Xbox Series X

[Mark Kaine]

39 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

While a lot of games render at lower resolutions and upscale, some indeed do run and are rendered at native 4K - same with on the One X

Btw,  Sony lost actually a court case a few years ago saying exactly this.

 

Upscaled no matter the method = not "native" rendering resolution. 

 

 

You can blow up (upscale) anything to 4k,  8k, 10k... it doesn't even cost much compute power,  but that is not the real resolution, it's only the output resolution. 

 

It's simply a marketing gimmick and will never have as good image quality than "native" resolution. 

 

 

[dalekphalm]

Just now, Mark Kaine said:

Btw,  Sony lost actually a court case a few years ago saying exactly this.

 

Upscaled no matter the method = not "native" rendering resolution. 

 

 

You can blow up (upscale) anything to 4k,  8k, 10k... it doesn't even cost much compute power,  but that is not the real resolution, it's only the output resolution. 

 

It's simply a marketing gimmick and will never have as good image quality than "native" resolution. 

Sure - but what's your point? Some games do indeed run at rendered and native 4K on the PS4 Pro and One X - to say otherwise is simply incorrect.

[Mark Kaine]

1 minute ago, dalekphalm said:

Sure - but what's your point? Some games do indeed run at rendered and native 4K on the PS4 Pro and One X - to say otherwise is simply incorrect.

 

Some games sure yeah.  I didn't see that you said "some" though, I thought you meant all games regardless of internal resolution (which was the court thing Sony famously lost lol)  But yeah,  I actually missed you said "some", sorry about that. 

 

 

 

[dalekphalm]

1 minute ago, Mark Kaine said:

Some games sure yeah.  I didn't see that you said "some" though, I thought you meant all games regardless of internal resolution (which was the court thing Sony famously lost lol)  But yeah,  I actually missed you said "some", sorry about that. 

Yes indeed, some games are upscaled, and some are native.

[JZStudios]

2 hours ago, Nowak said:

So apparently the product is just called the Xbox while Series X is just the specific model name, so that means that we've had three Xbox consoles in a row with essentially the same name.

 

For those of you not keeping track, that'd be the Xbox, Xbox One and... Xbox.

 

microsoft wyd

Negative, that's 4 generations in a row with the same name.

Xbox

Xbox 360

Xbox One

Xbox... again...

 

360 is just a circle and gets you back at the starting point, it reduces down to 1. Literally every console they've had has the same name.

1 hour ago, The1Dickens said:

Maybe it's just me, but I'd much rather we stopped calling it 4K because it isn't really 4K... but that's a whole 'nother other battle...

It's almost 4k. What's kind of annoying is that it flipped from vertical resolution to horizontal resolution, otherwise it would probably be called 2k or 2160. I think for a time period when it was new there were a few TVs n' such that actually were 4k, just for added confusion. The difference between 4k and UHD or whatever.

[Nowak]

2 minutes ago, JZStudios said:

Negative, that's 4 generations in a row with the same name.

Xbox

Xbox 360

Xbox One

Xbox... again...

 

360 is just a circle and gets you back at the starting point, it reduces down to 1. Literally every console they've had has the same name.

Incredible. Absolutely incredible.

 

Then again, this is the company that thought that "squirting" was an acceptable term for sharing media between Zune devices.

[JZStudios]

1 minute ago, Nowak said:

Then again, this is the company that thought that "squirting" was an acceptable term for sharing media between Zune devices.

Incredible. Absolutely incredible.

 

I've never heard that, and my brother had a Zune.

[Nowak]

1 minute ago, JZStudios said:

Incredible. Absolutely incredible.

 

I've never heard that, and my brother had a Zune.

I read it somewhere before.

[JZStudios]

1 minute ago, Nowak said:

I read it somewhere before.

A quick google search shows you are 100% correct.

[Nowak]

1 minute ago, JZStudios said:

A quick google search shows you are 100% correct.

why is microsoft so terrible at naming things lol

[The1Dickens]

6 minutes ago, JZStudios said:

It's almost 4k. What's kind of annoying is that it flipped from vertical resolution to horizontal resolution, otherwise it would probably be called 2k or 2160. I think for a time period when it was new there were a few TVs n' such that actually were 4k, just for added confusion. The difference between 4k and UHD or whatever.

 

Yeah I agree with that flipped rotation call-out; 2160p is what it should be (and what it actually is), be it 3840 or 4096 (16:9 or 256:135), but it keeps the 16:9 aspect ratio. 2K is actually 2048x1080, following the 256:135 ratio, but consumer displays have been running with 16:9, which gives us the 1920x1080. And then we have 1440p, or 2560x1440 16:9 aspect ratio. Or we have 1920x1080 16:9 versus the 1920x1200 16:10 aspect ratio, which was common for a while. Of course, before that, most home displays were 4:3, so your 720p display was 960x720. It was much easier to just say your content was whatever height, and let width be variable. Aspect ratios start to get super crazy, too, though...

