Google Stadia in desperate need of promised "negative latency" mode

[Bombastinator]

Regarding AAs you have something of a point, especially over LiPo rechargeable bricks.  I personally favor 3.7v 18650 LiiOn over both of I have a choice.  Bigger than a single AA but otherwise the  Best of both worlds.

[vanished]

34 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Regarding AAs you have something of a point, especially over LiPo rechargeable bricks.  I personally favor 3.7v 18650 LiiOn over both of I have a choice.  Bigger than a single AA but otherwise the  Best of both worlds.

They each have pros and cons and they each have their place, but yeah for controllers that's how I'd do it.

 

Li-ion or Li-Po are more energy dense and can be made into convenient shapes, so that means smaller products and/or longer runtimes at the same (or less) size and weight.  It's also super convenient to just plug it into any USB charger.  However, they are generally hard to replace, either because the manufacturer has glued it in and/or made it inaccessible through other means, and/or just because it's a custom battery and you may not be able to get a spare now or in a few years.  They also require you to remain wired while charging.  If you run out of power while using the device, you have to either wait for it to recharge, or continue using it while it charges (if possible), and at that point you could just be using a wired device and have saved the money and hassle.

 

AAs or AAAs or any of those traditional types are bulky and hold less power, and they need a separate charger (assuming you are using rechargables, which you should).  Those are notable downsides.  However, you can swap them and keep playing in an instant, which means that the device will never be dragged down by aging batteries as they can always be easily replaced separately.  It also means that you are never waiting for a charge or become tethered to a charger.

 

I suppose the cells you mentioned combine some of the best of both, though nothing can be perfect.

[Bombastinator]

21 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

They each have pros and cons and they each have their place, but yeah for controllers that's how I'd do it.

 

Li-ion or Li-Po are more energy dense and can be made into convenient shapes, so that means smaller products and/or longer runtimes at the same (or less) size and weight.  It's also super convenient to just plug it into any USB charger.  However, they are generally hard to replace, either because the manufacturer has glued it in and/or made it inaccessible through other means, and/or just because it's a custom battery and you may not be able to get a spare now or in a few years.  They also require you to remain wired while charging.  If you run out of power while using the device, you have to either wait for it to recharge, or continue using it while it charges (if possible), and at that point you could just be using a wired device and have saved the money and hassle.

 

AAs or AAAs or any of those traditional types are bulky and hold less power, and they need a separate charger (assuming you are using rechargables, which you should).  Those are notable downsides.  However, you can swap them and keep playing in an instant, which means that the device will never be dragged down by aging batteries as they can always be easily replaced separately.  It also means that you are never waiting for a charge or become tethered to a charger.

 

I suppose the cells you mentioned combine some of the best of both, though nothing can be perfect.

LiPo is a type of LiiOn but it is by no means the only one.  There are a lot of chemistries. Compared to other LiiOn, LiPos pretty energy dense and they have the big advantage of being shapeable, but they’re very fragile, very combustible, and close to unremovable.  There’s generally a little cable.  There are other forms of LiiOn that behave much more like regular batteries (you can pull them out and charge them in a charger), they’re much more stable than LiPo, and they’re pretty much just as energy dense.  They are shaped much like AAs though.  The big issues are they’re both more fragile and larger than AAs while having the same not always convenient form factor.  They’re also about $7 a piece (you can get them for half that but don’t) they have a counterfeiting problem so you have to take care to buy real ones, and anything as energy dense as anLiPo is going to have energy release issues.  Like LiPos they can make big fire.

 

most power tools have a package of them inside the removable power packs than inser into the handles.  They’re very similar or a lot of electric car batteries.  Car batteries are LiiOn to but they’re basically never LiPo. Those things are too flammable and heat sensitive to be safe in a car.  Tesla makes their own with their own proprietary LiiOn chemistry.  It’s got aluminum and cobalt and lithium iirc.  Lower wattage but insane recharge number.

