Apple and Nvidia, a sad story for Apple users

[Sauron]

6 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

And that translates into money how?!
Apple is a business, why the heck should they waste Money for nonsense that 95% of the Users don't care about and only a couple of peole who didn't read up on the Apple nVidia Situation...

Consumer satisfaction... I realize that's pretty low on Apple's list of priorities though.

8 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

But then again, who of the real mac users really cares about that?!

I know a few people who'd like to use an nvidia card as external gpu - and as I said, machine learning is a thing and it benefits from CUDA, which doesn't suffer as much from a meh driver as games would.

12 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

We are talking about an OS that is more often than not used by people that are not really Hard and Software stuff, they want to use their thing, browse the web, do their stuff and don't care about that.

Apple still uses the "pro" name for a lot of their stuff - if it's not for professionals maybe they should just admit it and call it the Macbook Rich Granny. with touchbar

[Sauron]

57 minutes ago, pinksnowbirdie said:

But there’s crickets for the fact that consoles only use AMD silicon baring the Nintendo switch.

I don't see the connection... you can't use a different gpu on a console, no matter the brand. You can't do gpu computing or machine learning on a console and game settings and framerate are fixed.

 

If you're complaining that consoles can't be upgraded... we've been having that debate for over a decade.

[Curious Pineapple]

Think about your average Apple user, who will they complain to when their supported but after-market nVidia card with Apple written drivers has a problem? All they will see is that a new nVidia product doesn't work properly and they should fix it. If they moan to Apple, well sorry but we didn't fit it so it's your problem to deal with. Have Apple also demanded that Intel divulge the inner workings of the i9 so they can write custom microcode?

[handymanshandle]

42 minutes ago, Sauron said:

I don't see the connection... you can't use a different gpu on a console, no matter the brand. You can't do gpu computing or machine learning on a console and game settings and framerate are fixed.

 

If you're complaining that consoles can't be upgraded... we've been having that debate for over a decade.

No, I was just getting at the aspect that no one complains that Microsoft and Sony went with AMD for silicon

 

[Sauron]

Just now, pinksnowbirdie said:

No, I was just getting at the aspect that no one complains that Microsoft and Sony went with AMD for silicon

 

Because it's not something the user is concerned with. Who made the GPU in a console is completely irrelevant to the consumer and, to a degree, so is who made the gpu inside a mac - but we're talking about external graphics cards, and in that case supporting more than one brand makes sense. I don't care about nVidia making money, they already make more than enough, I care about people who already own an nVidia card or need one for computing but can't use it with their mac.

[Mira Yurizaki]

Just now, pinksnowbirdie said:

No, I was just getting at the aspect that no one complains that Microsoft and Sony went with AMD for silicon

A lot of PC enthusiasts would mock the console anyway regardless of who they went with.

[Bartholomew]

12 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

 

If Nvidia doesn’t want to play ball, they don’t get multi million dollar contracts. You could argue that the consumer is the one being hurt by this, but really it’s Nvidia. Macs have never been focused on graphics. 

Nvidia is free to chose who to play ball with or not; and seemingly have enough other million dollar contracts or means of income (same for apple, just not for amd perhaps, so unlike nvidia amd needs to do whatever apple wants).

 

11 hours ago, GoldenLag said:

AMD likes money, and that makes them easier to work with.

Implying that nvidia doenst like money???

 

Its funny how the red team fans on one side claim nvidia as money hungry evil itself using disproportionate high pricing due to top tier monopoly and the next minute amd is attributed easier to work with because they like money better than nvidia...

 

12 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

 Macs have never been focused on graphics. 

This is hillarious on its own (but admittedly in context of this topic you could say its correct). Just not 3d gfx indeed. But as one of the first graphical os-ui in the early years, dtp popularity followed, factory calibrated screens, 5k, large scale popularity with all sorts of designers etc where and are major factors of macs popularity and succes in business application over time. Graphics have been a key feature and marketing point.

 

11 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

You remember this?

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTEyMTc

 

No, its nVidia sitting on a high horse and going to war with Apple.

I remember that. Grown man, on camera, flipping the bird and shouting f you at some company.  Really very professional behavior, couldnt be personal emotion et all. There couldnt be two sides to the story (like absence of businesscase or incentives for nvidia, not even mentioning having to deal with that kind of behaviour...).

 

War?

 

If apple and nvidia dont want to play by each others rules and seemingly they both have alternative perhaps better business cases to focus on I dont see any "war", its just business. Sure big companies will sometimes frustrate each other or make stingy remarks in public (=free advertisement as everyone wants a "war" headline i guess, public reading can than nicely vent and blame their least favorite party, everybody wins).

