5000 Dollar Apple arcade machine - E-sport oriented Mac rumored for 2020 release

[Bombastinator]

1 minute ago, valdyrgramr said:

I'd still prefer more credible sources like OC3D, GN, and others who don't have a GPU/CPU boss for credibility reasons.

I would agree that as a sole source it has problems.  If you want compliation metrics it’s not a great place to go.

[kpluck]

On 12/28/2019 at 10:44 AM, Bombastinator said:

5k is way too much.  It needs to be 3k tops.  2k is more in ballpark.

 

Quote

with a unit price of up to $ 5,000

 

$5K is quoted as the top end. If you look at their current iMac prices, it is easy to more than double the price of the base configuration of a 27" model. That could let Apple esport hardware start at under $2K with a a $5K top end. In any event, it is not happening. I wouldn't worry about it.

 

-kp

[Bombastinator]

26 minutes ago, kpluck said:

 

 

$5K is quoted as the top end. If you look at their current iMac prices, it is easy to more than double the price of the base configuration of a 27" model. That could let Apple esport hardware start at under $2K with a a $5K top end. In any event, it is not happening. I wouldn't worry about it.

 

-kp

Yeah it’s becoming clear that it’s crap.  Sort of saddens me.  I want to get rid of windows in the worst way.  A real Mac would be beautiful.  Unfortunately they don’t make one.  Just undercooled  laptops in AIO dressage

[saltycaramel]

While I believe this rumor to be fake, just as a thought experiment I’d say they just need to bring the amazing silent iMac Pro cooling system to non-Xeon non-ECC non-ProGPU non-1TB_ssd_default regular iMacs...that would also coincide with the death of spinning HDDs in Macs, ‘cause the iMacs are the last ones and the iMac Pro cooling system requires getting rid of the HDD for internal space.

 

Another field where apple could bring something to the table is the willingness of going really custom in terms of the display, as mentioned by Linus in WAN. 

 

Throw in a 5500XT base, 5700XT mid and yet unreleased Navi12 “5900XT” as top option and you got yourself a silent gaming AIO...

 

But, why. The rumor literally makes no sense, especially when it mentions a gaming laptop of all things.

 

Additionally, one can already build something like that with a MacMini (i7-8700B 6-core 3.2GHz 65W + 64GB ram + 2TB ssd) + Razer Core X (best if modded for quietness) + big thick 3 slot 5700XT... (and possibly a “5900XT“ in the coming months)

[Commodus]

On 12/30/2019 at 9:50 PM, Bombastinator said:

Yeah it’s becoming clear that it’s crap.  Sort of saddens me.  I want to get rid of windows in the worst way.  A real Mac would be beautiful.  Unfortunately they don’t make one.  Just undercooled  laptops in AIO dressage

iMacs use desktop processors (the GPUs strike me as something in between).  Now, cooling is another matter, but if the iMac Pro and 16-inch MacBook Pro are any indication, the next iMac could be more to your liking.

[saltycaramel]

Another possible angle (if we discard the “laptop or AIO” part of the rumor): Apple may finally release the “xMac” some people on forums have been begging for as long as I can remember in the last 10-15 years.
 

The “xMac” being a mid sized headless desktop pc, the missing link between the MacMini and the MacPro. 

 

One big fan in the front, room for a single MPX module or two 16x slots. And a handle of course. 

 

Since the “xMac” crowd (people not served enough by a MacMini but not willing to go iMac and not able to justify a MacPro) by itself could be pretty niche, also marketing it as a gaming thing could be a way to broaden the appeal of such a machine and ultimately justify bringing it to market (while also pleasing the forum crowds asking for it that couldn’t give two craps about gaming).

[saltycaramel]

Another factor to throw in the mix: once, some (few?) years from now, we’ll have Macs with pcie 4.0 + thunderbolt4 (?), the need of having internal GPUs will make much less sense...so, again, a MacMini with 65W desktop CPU + a thunderbolt4 eGPU could be all the gaming Mac one may need...

 

I suppose Thunderbolt4 (which, to be clear, has not even been rumored yet, zero indication) with its fat pipe would also reduce the performance hit in the GPU-on-a-stick scenario (GPU not connected to the monitor, just hanging off the Mac), so even an iMac could achieve a competent gaming status with an eGPU...