[Taf the Ghost]

2 hours ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

Update:

 

Gamers Nexus has now taken a look at the whole stack, and here's the TL;DR:

• The service is outright not working for them at all - never mind latency, there are bigger issues at play here.
• If you have a corporate G-suite account like LTT and many other businesses, you are able to use it to buy Stadia, but not to actually play it.  They had to make a new normal Google account to actually try using the service.
• Their activation codes have gotten "lost in the mail", which is particularly odd since it's Google all the way down, from email service to the product itself.
• You need a Pixel phone to download the app to register even though a Pixel is not necessary to use the service.
• The controller is extremely difficult if not impossible to non-destructively disassemble.  This is not only unnecessary but in this case also problematic since the Li-ion battery is inside and as we all know, batteries wear out over time.  One reason I still like good ol' AAs on any device that it's still practical to use them with, but I digress.

As a note, from looking at the related Reddits, it appears a lot of first 24 hour buyers have yet to get either hardware, codes or both. So even if you have the Internet connection to handle it, Google is being rather slow and weirdly delayed in launching the product to the people that paid for it.

[mr moose]

56 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

LiPo is a type of LiiOn but it is by no means the only one.  There are a lot of chemistries. Compared to other LiiOn, LiPos pretty energy dense and they have the big advantage of being shapeable, but they’re very fragile, very combustible, and close to unremovable.  There’s generally a little cable.  There are other forms of LiiOn that behave much more like regular batteries (you can pull them out and charge them in a charger), they’re much more stable than LiPo, and they’re pretty much just as energy dense.  They are shaped much like AAs though.  The big issues are they’re both more fragile and larger than AAs while having the same not always convenient form factor.  They’re also about $7 a piece (you can get them for half that but don’t) they have a counterfeiting problem so you have to take care to buy real ones, and anything as energy dense as anLiPo is going to have energy release issues.  Like LiPos they can make big fire.

 

most power tools have a package of them inside the removable power packs than inser into the handles.  They’re very similar or a lot of electric car batteries.  Car batteries are LiiOn to but they’re basically never LiPo. Those things are too flammable and heat sensitive to be safe in a car.  Tesla makes their own with their own proprietary LiiOn chemistry.  It’s got aluminum and cobalt and lithium iirc.  Lower wattage but insane recharge number.

Yep, drills and power tools generally have a pack of 18650's and a high current controller. And lipo is more often found in model planes/boats etc where their size and weight to energy density is a winner.   Also lipo have lower life cycles but can dump a lot more current safely.

[TechyBen]

5 hours ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

They each have pros and cons and they each have their place, but yeah for controllers that's how I'd do it.

 

Li-ion or Li-Po are more energy dense and can be made into convenient shapes, so that means smaller products and/or longer runtimes at the same (or less) size and weight.  It's also super convenient to just plug it into any USB charger.  However, they are generally hard to replace, either because the manufacturer has glued it in and/or made it inaccessible through other means, and/or just because it's a custom battery and you may not be able to get a spare now or in a few years.  They also require you to remain wired while charging.  If you run out of power while using the device, you have to either wait for it to recharge, or continue using it while it charges (if possible), and at that point you could just be using a wired device and have saved the money and hassle.

 

AAs or AAAs or any of those traditional types are bulky and hold less power, and they need a separate charger (assuming you are using rechargables, which you should).  Those are notable downsides.  However, you can swap them and keep playing in an instant, which means that the device will never be dragged down by aging batteries as they can always be easily replaced separately.  It also means that you are never waiting for a charge or become tethered to a charger.

 

I suppose the cells you mentioned combine some of the best of both, though nothing can be perfect.

I'd assume (at this point) that it's a safety thing. You cannot guarantee a rechargeable supplied by the end user is not going to catch fire. And then Google get hit by a lawsuit. So to avoid it, they go WMD on the thing.

 

However, having a easily accessible by service engineer battery vs no possible option is another thing. My old Xbox360 controller had wired, AA and customer rechargeable power pack in 1 controller as options. Stadia? Has "bin it" as an option.

[Trik'Stari]

Can we please let this die before we end up with every game publisher trying to create their own streaming service and ending up where the video streaming market has gone?

[Blademaster91]

56 minutes ago, TechyBen said:

I'd assume (at this point) that it's a safety thing. You cannot guarantee a rechargeable supplied by the end user is not going to catch fire. And then Google get hit by a lawsuit. So to avoid it, they go WMD on the thing.

 

However, having a easily accessible by service engineer battery vs no possible option is another thing. My old Xbox360 controller had wired, AA and customer rechargeable power pack in 1 controller as options. Stadia? Has "bin it" as an option.

