole. It's not user friendly.

 

Here's a thought; maybe they just don't like Linux?

And that's perfectly fine.

[Aremis]

1 minute ago, handymanshandle said:

Everyone likes to be a know-it-all until it's actually time for them to tackle a subject at hand in a serious manner. And what this thread's showing me is a sense of entitlement. Not many people who watch GN use Linux or even give a shit about Linux. Much like what I said in another thread, other people do test games and other shit on Linux. Do your research and don't force people into doing your bidding because you don't feel like it.

Actually I do a lot of posts already trying to make information visible for the people doing the reviews so they can find out why an older card is performing slightly better.  Or just coverage of a new driver.

 

I do loads of research sir, I only request a start, not a full blown linux review.  LTT has done that start, and I am extremely happy with that.  I just wish channels that were verified for what they are capable of, GN being the best IMO for data analytics of performance on different hardware (and therefore the people I would trust the most with that sorta thing), I would hope they'd just give a mention.

 

Doesn't happen.  I just hope it will soon.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Aremis said:

Anyone can load up windows and hit the go button on unigine or tomb raider and watch the temps go up in after burner.  Doing a shit load of tests can be a grind, sure.  I'll give you that.  Its hard work to manage ALL that data and make sure everything is straight.  Its not hard to mention something on the side.

You're conveniently oversimplifying things strengthen your argument here. If anyone could do it, then LTT and HWU and GN would not have dedicated fanbases and you wouldn't have made this thread. The reality of the situation is that setting up these tests environments, running them reliably, and producing data that is trustworthy is hard and time consuming. Instead of diluting their work with meaningless oversimplification, your time would be better spent coming up with logical ways for them to easily implement this testing and present it in a respectful manner. Then you may see it happen. Right now, none of that is a reality. You're just saying things without thinking of the work required. 

[PlayStation 2]

2 minutes ago, Aremis said:

Actually I do a lot of posts already trying to make information visible for the people doing the reviews so they can find out why an older card is performing slightly better.  Or just coverage of a new driver.

 

I do loads of research sir, I only request a start, not a full blown linux review.  LTT has done that start, and I am extremely happy with that.  I just wish channels that were verified for what they are capable of, GN being the best IMO for data analytics of performance on different hardware (and therefore the people I would trust the most with that sorta thing), I would hope they'd just give a mention.

 

Doesn't happen.  I just hope it will soon.

Woah, then go advertise it here or somewhere instead of complaining about GN not doing Linux content.

[Aremis]

11 minutes ago, dizmo said:

Haha, if you're building your own apps, you're far from a simple computer user.

While true, its far from difficult to download something from github, open the folder in a terminal, and type 'make install'.  Its merely a part of using linux sometimes.

 

11 minutes ago, dizmo said:

Linux isn't really covered because it's not really a user friendly environment. It's far too complicated to use, and doesn't work with a lot of the apps that people will want. Does it work for some? Absolutely. However, it's far from the mass market, and that's what YouTubers cater to, because that's what will make them money.

 

While I would have agreed with that, say, 5 years ago, now we have popos, elementaryos, ubuntu, all doing a shitload of work to make sure that anything works, that theres no hangups, that you can just plug in your nvidia gpu and not have to screw around with stuff so much.  Hell even AMD cards just work.  And not quote en quote, like you can start streaming first install right away.  Apt in some obs, plug in your audio, install steam, download game, go.

 

I don't see whats so "user unfriendly" about that.  Especially with an app store.

 

To add, I don't see where its "So difficult" to setup a testbench on the side to even just see if something works.  I don't need 8 hour grinds on shit, no one is asking that.  Just some bloody effort.

 

11 minutes ago, dizmo said:

Here's a thought; maybe they just don't like Linux?

And that's perfectly fine.

Sure but then why mention linux on some things and not others?

[Aremis]

4 minutes ago, Den-Fi said:

You're conveniently oversimplifying things strengthen your argument here. If anyone could do it, then LTT and HWU and GN would not have dedicated fanbases and you wouldn't have made this thread. The reality of the situation is that setting up these tests environments, running them reliably, and producing data that is trustworthy is hard and time consuming. Instead of diluting their work with meaningless oversimplification, your time would be better spent coming up with logical ways for them to easily implement this testing and present it in a respectful manner. Then you may see it happen. Right now, none of that is a reality. You're just saying things without thinking of the work required. 

Well seeing as many people have put things together before, I'd think the request is enough to just google "Linux Gaming Benchmark".  Or just linux benchmarks at all.  Its not like blender doesn't have a port.

 

This is information thats already known that is literally on the front of the website.  Why should I have to mention that there happens to be a linux port of a benchmark that everyone already uses when they literally stare at the page.

