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Radeon VII neck and neck with RTX 2080 in rumored 3DMark leak

exetras
By exetras
in Tech News
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Posted
8 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

Sure but BFV is a pretty janky RTX implementation by all accounts so how good a DX12 implementation those games where is less relevant than weather it was DX12 supporting for a comparison point. Everytime i hear people go on about how ray tracing will never take off i want to strangle a kitten it's so frustrating.

Like I've said in other topics, BFV is dead to me and I don't care about it, on a technical basis.

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Posted
8 minutes ago, Lathlaer said:

From what I can remember, NVIDIA said that for big budget AAA titles the devs provide it to them anyway (for driver optimization, hairworks and whatnot) so it will be just another thing they can add.

 

 

Oh sure but the game also has to tell what they produce from that to run. if the game engine dosen;t tell the card to run it, then it won't because the card doesn't know what it's doing.

 

8 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Like I've said in other topics, BFV is dead to me and I don't care about it, on a technical basis.

 

Oh sure the point is those DX12 titles not being proper DX12 si no different than BFV not being proper RT so you can't really use that as an argument for or against the RTX vs DXX12 uptake.

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25 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

DLSS relies on running a training algorithm on a big powerful supercomputer. They need a set of reference images to work from to train it on. if developers won't provide that they can't do it.

I'm pretty sure what they meant in their whitepaper was they trained the AI on a set of reference images that were not related to the game to train the AI. It doesn't make sense to require the AI to train on images from the game to make the game look better. People who've used neural networks to enhance 2D images certainly didn't start from a higher resolution version of that image. I don't see how this can't apply to 3D renders, especially since the DLSS is likely working on the final output... which is a 2D image.

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Posted
12 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

Oh sure the point is those DX12 titles not being proper DX12 si no different than BFV not being proper RT so you can't really use that as an argument for or against the RTX vs DXX12 uptake.

But that is what I was saying? ?

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8 minutes ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

I'm pretty sure what they meant in their whitepaper was they trained the AI on a set of reference images that were not related to the game to train the AI. It doesn't make sense to require the AI to train on images from the game to make the game look better. People who've used neural networks to enhance 2D images certainly didn't start from a higher resolution version of that image. I don't see how this can't apply to 3D renders, especially since the DLSS is likely working on the final output... which is a 2D image.

The release information and white papers on DLSS state they use 64x super sample images of the game for the reference (ground truth) images. There's also two modes of DLSS, 4K equivalent and true 4K + DLSS for higher than 4K image quality.

 

Quote

NVIDIA’s DLSS system runs super-sampling on one specific game, over and over again, on the graphics cards in its massive data centers. It computes the best ways to apply the super-sampling technique to a game with repetitive processing on that game’s visuals—the polygons and textures that make up what you see on your screen. The “deep learning” part of the process comes into play here; the system learns as much as it possibly can about the way that the game looks, and how to make it look better.

 https://www.howtogeek.com/401624/what-is-nvidia-dlss-and-how-will-it-make-ray-tracing-faster/

 

It's currently game specific.

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Posted
10 minutes ago, leadeater said:

The release information and white papers on DLSS state they use 64x super sample images of the game for the reference (ground truth) images. There's also two modes of DLSS, 4K equivalent and true 4K + DLSS for higher than 4K image quality.

 

https://www.howtogeek.com/401624/what-is-nvidia-dlss-and-how-will-it-make-ray-tracing-faster/

 

It's currently game specific.

So does Nvidia really think DLSS is viable? As they would need to train for hundreds of games daily. 

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Just keeping this here as a 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5 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

So does Nvidia really think DLSS is viable? As they would need to train for hundreds of games daily. 

I dunno, it's Nvidia.

 

Nvidia: "Fuck it, I'll do what I want"

 

At least it's not hard or a burden on game developers and can be added later post release. All you have to do is implement the feature/option which is part of GameWorks anyway and send Nvidia a copy of the game, seems hassle free to me. Is it actually long term viable? As long as Nvidia is happy to do it sure, seems daft to me in the long run though.

 

Personally I'd like to see something where training is automatically run during loading screens where the GPUs are doing nothing, then any game can be trained and the more people that play the game the faster that happens and can be retrained/improved forever.

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1 minute ago, leadeater said:

I dunno, it's Nvidia.