 

 

That boohoo story of nvidia and TI devs being frustrated wanting to make stuff while managment above decides that specific path doesnt fit strategy or desired businesscase or simply gets limited budget or priority... coping with that (wether its between devs and brass or between 2 companies) is what differentiates the men from the boys, both with devs and cross company/operation managment.

 

[GoldenLag]

2 minutes ago, Bartholomew said:

Implying that nvidia doenst like money???

no, but AMD has a lethal crave for money. as in they cant not accept the demands. they jumped on the semi-custom market because they have the best resources to do that in the game. 

4 minutes ago, Bartholomew said:

But as one of the first graphical os-ui in the early years, dtp popularity followed, factory calibrated screens, 5k, large scale popularity with all sorts of designers etc where and are major factors of macs popularity and succes in business application over time. Graphics have been a key feature and marketing point.

these things are visuals. not graphical power......... which is what @DrMacintosh is reffering to. 

5 minutes ago, Bartholomew said:

Its funny how the red team fans on one side claim nvidia as money hungry evil itself using disproportionate high pricing due to top tier monopoly and the next minute amd is attributed easier to work with because they like money better than nvidia...

AMD and Nvidia likes money in very different ways. and their situation and market filosofy is miles appart. so yes im in the right for saying these things. 

[GoldenLag]

6 minutes ago, Bartholomew said:

Sure big companies will sometimes frustrate each other or make stingy remarks in public (=free advertisement as everyone wants a "war" headline i guess, public reading can than nicely vent and blame their least favorite party, everybody wins).

 

or you are google and can literally cripple any browser on the market that doesnt use Chromium with the click of a button.............(and they have done that mind you)

 

companies do go to war with eachother. like properly. 

[Mira Yurizaki]

13 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

AMD and Nvidia likes money in very different ways.

I'm pretty sure both like money for the same reason any publicly traded business likes money: make a profit so the investors will be pleased, raise the value of the company's stock, and that puts it all back into your own pocket because you have a non-trivial amount of ownership of stock in the company.

 

Anything else the company does is just a PR game to appease those investors (who think the community's reactions to anything means something)

[Bartholomew]

11 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

or you are google and can literally cripple any browser on the market that doesnt use Chromium with the click of a button.............(and they have done that mind you)

 

companies do go to war with eachother. like properly. 

Agree completely!

 

But that involves direct competition; nvidia doesnt compete with linux or apple, no war there, just no business deal.

 

Apple is a consumer of gpus. They strike deal with amd. Nvidia didnt make it (or doesnt want to), no declaration of war there.

 

 

[Bartholomew]

48 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

 

these things are visuals. not graphical power......... which is what @DrMacintosh is reffering to. 

 

Agreed, did you miss the part where i said in context of thread its correct?  Just stand alone (which it isnt) it just seemed funny thats all.

 

48 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

 

AMD and Nvidia likes money in very different ways. and their situation and market filosofy is miles appart. so yes im in the right for saying these things. 

Someone already posted the more commonly accepted answer to "in what way and why companies love money" above i see (some jibberish like means to exist, profit, shareholder payouts etc...)

 

But it would make for a intersting interview question to big company CEOs though: "In what way does your company like money?"

 

jokes aside, i do get your point in general, high demand and production and/or cashflow issues at same time can be challanging and if thats the case amd is doing a admirable job; hopefully next gen ryzen will boost them either way (and like all of us hope for a decent perf boost at great price with navi!).

[mr moose]

4 hours ago, Bartholomew said:

 

I remember that. Grown man, on camera, flipping the bird and shouting f you at some company.  Really very professional behavior, couldnt be personal emotion et all. There couldnt be two sides to the story (like absence of businesscase or incentives for nvidia, not even mentioning having to deal with that kind of behaviour...).

 

The people who bring that up in these debates don't even know why he flipped the bird or what Nvidia did (or in this case wouldn't do).   This discussion is not even the same issue,  which highlights the flaws in much of the arguments people pose regarding the situation.

 

I dare say there is a lot more information that we don't have. 

 

Mind you as I said at the start of this thread.  It has derailed into a brand war. Because very few people who are arguing here so staunchly are doing so for legitimate open minded reasons.

[thinwalrus]

If Apple is allowed to do this, what prevents AMD and Intel from coming up with a new standard connection for gpus? I mean if Apple can tell what parts people can use with their products, why couldnt amd and intel do the same? Are they just so nice that let nVidia roam and dominate on their platforms?

[Tosa]

Are Apple blocking Nvidia drivers completely, or are they just blocking CUDA? Because keeping CUDA out of their ecosystem makes a lot of sense. If software start depending on CUDA to function, then Apple has a problem when they're releasing computers with AMD or Intel GPUs in them.