[Aremis]

5 minutes ago, handymanshandle said:

Woah, then go advertise it here or somewhere instead of complaining about GN not doing Linux content.

I would, but a group of windows users is hardly the place I'd start with that lol.  Its why I'm at least on L1T forums.  I used to have a blog for that sorta thing but I wanted eyes to actually look at it.

 

Again, if its not in a public space, no one will even know its there.

 

IE, linux.

Get it yet?

[lewdicrous]

LTT made a video on Windows and on macOS where they asked their viewers to explain why they like a particular OS, Linux was inevitable. 

Just cause someone doesn't mention something you like, that doesn't mean that they're lazy or whatever, it just means that the thing that you like is not what their channel is built upon. 

[Aremis]

Just now, lewdicrous said:

LTT made a video on Windows and on macOS where they asked their viewers to explain why they like a particular OS, Linux was inevitable. 

Just cause someone doesn't mention something you like, that doesn't mean that they're lazy or whatever, it just means that the thing that you like is not what their channel is built upon. 

They don't have to build their channel on it, just a mention on the side would be enough.  See my above posts.

[Sauron]

I'm a strong proponent of Linux for virtually everything,

HOWEVER,

playing videogames is the one thing I don't recommend it for. If all you want to do with your computer is play games, Linux is not the correct choice unless you have an ideological barrier against all forms of proprietary software (in which case I would question your priorities considering almost all games are proprietary, even the ones that are free as in beer and run on Linux) or you can't afford Windows or are otherwise unable to use it on your computer. It's nice to be able to play games on Linux but it's a trade-off I would only take if I wanted to use Linux for a bunch of things that are not videogames and then wanted to get a couple of games in, too.

 

As for youtubers covering it, you need to realize that 1) every distribution will perform slightly (sometimes very) differently and 2) a channel called GamersNexus is unlikely to have a significant audience that uses Linux.

 

As I said in the last thread that demanded something from techtubers, stop concern trolling over some imagined audience they're not reaching - they have a lot more information than you on this and are grown adults capable of making their own business decisions.

27 minutes ago, Aremis said:

Now, come over to the Chads at LTT, who to be fair don't include linux in their hardware reviews (yet), but actually give it a look.  Actually have somewhat of an interest in it.

Yes, they are interested while GN is not. How is that a problem with GN?

 

Also to be honest I don't care about something like the Thelio in the same way I don't care about the Mac Pro - it's an incredibly expensive prebuilt with nothing of particular interest for the DIY crowd. I'm not going to comment on whether it's a good product for someone or not but I really, really can't bring myself to care how it performs and I would bet money that the vast majority of Linux users aren't buying something like that, let alone the small crossover of DIY pc "gamers" and Linux enthusiasts. Channels like these are primarily about hardware, the software that you'll run on them is secondary.

3 minutes ago, Aremis said:

I would, but a group of windows users is hardly the place I'd start with that lol.  Its why I'm at least on L1T forums.  I used to have a blog for that sorta thing but I wanted eyes to actually look at it.

What a coincidence, I was also a writer for a fairly large Linux blog in my country at one point. I stopped because it just wasn't worth the effort; realistically there just isn't enough quality content to keep both me and the audience engaged on a daily basis. Now if I feel like sharing something cool about Linux I just post it here, it's a popular enough forum that people can find the guide if they're looking for information on that topic.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Aremis said:

Well seeing as many people have put things together before, I'd think the request is enough to just google "Linux Gaming Benchmark".  Or just linux benchmarks at all.  Its not like blender doesn't have a port.

 

This is information thats already known that is literally on the front of the website.  Why should I have to mention that there happens to be a linux port of a benchmark that everyone already uses when they literally stare at the page.

So you want someone to do something, but you want them to google the information because  "I'd think the request is enough to just google "Linux Gaming Benchmark".

 

It's incredible how you can be so dismissive of doing work, but call GN lazy. The fact of the matter is that this will never happen with the level of expectations you have of others vs. what you're doing yourself. I think it's quite clear that this post is a jaded rant with no other thought put behind it. You have no solution to the problem other than "they should just google it."

 

[RonnieOP]

19 minutes ago, Aremis said:

Anyone can load up windows and hit the go button on unigine or tomb raider and watch the temps go up in after burner.  Doing a shit load of tests can be a grind, sure.  I'll give you that.  Its hard work to manage ALL that data and make sure everything is straight.  Its not hard to mention something on the side.

Its not hard. But its also not worth the time or effort.

 

Linux user make up very very little of the market. And linux gamers an even smaller part of that.