[Bombastinator]

57 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

While I believe this rumor to be fake, just as a thought experiment I’d say they just need to bring the amazing silent iMac Pro cooling system to non-Xeon non-ECC non-ProGPU non-1TB_ssd_default regular iMacs...that would also coincide with the death of spinning HDDs in Macs, ‘cause the iMacs are the last ones and the iMac Pro cooling system requires getting rid of the HDD for internal space.

 

Another field where apple could bring something to the table is the willingness of going really custom in terms of the display, as mentioned by Linus in WAN. 

 

Throw in a 5500XT base, 5700XT mid and yet unreleased Navi12 “5900XT” as top option and you got yourself a silent gaming AIO...

 

But, why. The rumor literally makes no sense, especially when it mentions a gaming laptop of all things.

 

Additionally, one can already build something like that with a MacMini (i7-8700B 6-core 3.2GHz 65W + 64GB ram + 2TB ssd) + Razer Core X (best if modded for quietness) + big thick 3 slot 5700XT... (and possibly a “5900XT“ in the coming months)

It sort of does in that aside from the Mac Pro and the Mac mini, laptops are sort of that all Apple makes.  Their AIO machines are basically laptops hardware wise.  A “gaming laptop” would just be a laptop optimized for gaming with a fast panel, better cpu cooling, and higher end GPUs.  They’d still have to spend a lot and give away the machines to esports athletes to get them to use them.  Maybe even pay them to use them on top of it.  There aren’t a lot of competitive pro level esports players though.  A couple thousand machines at the outside.  Within apples budget.

[Bombastinator]

40 minutes ago, Commodus said:

iMacs use desktop processors (the GPUs strike me as something in between).  Now, cooling is another matter, but if the iMac Pro and 16-inch MacBook Pro are any indication, the next iMac could be more to your liking.

I quit buying MacBooks because they refused to make one with a gpu capable of gaming.  The most they would put in one was a mid range card that would barely play games at all. These days I have no use for a laptop at all though.

[GoldenLag]

Is it just me who is expecting a "switch-esque" or PS vita like device?

 

Because that would honestly make a whole lot more sense.....

[saltycaramel]

23 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Their AIO machines are basically laptops hardware wise. 

You mean the 18-core Xeon iMac Pro or the i9-9900K iMac?

That’s some beefy laptops you have.

The only iMac with mobile innards is the low power base 21.5” 1080p one, a relic from 2017 left in the line-up as a non-4K baseline.

 

Nowadays not even the MacMini has mobile innards. (which was a nice surprise in 2018)

[hishnash]

45 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

It sort of does in that aside from the Mac Pro and the Mac mini, laptops are sort of that all Apple makes.  Their AIO machines are basically laptops hardware wise.  A “gaming laptop” would just be a laptop optimized for gaming with a fast panel, better cpu cooling, and higher end GPUs.  They’d still have to spend a lot and give away the machines to esports athletes to get them to use them.  Maybe even pay them to use them on top of it.  There aren’t a lot of competitive pro level esports players though.  A couple thousand machines at the outside.  Within apples budget.

apple would get esports players to use it by paying the devs and getting  the esports games to run better on macos

[Delicious Cake]

And killing off their game as credible esports titles in the process.

 

Accessibility at the grassroots level is the main reason for a sport's popularity. "Esports" is already almost borderline middle-class, given the basic requirements of needing a working computer, electricity and internet just to get started. People can and do play football/soccer in refugee camps, or in bombed out Syrian neighbourhoods between airstrikes, because even litter and shrapnel can be used as alternatives for a ball and goal posts.

 

The saving grace from it just being another polo or lacrosse is that computer games in and of themselves is a universal social staple of modern civilisation and the system requirements for this 'subgenre' is deliberately kept as low as possible as a whole.

[saltycaramel]

As low as a 329$ 10.2” ipad, probably the best complete and portable gaming computer money can buy at that price. 

 

Beauty at every size and gaming at every price...no need to be overly dramatic about “killing one’s game and credibility”..

[Sauron]

On 12/28/2019 at 7:27 PM, williamcll said:

Thoughts: While dubious by the fact I cannot find the source that the article links to but it seems a lot of other Taiwanese tech sites have mentioned it as well. But who would actually play CSGO or PUBG on a mac anyway?

More importantly, who needs a 5000$ machine to play CSGO?

[Bombastinator]

1 hour ago, Delicious Cake said:

And killing off their game as credible esports titles in the process.

