Motherboard VRM Tier List v2 (currently AMD only)

[brunonicocam]

8 minutes ago, Haro said:

I'm not sure where you got that VRM info from, but the B550 Gaming Edge WIFI has a 5 phase with 10 ISL99360 60A power stages, and does not use the 4C029N and 4C024N discrete MOSFETs found on the B450 Tomahawk. 

You're right! I was checking the Gaming Plus by mistake. So many names and models!

 

So the difference would be 10 ISL99360 60A vs 8 4C029N 48A and 8 4C024N 74A then, right? How does that make the Gaming Edge better then? Should I just do 10 x 60A = 600A vs 8x 48A + 8x 74A = 992A? Or is the double mofset setup limited by the smallest one, so 8x 48A = 384A.

I'd be interested to know how all these power requirements are calculated in order to arrive at the right set up.

Thanks a lot!

[Haro]

1 minute ago, brunonicocam said:

I'd be interested to know how all these power requirements are calculated in order to arrive at the right set up.

For example, Let's say a board has 10 70A power stages, so in theory, the maximum current capabilities for the board is 700A, though if you pull 70A through each power stage, they would produce so much heat it would be practically uncoolable. So techincally you can pull 600A through the Gaming Edge, though it will be basically uncoolable. But at reasonable current levels that you'll be pulling, the Gaming edge is significantly better than the Tomahawk, as those 60A power stages are more efficient than the discrete MOSFETs found on the Tomahawk. 

Though the Tomahawk should handle the 12 core just fine. You could try pointing a fan at the VRM and seeing if the VRM was actually throttling or not to make sure. 

[brunonicocam]

6 minutes ago, Haro said:

For example, Let's say a board has 10 70A power stages, so in theory, the maximum current capabilities for the board is 700A, though if you pull 70A through each power stage, they would produce so much heat it would be practically uncoolable. So techincally you can pull 600A through the Gaming Edge, though it will be basically uncoolable. But at reasonable current levels that you'll be pulling, the Gaming edge is significantly better than the Tomahawk, as those 60A power stages are more efficient than the discrete MOSFETs found on the Tomahawk. 

Though the Tomahawk should handle the 12 core just fine. You could try pointing a fan at the VRM and seeing if the VRM was actually throttling or not to make sure. 

Thanks. Yeah, I'll play around with the fans, but I'm interested in knowing how the VRMs work at the moment.

How many amps does the Ryzen 5900x need? When I was running Cinebench I was seeing around 150W of power going through the CPU and a Voltage of around 1.2. So, to get the amps I should divide power by volts so 150W/1.2V = 125A?

Then, as far as I understand, each phase has to provide those amps when it's its turn in the cycle, right? So how come a 60A mofset can provide 125A. There has to be something wrong in my logic.

But I'd like to know how all this maths works.

Thanks

[Haro]

33 minutes ago, brunonicocam said:

. So, to get the amps I should divide power by volts so 150W/1.2V = 125A?

Yes. 

33 minutes ago, brunonicocam said:

How many amps does the Ryzen 5900x need?

Stock, a 3900x/5900x pulls around 100A, maxed out, they pull around 150A. 

 

33 minutes ago, brunonicocam said:

So how come a 60A mofset can provide 125A. There has to be something wrong in my logic.

A single power stage does not provide 125 Amps, in the case of the Gaming Edge, there are 10 60A stages for the Vcore, and all of the 10 power stages work to provide the 125 Amps.

Assuming the current going through those 10 stages is perfectly balanced, then each stage will be providing 12.5 Amps. Though in the real world, you can't really have the same amount of current going through each phase/power stage, one phase/stage will be providing more/less current than the other. Some doublers like the ISL6617 can monitor the current going through 2 phases and do a PWM pulse extension to one phase if the other phase is providing more current to even things out a bit, which results in better efficiency, some VRM controllers like the IR35201 can also do that.   

[brunonicocam]

14 minutes ago, Haro said:

Yes. 

Stock, a 3900x/5900x pulls around 100A, maxed out, they pull around 150A. 

 

A single power stage does not provide 125 Amps, in the case of the Gaming Edge, there are 10 60A stages for the Vcore, and all of the 10 power stages work to provide the 125 Amps.

Assuming the current going through those 10 stages is perfectly balanced, then each stage will be providing 12.5 Amps. Though in the real world, you can't really have the same amount of current going through each phase/power stage, one phase/stage will be providing more/less current than the other. Some doublers like the ISL6617 can monitor the current going through 2 phases and do a PWM pulse extension to one phase if the other phase is providing more current to even things out, which results in better efficiency, some VRM controllers like the IR35201 can also do that.   

OK, that's useful! So 12.5 Amps per Mofset is a clear indication of its expected performance.