 

And yes, there was a point where 4K and UHD were being sold side-by-side, but 4K was more expensive to make up the costs, as the yield was lower. Manufacturers get better yield from screens that are 3840 versus 4096 high. You can still get 4096x2160 monitors, though. I imagine you'd be hard pressed to find a 4096x2160 TV.

[Brooksie359]

1 hour ago, dalekphalm said:

I'll concede that you didn't outright say "4K on consoles is fake" - but you kept saying the same thing over and over again "4K on console isn't comparable to 4K on PC".

 

Which is false.

 

4K is a resolution.

 

That's it.

 

3840 x 2160 is the same on Xbox One X as it is on any PC capable of that resolution.

 

If you mean graphical fidelity, then say so. Stop talking about 4K when that's irrelevant. Start talking about the actual differences - higher graphical settings, etc.

 

And it's true, with some PC's. A PC running a 2080 Ti with graphics settings set to Ultra/Max is going to most likely look better than an Xbox One X running the same game - regardless of what resolutions are being used in either machine.

 

But that has nothing to do with 4K.

 

Examples of your language below:

 

 

 

That makes absolutely 0 sense. While 4k is a resolution there are graphics settings that are tied to it and to not take that into account when comparing 4k on pc vs 4k on console is simply ridiculous. At that point you would say that upscaling is running a game in 4k because it is still technically outputting at 4k right? When you select to run something at 4k there are certainly textures and settings that were created for that 4k resolution and those settings on pc are different on console so yeah 4k on pc is different. 

[Derangel]

1 hour ago, Mark Kaine said:

Btw,  Sony lost actually a court case a few years ago saying exactly this.

 

Upscaled no matter the method = not "native" rendering resolution. 

 

 

You can blow up (upscale) anything to 4k,  8k, 10k... it doesn't even cost much compute power,  but that is not the real resolution, it's only the output resolution. 

 

It's simply a marketing gimmick and will never have as good image quality than "native" resolution. 

 

 

There is some loss though I’d argue most people, even those that know what to look for, wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between 1800p and 4K or good 4K checkerboarding. At least not without stopping to analyze the frame.

[ZacoAttaco]

1 hour ago, Nowak said:

why is microsoft so terrible at naming things lol

I mean it's low hanging fruit but they skipped Windows 9. Plus, how many iterations of Windows music was there?

• Zune Music Marketplace
  • Zune Music Pass
• Xbox Music
• Groove Music
  • Groove Music Pass

Obviously not to be confused with Microsoft Office Groove...

[JZStudios]

2 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

While 4k is a resolution there are graphics settings that are tied to it

No there aren't. It's a resolution. Resolution does not have any graphics settings of any kind tied to it. Literally none.

 

3 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

At that point you would say that upscaling is running a game in 4k because it is still technically outputting at 4k right?

No. The internal resolution isn't 4k. The game is running at x resolution and outputting at scaled 4k.

 

3 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

When you select to run something at 4k there are certainly textures and settings that were created for that 4k resolution and those settings on pc are different on console so yeah 4k on pc is different. 

So if I play F.E.A.R. on my PC at 4k, I'm not actually playing it at 4k because I don't have high res textures or other "settings?"

If F.E.A.R. was put on console as is, and played in 4k, would that then be 4k, or still not 4k, because it's an old game and doesn't have 4k settings?

[leadeater]

3 hours ago, JZStudios said:

No there aren't. It's a resolution. Resolution does not have any graphics settings of any kind tied to it. Literally none.

There is still a bit of a mix here, most games have now started to separate display resolution and render resolution and not tie any settings at all to either but I know there are games that do even now but especially older ones. I forget the name but there was a semi recently large(er) profile game that did it which I only know about from reviewers having a bitch about it. I'd consider it the exception to the norm though.

 

I think part of the problem is for the longest time you couldn't pick render resolutions, outside of editing ini files that happen to have that settings, so there is a strong association between display/window resolution and render/picture quality in the PC gaming community. This is also encountered in other areas like video, FP having higher bit rates but people just want to talk resolution and don't understand 4k Youtube is actually low quality.

 

Games that only have basic graphics settings or lack explicit settings like texture quality do exist and are a bit of a problem, how often people encounter them is probably tied to the types of games they prefer to play. I have a lot of RTS and TBS games that only have very basic graphics settings.

[TechyBen]

7 hours ago, Derangel said:

Pretty sure there are a few TVs that do true 120hz at 4K now and more will be coming in the next couple years as HDMI 2.1 gets adopted. Since DisplayPort was a nonstarter on TVs they’re stuck with whatever HDMI versions support.

Not sure if it applies here... but back when HD/4K was "new", the 60FPS hd/4k was actually interpolation/backlight flicker. With only 30fps *input*. So it would frame refresh twice or more, the same frame, or use code/cpu power (tiny little one in the TVs) to do a motion blur effect between frames.

 

However, I guess a few might have true 60/120fps with no ghosting/pixel lag too now.