 

Its not a bs argument to bring up the marketshare its just facts.

 

But the good news is that you can find channels that cover linux really easily. But you shouldnt expect everyone to spend time and money for 1% of their viewers. Theres just no point.

[Aremis]

16 minutes ago, Sauron said:

I'm a strong proponent of Linux for virtually everything,

HOWEVER,

playing videogames is the one thing I don't recommend it for. If all you want to do with your computer is play games, Linux is not the correct choice unless you have an ideological barrier against all forms of proprietary software (in which case I would question your priorities considering almost all games are proprietary, even the ones that are free as in beer and run on Linux) or you can't afford Windows or are otherwise unable to use it on your computer. It's nice to be able to play games on Linux but it's a trade-off I would only take if I wanted to use Linux for a bunch of things that are not videogames and then wanted to get a couple of games in, too.

Ok, I'm not even asking specifically for gaming benchmarks though.  Even if it was just blender or something.  Literally anything.  Build firefox like LTT did.  Something.  Anything.  If they didn't do tomb raider, do unigine.  Do SOMETHING. 

 

16 minutes ago, Sauron said:

As for youtubers covering it, you need to realize that 1) every distribution will perform slightly (sometimes very) differently and 2) a channel called GamersNexus is unlikely to have a significant audience that uses Linux.

 

As I said in the last thread that demanded something from techtubers, stop concern trolling over some imagined audience they're not reaching - they have a lot more information than you on this and are grown adults capable of making their own business decisions.

Yes, they are interested while GN is not. How is that a problem with GN?

While, yes, arch would run differently to void would run differently to fedora would run differently to tiny core, don't bother with that shit and cover ubuntu.  Literally just the general audience.

 

My problem is that GN is the best channel for that sort of coverage and I've seen many many people ask about coverage only to be ignored.  Again, just a mention of literally anything.  "This happens to run on ubuntu pretty well too" would literally be the only thing we'd want.  "Ubuntu has drivers for the 5600XT that makes it plug and play, making it a quick and easy solution for XYZ."  I don't see where thats a big undertaking.

 

As well, that anything is mentioned is appreciated.

 

I feel like I shouldn't have to mention this either, but theres a large crowd displaced from windows 7 now that refuse to upgrade but want something new.  Is there not something to be said for that audience that, by the way, happens to hold a large percentage on Steam and probably watch these channels?

 

16 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Also to be honest I don't care about something like the Thelio in the same way I don't care about the Mac Pro - it's an incredibly expensive prebuilt with nothing of particular interest for the DIY crowd. I'm not going to comment on whether it's a good product for someone or not but I really, really can't bring myself to care how it performs and I would bet money that the vast majority of Linux users aren't buying something like that, let alone the small crossover of DIY pc "gamers" and Linux enthusiasts. Channels like these are primarily about hardware, the software that you'll run on them is secondary.

The fact that that sort of product exists and is just easy to setup and go with, with actually solid hardware in a nice case....  I have a feeling most people think of linux and they think of a pentium 4 machine sitting in a literal pizza box, not a workstation or a machine that is pretty gaming capable.

 

Also, linux games just fine.  I actually get better performance in linux on my MSI GS63VR than I do in windows a lot of the time, the only reason it has windows on it right now is because I want to play escape from tarkov that badly.  I think the fact that you can plug in a GPU and start playing witcher oat ultra on a 144hz monitor in 4k is pretty cool.  But I can't tell you HOW MANY threads I have had to answer asking about installing amd gpu drivers, even tho they are built in and they don't need to do anything.  Often with the fix to such things being "Oh, update to 19.04, you'll get even better performance".

 

16 minutes ago, Sauron said:

What a coincidence, I was also a writer for a fairly large Linux blog in my country at one point. I stopped because it just wasn't worth the effort; realistically there just isn't enough quality content to keep both me and the audience engaged on a daily basis. Now if I feel like sharing something cool about Linux I just post it here, it's a popular enough forum that people can find the guide if they're looking for information on that topic.

Yup.  Its why I'm on L1T.  My blog was just mine though, nothing like ItsFOSS or anything like that.  I don't exactly expect people to dig thru itsFOSS or Phoronix though, as mentioned previously.

[Aremis]

13 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Its not hard. But its also not worth the time or effort.

 

Linux user make up very very little of the market. And linux gamers an even smaller part of that.

 

Its not a bs argument to bring up the marketshare its just facts.

 

But the good news is that you can find channels that cover linux really easily. But you shouldnt expect everyone to spend time and money for 1% of their viewers. Theres just no point.