 

Accessibility at the grassroots level is the main reason for a sport's popularity. "Esports" is already almost borderline middle-class, given the basic requirements of needing a working computer, electricity and internet just to get started. People can and do play football/soccer in refugee camps, or in bombed out Syrian neighbourhoods between airstrikes, because even litter and shrapnel can be used as alternatives for a ball and goal posts.

 

The saving grace from it just being another polo or lacrosse is that computer games in and of themselves is a universal social staple of modern civilisation and the system requirements for this 'subgenre' is deliberately kept as low as possible as a whole.

Basic Access remains low.  Competition level I’m not so sure about.  There has been implication that a 240fps GPU level refresh rate did provide an advantage even when the visual refresh rate was lower.  Implies high level hardware performance actually does play a part even if it’s not seen on screen.

[Mark Kaine]

On 12/30/2019 at 2:59 PM, valdyrgramr said:

1)  Nobody uses that site anymore after their last update after they started to show a bias.

 

2)  I believe it was like 1 or 2 games in a GN bench where it matched, or got rather close. I could be wrong.   But, the VII is more likely to.

The worst thing about that page is the prices ... A 2080 for £320?? (€375)

 

How, when,  where! 

 

[Bombastinator]

6 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

You mean the 18-core Xeon iMac Pro or the i9-9900K iMac?

That’s some beefy laptops you have.

The only iMac with mobile innards is the low power base 21.5” 1080p one, a relic from 2017 left in the line-up as a non-4K baseline.

 

Nowadays not even the MacMini has mobile innards. (which was a nice surprise in 2018)

Those are CPUs.  I mean they use laptop GPUs and laptop cooling solutions.  They’re big big laptops to be sure.  Of a sort rarely made anymore.  Still laptops though.  The laptop GPUs are the thing that really kills it for me.  CPU increases don’t help me.  I’ve got an old haswell 4/8 that remains sufficient for my purpose for the time being at least so far.  CPU is not the issue.  Big GPUs produce big wattage and need big cooling.  They can’t do big cooling with the laptop systems they got.  They’re putting in big CPUs because they don’t allow overclocking and a big stock xenon still only tosses a bit over 100w of heat.  They need to be able to do double that or more for even one good quality desktop level GPU.

[Mark Kaine]

But a laptop GPU can still be very competitive with the right cooling etc. 

 

Heck PS3 in theory didn't even need a GPU at all,  just throw in a second CELL! 

 

Would have loved seeing that personally.  

 

[saltycaramel]

2 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

Those are CPUs.  I mean they use laptop GPUs and laptop cooling solutions.  They’re big big laptops to be sure.  Of a sort rarely made anymore.  Still laptops though.  The laptop GPUs are the thing that really kills it for me.  CPU increases don’t help me.  I’ve got an old haswell 4/8 that remains sufficient for my purpose for the time being at least so far.  CPU is not the issue.  Big GPUs produce big wattage and need big cooling.  They can’t do big cooling with the laptop systems they got.  They’re putting in big CPUs because they don’t allow overclocking and a big stock xenon still only tosses a bit over 100w of heat.  They need to be able to do double that or more for even one good quality desktop level GPU.

We’ll agree to disagree then.

For sure they’re not expandable like a mid-tower desktop (and that’s why desktop mac aficionados have been begging Apple for ages for a 2k-3k$ “xMac” to be more than a MacMini but less than a MacPro), but at the same time characterizing them as glorified laptops isn’t right either, more plain wrong if the CPUs are desktop parts and they don’t throttle and the machine is quiet, same for the GPUs (you sure a Vega 64X 16GB HBM2 is a mobile part?), if it works it works, sure you only get one (internal) GPU and not 2-3-4, but you should refrain from calling a perfectly working sum of properly cooled desktop parts “basically a laptop”. If we look at the iMac Pro and we imagine that cooling system trickling down to non-Pro iMacs in 2020 (they’re the last Macs left without the T2 chip, a complete back-to-the-drawing-board motherboard revamp is overdue), that statement is very far from the truth. 

 

The whole rumor could actually be about new shiny iMacs and somehow be twisted to be about gaming along the way just because one particular config could be suitable for gaming..

[Bombastinator]

The vega64 is a desktop class card architecture.  If it was running at full clock and producing it’s frightening amounts of wattage it would be a desktop class card. Even the 580x 8gb is a desktop class architecture, technically.  
the issue is what clock and wattage are they being run at?