I mean, look at how video encoding works in MacOS: You can choose between Apple software encoder and Apple hardware encoder. You don't get to choose between Nvidia's nvenc, AMD's MFT and Intel's QuickSync.

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, Tosa said:

Are Apple blocking Nvidia drivers completely, or are they just blocking CUDA?

They are blocking Nvidia completely.  No one knows the actual reason, all we have is some of the usual "anonymous" reports.

 

https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/01/18/apples-management-doesnt-want-nvidia-support-in-macos-and-thats-a-bad-sign-for-the-mac-pro

 

Regardless the reason, it's not fair on the customers who have spent up big on nvidia hardware for their mac only to be sold short in the end.

[Stefan Payne]

5 hours ago, Bartholomew said:

Nvidia is free to chose who to play ball with or not;

And so is apple.

They chose not to allow nVidia onto their Plattform.

And we have a pretty good guess why:
nVidia was pushing their proprietary garbage again, onto the Apple Plattform.

Apple might have warned them a couple of times to not do that and play by THEIR Rules, nVidia didn't, so they kicked them out.

 

That is one Part, the other Part is the Drivers that nVidia don't allow anyone to take a look at.

Might want to guess why...

Because then people see what they do in their Drivers and that their Hardware might not be that great as people claim.

 

In the German Forum 3DCenter there was a developer pretty angry with nVidia, after sending them his code because after doing so some objects seem to have vanished. (and he looked into it a bit more because he thought it was a Problem on his end....

 

Quote

Implying that nvidia doenst like money???

Correct.

They don't like money, they want to push their Ecosystem, their Proprietary shit onto other people.

You know that the Chinese once made a Supercomputer?? 
And that then there were some differences and nVidia didn't want to apply by their rules, so they switched to IIRC Intel GPUs.

 

You know:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianhe-2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianhe-1

 

IIRC at the time they also talked about Driver Differences between the Chinese and nVidia.

Thus they switched to Intel with the second Iteration.

 

Quote

I remember that. Grown man, on camera, flipping the bird and shouting f you at some company.  Really very professional behavior, couldnt be personal emotion et all. There couldnt be two sides to the story (like absence of businesscase or incentives for nvidia, not even mentioning having to deal with that kind of behaviour...).

Yes, there is a backstory.

At the time, Linus threw out all Proprietary Code of the Kernel and demanded that all Kernel Components, including the GPU Driver stack, had to be Open Source.

 

We all know what nVidia did, so they told people openly, what he thought about their arrogance.

 

And up until this day, the nVidia Driver, violates Kernel Guidelines and because of that, cause Problems with Wayland for example.

 

But why don't you talk about THAT?! Why Attack the people criticizng nVidia for their Behaviour??

 

[Stefan Payne]

3 hours ago, Tosa said:

Are Apple blocking Nvidia drivers completely, or are they just blocking CUDA?

Probably both because it might be hard to do either one of them.

But you might have a good point that many people here overlooked.

CUDA might actually be one of the reasons they don't alow nVidia on their plattform.

3 hours ago, Tosa said:

Because keeping CUDA out of their ecosystem makes a lot of sense. If software start depending on CUDA to function, then Apple has a problem when they're releasing computers with AMD or Intel GPUs in them.

...wich might have been the Plan of nVidia all along, to force their Proprietary Shit onto the Apple Ecosystem, wich then in Turn forces Apple to switch from AMD/Intel onto nVIdia GPUs again.

...wich failed miserably as Apple rather forced them out of their Ecosystem instead.

The Driver might be another point as well as there is no AMD/Intel Driver, that is supplied with the OS.

3 hours ago, Tosa said:

I mean, look at how video encoding works in MacOS: You can choose between Apple software encoder and Apple hardware encoder. You don't get to choose between Nvidia's nvenc, AMD's MFT and Intel's QuickSync.

That is another good point from your side!

[Trik'Stari]

I absolutely hate Apple. Their hardware is fragile, poorly engineered junk, their service is a company is equally bad and has been for a long time. They are a flat-out anti-consumer corporation with deceitful business practices and anti-competitive business practices. How the FTC has let them get as big as they have, is beyond me.

 

I wish AMD would actually try and put Nvidia down a notch so we would benefit as consumers.

[Drak3]

3 hours ago, thinwalrus said:

what prevents AMD and Intel from coming up with a new standard connection for gpus?

Nothing.

 

3 hours ago, Tosa said:

mean, look at how video encoding works in MacOS: You can choose between Apple software encoder and Apple hardware encoder. You don't get to choose between Nvidia's nvenc, AMD's MFT and Intel's QuickSync.

Apple's "Hardware encoder" is Intel QuickSync.