Marketshare is BS at this point IMO.  The stats aren't even realistic because not everyone knows people are looking for those stats, have any interest in sharing those stats because they're paranoid (either stallmanites or windows users nervous to share info, which is fair tbh), or just refuse to share info at all.

 

Look at this thread I made on steam.

 

https://steamcommunity.com/groups/steamlug/discussions/2/622954747298971963/

 

I made this thread forever ago, and sure theres some repeat posters in there, including me, but theres hundreds of posters in there that would appreciate some info on these channels.  And not everyone in that group has replied, not even every linux user on steam is in that group.

 

Its a rough percentage of linux users on steam, not all of them.

 

Again, not everyone will send their stats.

[lewdicrous]

Hey, maybe you're not the target audience, ever thought of that?

They're not obligated to give you what you want and you're not forced to watch them.

Watch the content creators that have similar interests and stop forcing others to go out of their way just to please you.

[Aremis]

21 minutes ago, Den-Fi said:

So you want someone to do something, but you want them to google the information because  "I'd think the request is enough to just google "Linux Gaming Benchmark".

 

It's incredible how you can be so dismissive of doing work, but call GN lazy. The fact of the matter is that this will never happen with the level of expectations you have of others vs. what you're doing yourself. I think it's quite clear that this post is a jaded rant with no other thought put behind it. You have no solution to the problem other than "they should just google it."

 

Yeah it won't happen with people like you always shooting it down.  Attitudes like that are stagnant and bad for users.

[Sauron]

1 minute ago, Aremis said:

Ok, I'm not even asking specifically for gaming benchmarks though.  Even if it was just blender or something.  Literally anything.  Build firefox like LTT did.  Something.  Anything.  If they didn't do tomb raider, do unigine.  Do SOMETHING. 

But why? How much of their audience do you think uses Blender on a daily basis? How many Linux users do you think use Blender on a daily basis?

2 minutes ago, Aremis said:

While, yes, arch would run differently to void would run differently to fedora would run differently to tiny core, don't bother with that shit and cover ubuntu.  Literally just the general audience.

The general audience uses Windows.

3 minutes ago, Aremis said:

"This happens to run on ubuntu pretty well too" would literally be the only thing we'd want.  "Ubuntu has drivers for the 5600XT that makes it plug and play, making it a quick and easy solution for XYZ."  I don't see where thats a big undertaking.

What if it isn't plug and play? Now they have to explain why it isn't and make sure that it's not human error on their part. That's time and work. They have standards of quality, as they should, so no, a passing mention and 5 minutes on Google isn't good enough to include it in a video.

5 minutes ago, Aremis said:

The fact that that sort of product exists and is just easy to setup and go with, with actually solid hardware in a nice case....  I have a feeling most people think of linux and they think of a pentium 4 machine sitting in a literal pizza box, not a workstation or a machine that is pretty gaming capable.

Irrelevant, as I said people generally don't (and in my opinion shouldn't) use Linux primarily for games.

6 minutes ago, Aremis said:

Also, linux games just fine.

"Fine" isn't good enough if something does it consistently better and the machine is mainly used for that purpose.

6 minutes ago, Aremis said:

I actually get better performance in linux on my MSI GS63VR than I do in windows a lot of the time

Anecdotal evidence, a couple of games performing marginally better doesn't counteract the hundreds if not thousands that you literally cannot play.

8 minutes ago, Aremis said:

I don't exactly expect people to dig thru itsFOSS or Phoronix though, as mentioned previously.

Why do you expect them to "dig through" a GN video? Youtube videos are infinitely less searchable than something like Phoronix, by their very nature. At least Phoronix shows up on Google when you search for "Linux amd gpu" whereas a youtube video won't unless it's in the title.

[Aremis]

Just now, lewdicrous said:

Hey, maybe you're not the target audience, ever thought of that?

Absolutely.  I'm not the only one requesting info tho.

 

Just now, lewdicrous said:

They're not obligated to give you what you want and you're not forced to watch them.

Watch the content creators that have similar interests and stop forcing others to go out of their way just to please you.

Its not like I'm asking them to go to LFNW or anything like that, I'm not asking them to suddenly become enthusiasts or anything, just a mention of "This works well in ubuntu for games or blender" would be good enough.  Theres many users that, as I mentioned above, are displaced from windows now that would use linux if they knew that stuff worked.  If they wanted to know HOW TO USE it, they could go to level 1 techs.  If they wanted to know IF THEY COULD use it, they would go to LTT or GN for that.  Its why GN does follow ups on older hardware and compare it to current.

 

Literally, 3 seconds on the side.  Thats all linux users are asking for.

 

We'll even send money to help with the cost of time.  Its not like we're not generous.

[Curious Pineapple]

Here we go again