Even the Vega56 was put in laptops. Last I looked seriously for a Mac the only available GPUs for AIO macs were literally actual laptop GPUs. This does appear to be something of a change, but it doesn’t change the fundamental aspect that they are basically laptop designs.  The ones with big cards are really really expensive because they’re pro cards, though all that means is they have unlocked bits and use different drivers, but ignoring that, look a at pic the internals of the Mac Pro.  It’s a laptop.  The board would fit in one.  It’s designed like one.  A big laptop to be sure, and one that draws a lot of power, but those have been made.  The cooling is minimal, and done in laptop fashion, everything is monolithic, it costs like a similarly equipped laptop.  The only thing keeping it from actually being one is the screen size and form factor.  The major functional difference between a laptop and a desktop is cooling capacity.  A laptop CPU is basically the same CPU as in a desktop.  The GPUs are frequently bit different in that they tend to have little to with the names given to them.  Their architectures are often totally different, but the CPUs are basically the same architecture.  It is just designed for a lower cooling envelope.  If the AIO macs were capable of desktop cooling, rather than desktop replacement laptop cooling things would be different.  It really wouldn’t take much.  If the cooling fin/fan stack on an iMAC pro were say randomly twice the size it is, which would require only slight changes to thickness, it would be able to do what a similarly equipped desktop could do.  And do it with a better OS.  Why do people like the 16” MacBook better?  It’s got better cooling.  A better keyboard too, but it’s not desperately cooling starved.

This graphite sheet cooling thing (which I kinda doubt will hold up in real life, though it just might) is I suspect terrifying, because it makes for more cooling which translates directly into more power.  A laptop is a cooling starved desktop.  This is why I think the Mac Pro has more potential than ATX.  It’s got better max GPU cooling capacity.  It will always be able to run a given GPU architecture faster than an atx system because it’s got more cooling and can clock it higher.  I’m a bit worried about how they integrated their power system.  Doing it that way put a limit on how many watts they can put in.  It’s still more than atx can put out right now, but atx doesn’t have limited power input, just heat output.

[hishnash]

1 hour ago, saltycaramel said:

 

 

The whole rumor could actually be about new shiny iMacs and somehow be twisted to be about gaming along the way just because one particular config could be suitable for gaming..

Yes apple is overdue (as they commonly are) to re-fresh the iMacs. 

i would expect an iMac with a little bit of apple magic if they wanted to target gaming:

* Very high refresh rate and low latency 5k HDR display (or 4k HDR but the screen would be a little smaller apple are very particular about pixels per inch)

* Extremely low input latency. (for developer that use some api they provide, this is the area were apple can easily excel)

* A truck load of developer resources to optimise games for the mac (think of a console, and in comparison to windows machines how few diffrent  models of macs there are apple could, if they wanted, pay out studios to focus effort to optimise for mac.)
* outstanding audio, just take a look at the quality of the sound system in the new 16" MBP with a full iMac sized device those engineers will produce something outstanding. (I know gamers prefer headphones but i would expect with the quality of these speakers, and some apis, gamers might prefer dolby atmos for their games, its a very apple think to do)

the interesting thing here is i feel for apple all of these things are base model specs, unlike other device makers apple don't charge you more for an option with a better screen, or an upgraded speakers so if they do this the base model iMac will be this machine. (you might want to pay for the gpu upgrade but for eSports you might not even need to depending on how much effort apple puts into pushing the game studios to optimise) 

[Docta Fosta]

I think we all are aware of the problems that Apple would have in gamers taking their rigs seriously, but Apple has done fairly well creating and/or filling niche markets so far. 

 

I can see a POTENTIAL area where they could really become attractive in making a very specific use-case all-in-one desktop. We know the common things that a gaming rig needs: decent cpu, killer GPU, enough RAM, storage isn't AS important but maybe they could reduce loading times (most people don't care about the minuscule advantage possible in this), wired internet connection, etc. . . But, there are things that people take into special consideration when planning a build for gaming AND streaming, and I could see Apple filling this space. Upgrade the CPU with more cores to handle the streaming tasks, ultra-quiet fan and cooling operation, put on some great built-in lighting for the streamer's face with a built-in high-quality webcam with some macro keys that dock and undock and you're already on your way to a machine that doesn't exist as of now.