[Guest]

All Nvidia GPUs that come with a Mac should still be supported, but Apple can’t help the consumer if Nvidia won’t play ball. It’s not anti-consumer on Apple’s part at all.

 

Nvidia GPUs that work as an eGPU, should still work providing they have the “Mac Version”, or whatever nonsense it was called. 

[Bartholomew]

 

15 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

And so is apple.

 

Whats the point here; as thats what i also said, litteraly in that same paragraph ("Same for apple") :

21 hours ago, Bartholomew said:

Nvidia is free to chose who to play ball with or not; and seemingly have enough other million dollar contracts or means of income (same for apple, just not for amd perhaps, so unlike nvidia amd needs to do whatever apple wants).

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

 

nVidia was pushing their proprietary garbage again, onto the Apple Plattform.



Thankfully apples platform isnt proprietary... proprietary is just garbage when its from nvidia so i understand things right? 

 

15 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

 

That is one Part, the other Part is the Drivers that nVidia don't allow anyone to take a look at.

Might want to guess why...

Because then people see what they do in their Drivers and that their Hardware might not be that great as people claim.

 

Thats called protection of IP; thats why theres copyright laws and "no decompile" clauses in eulas and NDA agreements in business. Guessing anyone can do (because guessing reuireslittle skill or factual information as input). But if you insist; my guess would be protection of IP, thay are (currently at least) in the lead in the top tier of performance, and we indeed can only "guess" what part of that lies in soft and/or hardware optimisations, and even if in hw, revelealing intimate driver details could reveal hw "secrets". Far fetched? Owyes... but since where just guessing...

 

 

16 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

In the German Forum 3DCenter there was a developer pretty angry with nVidia

 

Conclusive! A person on a forum was angry with a company? In public on the internet? Must be one evil company, that hardly ever happens.

 

16 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

You know that the Chinese once made a Supercomputer?? 
And that then there were some differences and nVidia didn't want to apply by their rules, so they switched to IIRC Intel GPUs.

Thus they switched to Intel with the second Iteration.

 

1. Nope, but i suspect they made more than one, perhaps not letting everyone know?

2. Good for them!

 

Sound like average business, most of the time if not agreeing with each others requirements or demands it better not to strike a deal.

 

16 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

 

Why Attack the people criticizng nVidia for their Behaviour??

 

Attack? Wait, where? I commented on statements, general discussing.

I suppose if attacking one would use phrasing using "you", or using allcaps words with exclamation marks etc...

 

 

 

 

 

[Celexi]

Apple is shooting themselves in the foot on this one. First, nVidia cards are faster for gaming and professional 3D rendering. That means a lot to MANY people, not just the scientific community. And for the high end rendering professionals and the scientific community, the lack of nVidia support will kill the new Mac Pro because no one will buy it except for people using Final Cut Pro. The problem here is 100% on Apple's side; nVidia has the drivers ready to go, submitted them to Apple for approval just like every other hardware vendor, and Apple refuses to approve them. Why? Supposedly because of some snit that happened YEARS ago, Apple execs have decided that nVidia support will not be allowed. Thereby doing the wrong thing for the wrong reasons.

[mr moose]

On 4/11/2019 at 3:02 AM, Bartholomew said:

Thankfully apples platform isnt proprietary... proprietary is just garbage when its from nvidia so i understand things right? 

 

Clearly you missed the MEMO, it's only bad to be proprietary if you are NVIDIA, it's fine for Apple to be proprietary and choose who when they screw customers over.

 

When we only look at the facts and the effects there really isn't much left to discuss.  So people trying desperately to make it sound like things are happening that are not, are clearly just upset because their favorite company (or company to hate) is involved.

 

 

 

 

[Gmoneyinthebank]

On 4/9/2019 at 2:49 AM, thorpyworpy said:

Just wondering what everyone's thoughts are on Apple allegedly blocking Nvidia drivers from working on MacOS Mojave? It's very well discussed online at this point with Nvidia reporting and I summarise in my own words, that Apple isn't allowing Nvidia to write drivers that will allow CUDA to work with MacOS Mojave. Thus, preventing any relevant Nvidia GPU working in MacOS. I've got a MacBook Pro 2018 and a GTX 1080 Ti and whilst I only game on Windows, it would be nice to leverage the GPU on MacOS too so I don't have to always switch to Windows via BootCamp. The fact is that eGPU integration works amazingly when it's "allowed" to work on MacOS vs Windows. I hope that LMG makes a video on this at some point to help bring light to the issue and put pressure on Apple to allow the drivers to work on MacOS, if it's Apple's fault at all. We can't assume Nvidia is the righteous one here, they're just as bad as each other.

But did you try taking it to the Genius Bar to fix this?