So, what about the B450 Tomahawk, with the 4+2 phases but the 8x ON Semiconductor 4C029N + 8x ON Semiconductor 4C024N? How would the maths work? Should I divide the 125 A by 8, so 15.6 A per Mofset? How does this dual Mofset design work? I still don't understand how this dual Mofset design works, and why each 4C024N and 4C029N have different 48A and 74A ratings. Does one deal with low currents and the other with high ones? Or is the whole set up limited by the weaker Mofset?

Thanks!

[Haro]

1 minute ago, brunonicocam said:

So 12.5 Amps per Mofset is a clear indication of its expected performance.

No. As I said, the load on a power stage is different from another in the real world. You wont have 100% exact current handling on a board's power stages. 

2 minutes ago, brunonicocam said:

How does this dual Mofset design work?

With discrete MOSFETs, there's a High Side, Low Side and a Driver IC. A power stage integrates all three of these in one package. The 4C029N is a High Side MOSFET, and the 4C024N is a Low Side MOSFET.

The High Side MOSFET handles less current than the Low Side MOSFET. 

3 minutes ago, brunonicocam said:

Should I divide the 125 A by 8, so 15.6 A per Mofset?

No. Again, as I said, each MOSFET will not be handling the same amount of current as the other one. 

 

If you want to learn more about the voltage regulators on boards, you can watch BuildZoid, he makes PCB breakdowns for boards and explains how the VRMs work. 

[brunonicocam]

13 minutes ago, Haro said:

No. As I said, the load on a power stage is different from another in the real world. You wont have 100% exact current handling on a board's power stages. 

With discrete MOSFETs, there's a High Side, Low Side and a Driver IC. A power stage integrates all three of these in one package. The 4C029N is a High Side MOSFET, and the 4C024N is a Low Side MOSFET.

The High Side MOSFET handles less current than the Low Side MOSFET. 

No. Again, as I said, each MOSFET will not be handling the same amount of current as the other one. 

 

If you want to learn more about the voltage regulators on boards, you can watch BuildZoid, he makes PCB breakdowns for boards and explains how the VRMs work. 

Thanks! Yeah, I saw BuildZoid videos but I still have many questions.

I know that you're not going to get exactly 125A over number of phases of current per Mofset, but I still think that would be a great indication for beginners for comparison purposes.

Anyway, I'll try with better cooling and otherwise see whether I can find any actualy reviews of better VRMs tested on the 5900x/5950x.

[gjn]

Hey guys,

 

what EDC,TDC,PPT limits do you recommend for my X570 Aorus Elite with a 5950X?

I tried 'Motherboard' limits and the CPU fully used the set 215 Amps EDC. (~ 215W Power) The VRMs didn't really like it, since they were at 105°C after a few minutes. (HWInfo Software Reading)

 

For now I set it to PPT: 200W, TDC: 120A, EDC: 160A

The VR Loop1 sensor reports 85°C max now. I guess that's reasonable?

[Jurrunio]

5 hours ago, brunonicocam said:

So no doublers but twice as many Mofsets,

No, Gaming Plus has 10 sets of mosfets, 5 phase from controller * 2(doublers) * 1(set of mosfet per signal phase) while your B450 Tomahawk has 8, 4 phase from controller * 2 sets of mosfet per signal phase)

 

4 hours ago, brunonicocam said:

So the difference would be 10 ISL99360 60A vs 8 4C029N 48A and 8 4C024N 74A then, right?

Current ratings on mosfets are not comparable to those of dual N-fets (which are two discreet mosfets built into a single package) or powerstages (dual N-fets with driver circuit integrated, more expensive ones have even more function). The current ratings are tested by placing one of such component on a PCB and pushing current through it, which gives them far better cooling than being cramped on a motherboard would. If you should only expect half the powerstage's current rating to be doable on a motherboard, then it would be 1/4 to 1/5 for a discreet mosfet.

[brunonicocam]

1 hour ago, Jurrunio said:

No, Gaming Plus has 10 sets of mosfets, 5 phase from controller * 2(doublers) * 1(set of mosfet per signal phase) while your B450 Tomahawk has 8, 4 phase from controller * 2 sets of mosfet per signal phase)

 

Current ratings on mosfets are not comparable to those of dual N-fets (which are two discreet mosfets built into a single package) or powerstages (dual N-fets with driver circuit integrated, more expensive ones have even more function). The current ratings are tested by placing one of such component on a PCB and pushing current through it, which gives them far better cooling than being cramped on a motherboard would. If you should only expect half the powerstage's current rating to be doable on a motherboard, then it would be 1/4 to 1/5 for a discreet mosfet.

Thanks! OK, that's useful too, so powerstages are basically better than discreet mosfets then. Well, then that explains why the B550 gaming edge is considerably better than the B450 Tomahawk Max2. One more phase, double the number of chokes and powerstages instead of discreet mosfets. Thanks!