I'm not even sure how a service person would open the thing, seeing GN Steve having to take a dremel tool to the controller because the device is held together with clips instead of screws was funny to watch though. I agree the Stadia controller should have a removable battery,as it's $129 for the controller and rather wasteful to throw it away when the batteries wear out.

I don't really see the value in the Stadia service as someone in the US either, not when I could just get a console. The $129 controller, $9.99 a month for games you don't own? Another $70 for another controller so you can play with friends.  And at least another $80-100 a month for decent enough internet to play the games, unless you're in a large city that offers a fast and cheap ISP.

[TechyBen]

1 hour ago, Blademaster91 said:

I'm not even sure how a service person would open the thing, seeing GN Steve having to take a dremel tool to the controller because the device is held together with clips instead of screws was funny to watch though. I agree the Stadia controller should have a removable battery,as it's $129 for the controller and rather wasteful to throw it away when the batteries wear out.

I don't really see the value in the Stadia service as someone in the US either, not when I could just get a console. The $129 controller, $9.99 a month for games you don't own? Another $70 for another controller so you can play with friends.  And at least another $80-100 a month for decent enough internet to play the games, unless you're in a large city that offers a fast and cheap ISP.

Oh, I agree... as said, comparing to the Xbox360 controller, this thing is a car crash.

[weeblord]

Well I think we all knew that this would happen. Negative latency, they said. It will be playable, they said.

[vanished]

More details from GN for those interested.  I haven't seen them rip something apart this badly in a very long time lol

TL;DR, nothing to see here, everyone go home.  They literally can't review it because it simply does not work.  They never got their code to activate it, and even if they had gotten it, it was only by luck they would have been able to play because one employee had a Pixel phone.  Anyone who doesn't own a Pixel can not use the app and thus can not use the service.  Unbelievable lol

[Taf the Ghost]

2 hours ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

More details from GN for those interested.  I haven't seen them rip something apart this badly in a very long time lol

TL;DR, nothing to see here, everyone go home.  They literally can't review it because it simply does not work.  They never got their code to activate it, and even if they had gotten it, it was only by luck they would have been able to play because one employee had a Pixel phone.  Anyone who doesn't own a Pixel can not use the app and thus can not use the service.  Unbelievable lol

We're pretty sure GN is wrong about "have to have a Pixel". It's just that the Pixel was the only phone they could find that would load the app properly. Slight difference, but the app loading issue is just another problem.

[vanished]

Just now, Taf the Ghost said:

We're pretty sure GN is wrong about "have to have a Pixel". It's just that the Pixel was the only phone they could find that would load the app properly. Slight difference, but the app loading issue is just another problem.

Well, true I suppose, we don't know that it only works on a Pixel for certain, but we have seen that it doesn't work on many android phones that shouldn't have had a problem, and that you need a phone of some kind at least which should definitely not be the case.

[Taf the Ghost]

Just now, Ryan_Vickers said:

Well, true I suppose, we don't know that it only works on a Pixel for certain, but we have seen that it doesn't work on many android phones that shouldn't have had a problem, and that you need a phone of some kind at least which should definitely not be the case.

It's definitely a big issue, but at least, if you have a Pixel, you know it'll work. If they shipped it to you. The fact it wouldn't load on Burke's S10 should be more concerning.

 

Seems, if you have a solid enough connection, you also probably need to buy a "gaming" router. So a Stadia setup is currently running about ~330USD to ~500USD to get started, plus a device that can display the images and the monthly connection & bandwidth available. 

 

So, yeah, it's more expensive than a Console and by a lot.

[GoodBytes]

1 hour ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

Well, true I suppose, we don't know that it only works on a Pixel for certain, but we have seen that it doesn't work on many android phones that shouldn't have had a problem, and that you need a phone of some kind at least which should definitely not be the case.

In my book, regardless of the phone requirement, Google knows that the majority of Android users are stuck on old versions of their OS, and they never cared about it. Heck, their very own phones has ONLY 3 years of support, where it is 2 years of OS updates, and 1 year after that of only security updates. Microsoft with it's dead phone supported it for a solid 4 years, and Apple has 6 years of not only security updates but OS updates. While I don't know the details on market share, I think their app should support Android 4.2 or 4.4  and up, at the very least.. or you know.... web browser. Is it that hard to make a website with an image and a text box calling the very same web APIs that the app on the phone calls via JavaScript? I don't think so. 