 

Nvidia: "Fuck it, I'll do what I want"

 

At least it's not hard or a burden on game developers and can be added later post release. All you have to do is implement the feature/option which is part of GameWorks anyway and send Nvidia a copy of the game, seems hassle free to me. Is it actually long term viable? As long as Nvidia is happy to do it sure, seems daft to me in the long run though.

 

Personally I'd like to see something where training is automatically run during loading screens where the GPUs are doing nothing, then any game can be trained and the more people that play the game the faster that happens and can be retrained/improved.

Yeah maybe Nvidia is planning on using the tensorcores in the future to do training on the fly maybe. Except that's not really how it works. But I'd imagine it consumes a lot of power to train for DLSS and the return is saying it's a feature. 

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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3 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

Yeah maybe Nvidia is planning on using the tensorcores in the future to do training on the fly maybe. Except that's not really how it works. But I'd imagine it consumes a lot of power to train for DLSS and the return is saying it's a feature. 

The training results would still have to be submitted back to a central point, otherwise there's no way to tell which is the best. I don't mean each person trains their own game, because that's far to slow, I mean a distributed training model rather than a centralized one.

 

Edit:

Reason being, Nvidia is only using a few thousand GPUs for the DLSS training cluster. For a game like BFV or similar AAA title you'd be leveraging a lot more than just a few thousand.

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10 minutes ago, leadeater said:

The training results would still have to be submitted back to a central point, otherwise there's no way to tell which is the best. I don't mean each person trains their own game, because that's far to slow, I mean a distributed training model rather than a centralized one.

 

Edit:

Reason being, Nvidia is only using a few thousand GPUs for the DLSS training cluster. For a game like BFV or similar AAA title you'd be leveraging a lot more than just a few thousand.

A few thousand GPUs is still insane for an Nvidia only ingame feature that is specific to a couple games. 

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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6 hours ago, Tristerin said:

Someone pointed that out to me on Page 2 or 3 I had forgotten that bit...makes sense and how they cannot remove that 8gb or it cuts the bandwidth down that allows it to currently perform near 2080 performance or at, to keep the card well under the 2080 price tag. 

 

After discussing this and remembering they said they were only doing a limited run - I like the direction the Company AMD is going but more of me is thinking this card wont go down in price at all just based off things they have said (that I had forgotten)

Yeah I think AMD are experimenting a little with their graphics side. I think it's safe to say Radeon VII isn't the best AMD has to offer. I think whatever Navi turns out to be will be there true flagship lineup for them.

11 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

A few thousand GPUs is still insane for an Nvidia only ingame feature that is specific to a couple games. 

A for a feature that most gamers will just turn off in titles like Battlefield V. Until it no longer* causes a significant drop in performance it just won't be supported or popular in story driven titles. It'll be a no go in any competitive title.

 

*If it ever does, it will for a long time still cause a performance hit.

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1 minute ago, ZacoAttaco said:

A for a feature that most gamers will just turn off in titles like Battlefield V. Until it no longer* causes a significant drop in performance it just won't be supported or popular in story driven titles. It'll be a no go in any competitive title.

 

*/

That more applies to RTX not DLSS, though there are reasons to not like DLSS as well. The current implementations like in FF15 that are the 4K equivalent have visual quirks some may not like, TAA does too though.

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50 minutes ago, leadeater said:

The release information and white papers on DLSS state they use 64x super sample images of the game for the reference (ground truth) images. There's also two modes of DLSS, 4K equivalent and true 4K + DLSS for higher than 4K image quality.

 

https://www.howtogeek.com/401624/what-is-nvidia-dlss-and-how-will-it-make-ray-tracing-faster/

 

It's currently game specific.

The white paper says this though:

Quote

The key to this result is the training process for DLSS, where it gets the opportunity to learn how to produce the desired output based on large numbers of super-high-quality examples. To train the network, we collect thousands of “ground truth” reference images rendered with the gold standard method for perfect image quality, 64x supersampling (64xSS). 64x supersampling means that instead of shading each pixel once, we shade at 64 different offsets within the pixel, and then combine the outputs, producing a resulting image with ideal detail and anti-aliasing quality. We also capture matching raw input images rendered normally. Next, we start training the DLSS network to match the 64xSS output frames, by going through each input, asking DLSS to produce an output, measuring the difference between its output and the 64xSS target, and adjusting the weights in the network based on the differences, through a process called back propagation. After many iterations, DLSS learns on its own to produce results that closely approximate the quality of 64xSS, while also learning to avoid the problems with blurring, disocclusion, and transparency that affect classical approaches like TAA.