 

Even gaming laptops that have webcams often have compromises and are so loud it'd be obnoxious on a live stream. Add a stand that works for whatever the streamer would like to do with a high refresh-rate monitor and the all-in-one gaming and streaming computer suddenly looks like a better option than shopping around for lights, webcams, all of the stands for them, etc. I wouldn't even be surprised if there are people who want to start streaming and have plenty of money, but haven't done it because of the bother of getting the appropriate system with all of the extra gear required to start a high-quality version of a gaming stream.

 

There are clearly software issues as of now, but those could all potentially be solved. If you had the option of buying an all-in-one that had not only the capability of doing all of the gaming, streaming and video-editing that you'd need (for streaming videos which aren't usually so high quality as to overlap with Apple's other creator-content systems), but also had the clean aesthetic of Apple I think it might be attractive to buy an all-in-one that provides the instant ability to go from unboxing to streaming in the time it takes to install a game.

 

I am not saying Apple will do this specifically, but there are use-cases that could very easily be filled right now. I know of no other all-in-one system that includes things like lights, macro keys, webcam, and an appropriate high-refresh rate and resolution monitor with low input times. Even in the PC world it is possible to buy generic pre-builts with good specs, but unless you go for more expensive custom order companies even the prebuilts rarely come with everything you need. You often end up having to buy a separate monitor too, let alone webcams, lights microphones, etc. You could make an attractive package for gaming and streaming even at $5000.

 

Honestly, I would LOVE to see LMG make an all-in-one no-compromises gaming and streaming desktop. High refresh rate, low-input 2K monitor, quiet cooling solution, 10gig ethernet connection, lighting for a streamer setup, high-quality webcam, macro keys, convenient peripheral input connections, ballin GPU, custom 3D-printed case and all on an adjustable stand. And, of course, that sweet-sweet RGB goodness. Do that for under $5000, and I'd be dang impressed.

[saltycaramel]

One angle that needs to be addressed would be GPU upgrades. Consoles nowadays can pull off making you buy a whole new .5 “Pro” revision but they don’t cost 2k-5k$. This kind of gamers would expect being able to upgrade the GPU eventually.

 

Custom “cartridge-like” slot-in modules would be expensive and destined to stay niche and costly. (we’ve seen this happen with MXM modules). I’m imagining an iMac with the same design language of the XDR display, so full constant thickness, squareish and not tapered. Imagine inserting a “mini-MPX module” in that. If ever, this system would be put in place not just for gaming but for many kind of macs and purposes. But I realize it sounds like a stretch.

 

Thunderbolt eGPUs sounds like the obvious solution. If one looks at the benchmarks like the ones here

https://egpu.io/forums/builds/amd-x399-threadripper-1950x-gc-titan-ridge-radeon-vii32gbps-tb3-mantiz-venus-win10-1809-itsage/

 

on the one hand the performance hit is very real, but on the other hand..it’s doable, if the whole package (like the possible perks imagined in the posts above) offer you something in exchange for the performance hit you have to swallow. 

 

One better way to use eGPUs on an iMac would be do some “displayport routing magic” like the one we saw on the MacPro motherboard and enable a scenario in which the user would connect not one but two thunderbolt3 cables: one main cable just for full undisturbed pcie3.0 4x communication with the GPU, and one upstream cable to route back the displayport output to the internal screen. Or surprise the world with AMD CPUs + pcie 4.0 + Thunderbolt 4 and just use one 80Gbps-full-duplex cable. 

[hishnash]

1 hour ago, saltycaramel said:

 

on the one hand the performance hit is very real, but on the other hand..it’s doable, if the whole package (like the possible perks imagined in the posts above) offer you something in exchange for the performance hit you have to swallow. 

The performance hit can also be compensated through api changes. One of the key things that Metal supports compared to other display apis is on gpu render calls. Aka the gpu can self schedule renders this means the Communication between the CPU and GPU is significantly reduces. (ref: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/metal/indirect_command_buffers/encoding_indirect_command_buffers_on_the_gpu)  But that would require large changes to game engines to make use of this fully. Macos already supports driving the internal display from an eGPU the bandwidth to driver a high refresh rate display at 5k however would completely saturate the link.

they could fit a single slot card into a iMac shaped as you suggest. But somehow I suspect they would not want that card to have direct IO ports on it. So it would be more of a custom card with a custom connector and heatsink. 

I believe the might take learnings from the macPros cooling system were all the internal components have passive heatsinks and then have one (or two) large slower moving fans to push air through them.