[Derangel]

8 hours ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

Well, true I suppose, we don't know that it only works on a Pixel for certain, but we have seen that it doesn't work on many android phones that shouldn't have had a problem, and that you need a phone of some kind at least which should definitely not be the case.

According to Google the app will supposedly work on things besides the Pixel but they are incredibly vague and only say " However, purchasing games and managing your content can be done from any iOS 11+ or Android M+ device that can run the Stadia app". Though mobile gameplay can ONLY be done on Pixel phones until next year.

[vanished]

1 hour ago, Derangel said:

According to Google the app will supposedly work on things besides the Pixel but they are incredibly vague and only say " However, purchasing games and managing your content can be done from any iOS 11+ or Android M+ device that can run the Stadia app". Though mobile gameplay can ONLY be done on Pixel phones until next year.

It's important to not get tunnel vision on that issue though.  In truth, the issue isn't that you need a pixel phone or whatever the reality is, it's that you need a phone period.  GN posted on this actually, saying:

Quote

Just to re-iterate a point about Stadia: You should not need a phone ever, at any step in this process, to activate Stadia on a desktop web browser (its most heavily marketed use). Even if the app "works" on certain phones or with newest updates, you should not need one to play on desktop with Google's own Chrome browser at all. Ever. For users who want to play on their lower-end laptop or desktop with a Chrome browser, it should be as simple as activating the code on the Google website. A phone has 0 reason for involvement, aside from if you wanted to stream to the phone, of course. Google is just trying to force phone usage to activate this service so that it can harvest more of your data, and a lot of people are stuck on "but you didn't use latest Android" and overlooking that it's actually totally irrelevant for a service which isn't, for a lot of users, ever going to be deployed on a phone. Also it still didn't work when we used it on a Pixel 2 because, now approaching 36 hours later, we still don't have access codes. Same is true for a lot of customers.

https://www.youtube.com/post/UgyaBw-8Fj0L_8o0oAR4AaABCQ

[vanished]

GN has now purchased a working code from one of their viewers who was lucky enough to actually receive it.  As such, you can expect a "real" review from them soon^TM

https://www.youtube.com/post/Ugw08kpg9rai5h3ewSV4AaABCQ

[Unixsystem]

On 11/20/2019 at 12:01 AM, Bombastinator said:

Regarding AAs you have something of a point, especially over LiPo rechargeable bricks.  I personally favor 3.7v 18650 LiiOn over both of I have a choice.  Bigger than a single AA but otherwise the  Best of both worlds.

The problem I see is that AAs are such a standard that the second you try to introduce a new better standard, you get the XKCD problem of needless fragmentation. At this point I feel like the vast majority of consumer devices that still use replaceable batteries are things like remote controls and wireless KB/M where one set of AA/AAA will last you potentially years, so trying to convert that to a potentially better standard seems futile.

 

That said, it would be cool if MS, Sony and maybe a few PC peripheral companies like Logitech or Razer agreed to standardize on a Li Ion cell that could both be recharged with a USB cable while in the device, or swapped out with little to no effort beyond what a AA typically would. Seeing as those seem to be pretty much the only common devices nowadays that really suck down battery, it would only take a few to make it an alternative to AAs for "high end" devices. Bonus points if the cells come in a form factor that makes them theoretically usable for phone manufacturers (not that we'll ever see the glory days of removable phone batteries being the norm again).

[ARikozuM]

I'm usually very forgiving about promises on newly released products, but this is definitely terrible. There are multiple issues surrounding Google's release that should not have happened with a company worth billions. 

[Bombastinator]

6 hours ago, Waffles13 said:

The problem I see is that AAs are such a standard that the second you try to introduce a new better standard, you get the XKCD problem of needless fragmentation. At this point I feel like the vast majority of consumer devices that still use replaceable batteries are things like remote controls and wireless KB/M where one set of AA/AAA will last you potentially years, so trying to convert that to a potentially better standard seems futile.