[weyim40349]

Are both Realtek RTL8125B and Intel I225V NICs fine now? I still see tons of issues with the 2.5Gb Ethernet, I don't wanna end up having problems. S:

[Jurrunio]

16 minutes ago, weyim40349 said:

Are both Realtek RTL8125B and Intel I225V NICs fine now? I still see tons of issues with the 2.5Gb Ethernet, I don't wanna end up having problems. S:

I dont think the RTL has any widespread flaws. New boards made with new I225V should also be ok now.

[weyim40349]

Well, I could get B550 Tomahawk for around 160€ or Asus B550-F for around 190€. I couldn't believe it, but the Tomahawk has dual LAN, so I would be safe using the 1Gb port if the 2.5Gb has any issue, and also I think it has slightly better power delivery, just worse aesthethics and less ports on the back.

[satrianiboys]

Is the Asus B450 TUF Pro S really that good?

i'm looking for max cpu compatibility board with the best vrm

 

Nobody here seem to have that board and no reviews either

Also there's Asus TUF b450m-pro gaming variant, is it the same?

[Jurrunio]

53 minutes ago, satrianiboys said:

Is the Asus B450 TUF Pro S really that good?

i'm looking for max cpu compatibility board with the best vrm

 

Nobody here seem to have that board and no reviews either

Also there's Asus TUF b450m-pro gaming variant, is it the same?

It's a B550 TUF mATX with downgraded chipset and PCIe. Yes it is that good.

 

Different, that board's older and much weaker.

[Oat]

Wondering where you'd put the B450-F Strix II at, as it's quite a step up from its basic predecessor.

[Haro]

49 minutes ago, Oat said:

as it's quite a step up from its basic predecessor.

Same subpart overpriced board with basically the same VRM (Just added more of the same High Side MOSFETs) and only added a BIOS flashback button.

So tier E/D. 

[Jurrunio]

5 hours ago, Oat said:

Wondering where you'd put the B450-F Strix II at, as it's quite a step up from its basic predecessor.

It's a B450-E with BIOS flashback button, so tier D. It's not a big step uo by any means.

[Sparke]

1st, dont read my previous post i was on a tangent, was conviced its best to get a 3600 and reasonable B450 board now and invest later to replace the dinky (best you dont ask) ram i have now, so I have 3 options, (budget contraints) so i can get a steel legend (SL) m or full and mortar max (MM), anything listed in tier J or above my budget, including mortar max (which has worse io than the other, addicted to usb ports) unfortunately. 

 

I know MM is better than SL, if and when i go find a used far superior CPU later on. I have seen comments mention about gigabytes shrouds keeping the heat up, would removing the shroud on the SL allow it to creep into a higher tier or are the VRMs really that much lower on the SL than the MM.

 

Reasons I am concidering the SL, I have a P400 DRGB white with 8 fans

 

1. Its White (ish)

2. It can control my drgb, though using a arduino at the moment

3. I should have sufficient air flowing through the case (2 fans are jerry rigged to the PSU grate/shroud for GPU help)

4. I intend on getting a tower cooler over the AIO, unless a 280 AIO is a much better investment than the PH-TC12DX, cant fit PH-TC14PE, i mention as it will affect air over the VRM

[Jurrunio]

1 hour ago, Sparke said:

would removing the shroud on the SL allow it to creep into a higher tier or are the VRMs really that much lower on the SL than the MM.

it's less efficient mosfets on worse heatsinks even after taking the shroud off. Unless you use a downdraft with the SL, don't increase power budget to anything with more than 6 cores.

[Sparke]

1 hour ago, Jurrunio said:

it's less efficient mosfets on worse heatsinks even after taking the shroud off. Unless you use a downdraft with the SL, don't increase power budget to anything with more than 6 cores.

Awesome thanks for the response

[iSimple]

If i can get Asus ROG B550-F same/similar price as MSI B550 A-Pro. Which one would you advise to get?

[Haro]

5 minutes ago, iSimple said:

Which one would you advise to get?

The Strix-F is techincally better out of these two. 

[Jurrunio]

1 hour ago, iSimple said:

If i can get Asus ROG B550-F same/similar price as MSI B550 A-Pro. Which one would you advise to get?

MSI one. Asus one uses the problematic Intel 2.5G LAN which even if it's fixed, is still a risk and won't benefit you without network bandwidth that goes beyond 1Gb. However in this case either the A Pro is very expensive or the B550-F is really cheap, without knowing the actual price I wouldnt say the MSI board is my go-to board.

[celloh]

Is B450M-A Pro Max Tier F or Tier C?

 

 

Also how bad it is to pair it with a 3600? Because that's what I did lol