[TechyBen]

3 hours ago, JZStudios said:

No there aren't. It's a resolution. Resolution does not have any graphics settings of any kind tied to it. Literally none.

 

No. The internal resolution isn't 4k. The game is running at x resolution and outputting at scaled 4k.

 

So if I play F.E.A.R. on my PC at 4k, I'm not actually playing it at 4k because I don't have high res textures or other "settings?"

If F.E.A.R. was put on console as is, and played in 4k, would that then be 4k, or still not 4k, because it's an old game and doesn't have 4k settings?

Fear at 4k is fear at 4k. IIRC HL2 can be played at 4k. That's a "4k game" if on PC or on console and running* at 4k.

Snake at 4k is "snake at 4k". No marketing fakery there if running native at 4k with 4k render (either pixel art for that, or vector/3d rendered polys).

 

What you are mixing, is art budget and art quality. IIRC there was a similar thread about the remasters, and if poly count or HD resolution textures were "higher quality"... I forget how that thread went... but it was similar, that someone was arguing "but it's *not* better", because even though both texture and poly were improved, or new art added, it was not photorealistic to today's (or their) standard. Their opinion on "better" was being mixed up with the factual "improved".

 

You seem to be making the same error. If the game is 4k, and truly is, it may still not look "better". Your opinion on quality can be correct, while the game is *also* 4K. Just because it may look worse/the same, does not mean it's not 4k, and does not mean you are wrong to say it *looks* the same as lower resolutions.

 

 

*As supposed to upscaled

[TechyBen]

6 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

That makes absolutely 0 sense. While 4k is a resolution there are graphics settings that are tied to it and to not take that into account when comparing 4k on pc vs 4k on console is simply ridiculous. At that point you would say that upscaling is running a game in 4k because it is still technically outputting at 4k right? When you select to run something at 4k there are certainly textures and settings that were created for that 4k resolution and those settings on pc are different on console so yeah 4k on pc is different. 

Not really. You can have a classic game with low res textures running at true 4k. HL2 for instance. 

 

[pumas]

18 hours ago, Donut417 said:

This is scarlet. Scarlet is just the project name not the product name. 

I actually had no idea

[Brooksie359]

10 hours ago, JZStudios said:

No there aren't. It's a resolution. Resolution does not have any graphics settings of any kind tied to it. Literally none.

 

No. The internal resolution isn't 4k. The game is running at x resolution and outputting at scaled 4k.

 

So if I play F.E.A.R. on my PC at 4k, I'm not actually playing it at 4k because I don't have high res textures or other "settings?"

If F.E.A.R. was put on console as is, and played in 4k, would that then be 4k, or still not 4k, because it's an old game and doesn't have 4k settings?

There is such thing as 4k textures so you are absolutely wrong. 4k on pc and 4k on console are different and there is nothing you can say that will change that. 

[Brooksie359]

6 hours ago, TechyBen said:

Not really. You can have a classic game with low res textures running at true 4k. HL2 for instance. 

 

I never said you can't do that I am saying that the 4k you get from console and the 4k you get from pc are different and to say they are equivalent is a lie. 

[TechyBen]

2 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

I never said you can't do that I am saying that the 4k you get from console and the 4k you get from pc are different and to say they are equivalent is a lie. 

How? I gave an example. Give one example of how they are different.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-every-native-4k-ps4-pro-game-tested

For example, Thumper is said to be true 4k 60fps (not upscaled).

 

How are you contesting 4K Thumper on PS4 is any different to 4K thumper on PC?

 

Quote

There is such thing as 4k textures so you are absolutely wrong. 

No. "4K textures" are marketing speak, and not real. They are "high res textures", and renamed to sell more games.

[Zando_]

7 hours ago, TechyBen said:

Not really. You can have a classic game with low res textures running at true 4k. HL2 for instance.

Yos. Should try running HL2 at that sometime, I do have the game.

18 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

There is such thing as 4k textures so you are absolutely wrong. 4k on pc and 4k on console are different and there is nothing you can say that will change that. 

Really? So if I play Battlefront II 2005 at 4K (which I have done for fun) I'm not actually playing it at 4K? It doesn't have 4K textures but it is rendering at 4K, 3840x2160p. 
 

[dalekphalm]

41 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

There is such thing as 4k textures so you are absolutely wrong. 4k on pc and 4k on console are different and there is nothing you can say that will change that. 

Textures are not render resolution. Those are different things. Hell, you can use 4K textures on a game rendered at 1080p if you wanted.

 

Nobody is saying the graphics on a game running on a high end PC are the same as the graphics running on a Pro Console - but those are not resolutions.

 

4K is 4K is 4K. Either the game renders output at that resolution or it doesn't. What textures are used are irrelevant to the discussion, because textures are not render resolution. Textures are one of many graphical fidelity settings.

 

Aside from that, many PC games of old ran perfectly well while being rendered at native 4K output but did not have "4K textures" - those games were still "4K".