The section in its entirety says nothing explicit about needing reference images from a game itself.

 

Because how do you get results like this (from https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/99021-v-0-95-doom-neural-upscale-2x/?

pngyor2fowvxtcywgym9.png

 

Or this (from https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/46221?tab=description?

morrowind-ai-enhanced-1.jpg

 

Or this

 

When the AI doesn't even have a reference point to begin with other than a low resolution image?

 

Aside from that, you're also telling me that NVIDIA has a datacenter sitting around somewhere for crunching DLSS reference images on request? If you want any reason why RTX is expensive, there's your answer. That datacenter ain't paying for itself.

 

I mean, if this is how they're doing it, then okay, it's dumb as hell.

I have a blog! And a list of guides I've posted

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3 hours ago, Mihle said:

Well, at the time where and was more perf compared to cost in the GPU segment with a good margin, more people still bought Nvidia than AMD because mindshare.

CPU is another matter tho....

I was talking about the overall reasons AMD were on the cusp of bankruptcy, the GPU part is certainly true from the 290 and on.  Basically we are now at 3 generations of GPU from Nvidia and this new vega is the closest AMD have come to competing.  Remember back when  GCN was new and AMD/Nvidia traded blows? AMD was having a lot of financial trouble then.

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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5 minutes ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

 

Aside from that, you're also telling me that NVIDIA has a datacenter sitting around somewhere for crunching DLSS reference images on request? If you want any reason why RTX is expensive, there's your answer. That datacenter ain't paying for itself.

Talking to some industry connections at my college who worked and work at Nvidia yes they actually do have their own high performance computers being used for various things

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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Posted
10 minutes ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

The section in its entirety says nothing explicit about needing reference images from a game itself.

It doesn't say it but those images are from the game sourced from 64x SS images. Like every example Nvidia shows is of specific games too, side by side. They also explicitly say the game must be submitted to them for DLSS training.

 

It's not a case of can there be an AI that is trained and can be applied to any game, Nvidia DLSS is currently game specific.

 

Old games are so much simpler too because in those examples they have upscaled the textures so it's not realtime unlike DLSS nor does it need to be as detailed and accurate. You could literally just run those older games at 64x SS and forgo the AI part all together.

 

Quote

Using AI NeuralNetworks (A lot of Nividia's texture tools : super resolution and a little bit of Topaz's AI gigaPixel), all textures and sprites have been upscaled 8x (with tons of AI artefacts), then downscaled to a final 2X to restore a pixel art look.
A lot of textures have been manually cleaned of AI artefacts and all transparency masks have to be manually enhanced (because AI don't know what to do with binary Black&White yet).

https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/99021-v-0-95-doom-neural-upscale-2x/

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1 minute ago, leadeater said:

It doesn't say it but those images are from the game sourced from 64x SS images. Like every example Nvidia shows is of specific games too, side by side. They also explicitly say the game must be submitted to them for DLSS training.

 

It's not a case of can there be an AI that is trained and can be applied to any game, Nvidia DLSS is currently game specific.

 

Old games are so much simpler too because in those examples they have upscaled the texture so it's not realtime unlike DLSS nor does it need to be as detailed and accurate. You could literally just run those older games at 64x SS and forgo the AI part all together.

you think they are just waiting for one giant driver release on dlss?

 

and does anything use mesh shaders yet?

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1 minute ago, leadeater said:

Old games are so much simpler too because in those examples they have upscaled the texture so it's not realtime unlike DLSS nor does it need to be as detailed and accurate. You could literally just run those older games at 64x SS and forgo the AI part all together.

The point is that these AI can upscale them to a satisfactory level without knowing what the upscaled image is supposed to look like, making them suitable for generic use. The only question is how long did it take the AI to spit out the image.

I have a blog! And a list of guides I've posted

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14 minutes ago, leadeater said:

That more applies to RTX not DLSS, though there are reasons to not like DLSS as well. The current implementations like in FF15 that are the 4K equivalent have visual quirks some may not like, TAA does too though.

My mistake, I thought we were only discussing RTX. DLSS doesn't really cause the same performance degradation to my understanding but I'm certainly no expert.