 

That said, it would be cool if MS, Sony and maybe a few PC peripheral companies like Logitech or Razer agreed to standardize on a Li Ion cell that could both be recharged with a USB cable while in the device, or swapped out with little to no effort beyond what a AA typically would. Seeing as those seem to be pretty much the only common devices nowadays that really suck down battery, it would only take a few to make it an alternative to AAs for "high end" devices. Bonus points if the cells come in a form factor that makes them theoretically usable for phone manufacturers (not that we'll ever see the glory days of removable phone batteries being the norm again).

Too late.  They’re already around and have been for 10 years. Every cordless drill ever uses them.  Also every usb power bank, every “thick” computer laptop battery, all kinds of stuff.  You just don’t often see them because they’re inside “power packs”

[Hugh54321]

All the money google wasted on this could have been spent on an epic world wide quake elimination contest

[vanished]

On 11/21/2019 at 6:46 PM, Ryan_Vickers said:

GN has now purchased a working code from one of their viewers who was lucky enough to actually receive it.  As such, you can expect a "real" review from them soon^TM

https://www.youtube.com/post/Ugw08kpg9rai5h3ewSV4AaABCQ

Their review is now out.  I'd encourage anyone who's still interested in this topic to give it a watch, but I'll include a few clippings below.

 

Below you see a PC vs Stadia latency comparison in one of the four main games they tested.  Please note that in some cases, Stadia was far worse than this, scoring well past the unplayable line, but in some cases it was much closer to PC.

 

 

From this you can see two things though:

1. Their results are massively better than the WP
2. Despite this, they are still massively worse than native and definitely getting up into the range you would feel it and likely be annoyed.

Below are two short video clips from a different game.  The first is ripped directly from their review and shows the latency experienced (slowed for effect).  Below that is an edited version intended to give a sense of how this should look and feel if there was little to no latency, in case you have trouble imagining it.

 

 

 

In conclusion, they shared WPs concerns that the latency was an issue, and on top of that, reiterated that the business plan is simply not competitive or appealing.  If it was simply a subscription service for which you had access to a huge games library, perhaps it would make more sense, but as it stands, you have to buy the games anyway, same as you would on PC or console, but then also pay a subscription fee on top if that.  Bundle this to the very real risk that the service might just disappear overnight, along with the games you paid for, and it's clear we should be weary of the option at best for now.

[ARikozuM]

[facepalms]

[CarlBar]

10 hours ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

Their review is now out.  I'd encourage anyone who's still interested in this topic to give it a watch, but I'll include a few clippings below.

 

Below you see a PC vs Stadia latency comparison in one of the four main games they tested.  Please note that in some cases, Stadia was far worse than this, scoring well past the unplayable line, but in some cases it was much closer to PC.

 

 

From this you can see two things though:

1. Their results are massively better than the WP
2. Despite this, they are still massively worse than native and definitely getting up into the range you would feel it and likely be annoyed.

Below are two short video clips from a different game.  The first is ripped directly from their review and shows the latency experienced (slowed for effect).  Below that is an edited version intended to give a sense of how this should look and feel if there was little to no latency, in case you have trouble imagining it.

 

 

 

In conclusion, they shared WPs concerns that the latency was an issue, and on top of that, reiterated that the business plan is simply not competitive or appealing.  If it was simply a subscription service for which you had access to a huge games library, perhaps it would make more sense, but as it stands, you have to buy the games anyway, same as you would on PC or console, but then also pay a subscription fee on top if that.  Bundle this to the very real risk that the service might just disappear overnight, along with the games you paid for, and it's clear we should be weary of the option at best for now.

 

To expand a bit:

 

What they found in their review was that Google stadia done through a browser was perfectly usable with no serious latency issues, they did express concern about how it might work on a weaker connection and they had some very unhappy things to say about the limited resolutions available and other options, not to mention how bad the low bandwidth mode was. They did express some mild reservations about how it might do on twitch shooters and beat em ups, but they where mild.

 

The testing using the chromecast however got a universal negetive reaction in the extreme latency even in low resolution was significantly worse than in browser and the option where even more limited.

 

Now for my own thoughts:

 

One comment i would make is that whilst the expressed concern about beat em ups and FPS games, i didn't see anything that looked like a test to see how the PC solution performed in an MP environment in such games.My experiance is online modes tend to add a noticeable amount of latency all on their own, given everything is being hosted on google's servers that probably shouldn't have any effect on stadia, but it would definitely worsen the PC alternative.