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6 minutes ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

The point is that these AI can upscale them to a satisfactory level without knowing what the upscaled image is supposed to look like, making them suitable for generic use. The only question is how long did it take the AI to spit out the image.

For a modern game, with modern detail, far to long without a ton of error that even these super simple low quality ones have that also required manual fixing post upscaling.

 

Edit:

Plus we're talking about full screen/image enhancement not enhancing a set of texture files that then get used in the game. You have to do that 60+ times a second, perfectly or with as little errors as possible with zero potential for manual fixes.

 

It's like saying you can juggle when you can only do one single cycle.

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1 hour ago, BuckGup said:

So does Nvidia really think DLSS is viable? As they would need to train for hundreds of games daily. 

 

The thing to remember is that their doing it this way because individual games have subtle differences, a trained AI could theoretically handle all games equally. But it would need to be trained on a lot of games to a high degree on each. NVIDIA simply dosen;t have the required processing power or reference materials to do that all in one go. But eventually they should be able to combine the results from a lot of games done this way to come up with a good result.

 

50 minutes ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

The white paper says this though:

The section in its entirety says nothing explicit about needing reference images from a game itself.

 

Because how do you get results like this (from https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/99021-v-0-95-doom-neural-upscale-2x/?

pngyor2fowvxtcywgym9.png

 

Or this (from https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/46221?tab=description?

morrowind-ai-enhanced-1.jpg

 

Or this

 

When the AI doesn't even have a reference point to begin with other than a low resolution image?

 

Aside from that, you're also telling me that NVIDIA has a datacenter sitting around somewhere for crunching DLSS reference images on request? If you want any reason why RTX is expensive, there's your answer. That datacenter ain't paying for itself.

 

I mean, if this is how they're doing it, then okay, it's dumb as hell.

 

Um they explicitly state right at the start they need a 64x supersampled image to compare against. thats the ingame reference their talking about right there, (the fact that it needs to be done at 64x supersampling is probably also why it needs specialised support from the devs to acquire). It's also worth emphasizing that they're using a network which undoubtedly refers to a neural network. Which means what they're doing is getting the AI to analyse various properties of the image, then based on that and the weightings in the network chose a technique to apply to the image, (or more likely a pixel therin), and then when it's completed the image they compare the result to the reference. AI weightings that produce results furthest from the desired are culled and and the rest are mutated and/or interpolated and they repeat until they get an AI that across all their reference content produces an adequate close image at an adequate performance level.

 

Then they ship that AI and tell it to run on that game when DLSS is enabled.

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54 minutes ago, ZacoAttaco said:

My mistake, I thought we were only discussing RTX. DLSS doesn't really cause the same performance degradation to my understanding but I'm certainly no expert.

 

DLSS is actually faster than normal AA.

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5 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

 

DLSS is actually faster than normal AA.

Well if you don't account for the hundreds of hours taken to train the models

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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1 minute ago, BuckGup said:

Well if you don't account for the hundreds of hours taken to train the models

 

Um what does that have to do with to frames per second and frame time performance?

 

Thats like saying a game that has received an optimisation patch that improved frames per second and frame times isn't actually faster than it was pre patch because the patch took thousands, (probably 10's or 100's of thousands for most games), of man hours to develop, test, and get shiped...

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Just now, CarlBar said:

The thing to remember is that their doing it this way because individual games have subtle differences, a trained AI could theoretically handle all games equally. But it would need to be trained on a lot of games to a high degree on each. NVIDIA simply dosen;t have the required processing power or reference materials to do that all in one go. But eventually they should be able to combine the results from a lot of games done this way to come up with a good result.

NVIDIA could've asked a lot of publishers beforehand to send in some representative samples.

 

Just now, CarlBar said:

Um they explicitly state right at the start they need a 64x supersampled image to compare against. thats the ingame reference their talking about right there, (the fact that it needs to be done at 64x supersampling is probably also why it needs specialised support from the devs to acquire).

I'm not talking about DLSS though. I'm talking about the AI that these people used to upscale 2D images without a reference point... because there is no reference point available. And while it was pointed out the Doom one needed cleanup, the Morrowind one made no mention of this.

 

Also people I'm aware how a neural AI works. What threw me off is that NVIDIA seemed to advertise DLSS as something packaged and ready to go, rather than an entire system with a process to it.

I have a blog! And a list of guides I've posted

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