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spartaman64

Gamefreak lies about not reusing models in pokemon sword and shield (spoilers)

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15 hours ago, comander said:

Let's do some basic math. 

You have 800 pokemon. 
There are then 64000 combinations you could have in battle. 
There are 100 levels...
There are then 640,000,000 combinations. 

Each pokemon can learn an average of 100 moves...

There are then 6,400,000,000,000 combinations. For 1v1 battles. This doesn't include 1v6; 3v3, etc. 
It also doesn't account for doubles battles, triples, reverse battles, gimmicks like dynamax, megaevolution or special moves... 


Honestly, it's a HUGE HUGE mess to QA, even with a lot of automation tools. 

Cutting to a smaller size can result in a MUCH MUCH more polished experience. 

This includes in-game and competitive. 

I don't really think that matters. I suspect the basic logic does not deviate much from the first installment. Basically all the balancing and logic should already be there from the previous installments. It's not like the premise or gameloop changes that much.

 

It's still much work to make a new game (map,story, new gen monsters,port it to a new console,...) however the base is there and has been tested/improved upon since the nineties.

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15 hours ago, samcool55 said:

You forgot that not every pokemon has the same stats.

There is a level of randomness to it. Speed, attack, defense, all those things are different from pokemon to pokemon.

Even if the pokemons are the same, like pikachu vs pikachu.

And they can change a LOT, like, insane.

Bulbasaur for example at level 100 has attack points between 92 and 216, that's a massive gap.

https://pokemondb.net/pokedex/bulbasaur

Also iv training. 

 

 

They could have at least kept the first 150 seeing as these are the ones we started with


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There is a lot of real life stuff that should cause legitimate outrage and yet people are more concerned about a pokemon game. Really asounding priorities!

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Posted · Original PosterOP
34 minutes ago, Teddy07 said:

There is a lot of real life stuff that should cause legitimate outrage and yet people are more concerned about a pokemon game. Really asounding priorities!

you can say that about anything on this forum. why are people outraged about apple when theres world hunger. why are people outraged about facebook spying when theres terrorism. dont you dare complain about fallout 76 being pay to win when cancer still exists. and i bet theres a series or a franchise that you love and would be concerned about if the creators seem to be going in the wrong direction

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27 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

you can say that about anything on this forum. why are people outraged about apple when theres world hunger. why are people outraged about facebook spying when theres terrorism. dont you dare complain about fallout 76 being pay to win when cancer still exists. and i bet theres a series or a franchise that you love and would be concerned about if the creators seem to be going in the wrong direction

I have to concede that point. I should have thought more about it

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Eeeehhh.

It sucks that Gamefreak obviously lied about not reusing the models, as an excuse to not put all of them in... 

But I'll still be buying it, because honestly I wasn't going to ever complete the "national dex"and would only play with the same handful of pokemon without giving a single fuck about IV anyway, while the rest of the pokemon gather dust in the PC.


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A: The "leak" started from someone posting comparison images of model wireframes from Sun and Moon and Sword and Shield... On 4chan. Yup, that's very trustworthy and legit source to go for some actual facts and not at all for troll posts and general fuckery /s

B: Someone streamed Sword and Shield on Twitch... Which was basicly a game that didn't have even animations turned on and god knows what else was fucked up in that version.

 

A+B and people go batshit crazy dramaqueens in less than a second and prepare to go full Spanish inquisition on GameFreak. [joke] And someone still questions why modern adult Pokemon fans are treated like mentally handicapped [/joke].

 

For a second let's forget that the leak was published on 4chan and imagine that there was some actually creditable and serious source for it. Still doesn't mean much when there's only wireframes posted with some polygonal numbers, they just tell from what the model is made from. We are missing smoothing group data, UV-maps, skeletal information, LOD data, textures and probably something else which I have no interest to remember now, but yeah, 3D-model is a lot more than just the polygons and usually the polygons are the easy part of the model, UV-map and skeletal can be real PIAs and take a lot more than what was used on making the visible model and quite usually when converting model from one fileformat to another, those are the data that gets fucked up and requires remaking. Hell even if you use the same OBJ-format in two different game engines you might get a lot of oddities and other "happy little accidents" because the game engines handle the model differently and want different kind of animation/skeletal format for their use. What I'm saying is that you go and just update your tools and change the game engine and SURPRISE! Your long lasting 3D-models that you thought you could use for the next decade require as much work per model as making completely new ones because everything is fucked up (thank you MODO, 3Ds Max, Blender and others who can't make one single fileformat that would be handled the same way everywhere and that would include the most needed elements and nothing more, especially looking at you Blender for being little shitbag who always, I mean ALWAYS, needs to be so fucking open and free that they cannot make a single thing as the others do, even if doing that thing would be completely open and free for them to do).

 

And after all it was really time to make some drastic cuts to the amount of Pokemons. Especially now with all of the mega-giga-tera-dark-ultimatum-evolution forms. GameFreak run out of ideas years ago and it's time to get back to the basics and making something actually meaningful and no more this:

spacer.png (Yes, that's a trashbag and a real Pokemon. They literally made a Pokemon out of a trashbag. And that was already years ago.)

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2 minutes ago, Thaldor said:

For a second let's forget that the leak was published on 4chan and imagine that there was some actually creditable and serious source for it. Still doesn't mean much when there's only wireframes posted with some polygonal numbers, they just tell from what the model is made from. We are missing smoothing group data, UV-maps, skeletal information, LOD data, textures and probably something else which I have no interest to remember now, but yeah, 3D-model is a lot more than just the polygons and usually the polygons are the easy part of the model, UV-map and skeletal can be real PIAs and take a lot more than what was used on making the visible model and quite usually when converting model from one fileformat to another, those are the data that gets fucked up and requires remaking. Hell even if you use the same OBJ-format in two different game engines you might get a lot of oddities and other "happy little accidents" because the game engines handle the model differently and want different kind of animation/skeletal format for their use. What I'm saying is that you go and just update your tools and change the game engine and SURPRISE! Your long lasting 3D-models that you thought you could use for the next decade require as much work per model as making completely new ones because everything is fucked up (thank you MODO, 3Ds Max, Blender and others who can't make one single fileformat that would be handled the same way everywhere and that would include the most needed elements and nothing more, especially looking at you Blender for being little shitbag who always, I mean ALWAYS, needs to be so fucking open and free that they cannot make a single thing as the others do, even if doing that thing would be completely open and free for them to do).

It almost sounds like someone who knows what they're talking about on the subject at hand

 

(I say this endearingly, pls don't hurt me)

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I don't want a national dex so this doesn't bother me. Isn't it better for competitive with no national dex? I also get confused by all the pokemon I don't know if they add them all in.

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Posted · Original PosterOP
52 minutes ago, Thaldor said:

 

btw that trash bag is in sword and shield.

i noted in my op that the battle animations might be turned off but the still doesnt excuse the out of battle ones

this guy looks at more than just the wire frames 

the files are data mine from the game people are getting physical copies early either from mom and pop stores that dont understand release dates or some target somewhere putting them out early by accident. 

i never went spanish Inquisition on game freak i didnt call for employees to be burned at the stake or anything all i said is that they shouldnt have lied about the models.

i said before i agree that cuts need to happen eventually but i dont agree with cutting this many this quickly.  

also ive said before the game could still be a good game its just that things dont look good right now.

 

what happened? i remember a time when we demanded honesty and quality from game devs. i remember the old ubisoft keep digging memes and people asking why watch dog's graphics got downgraded from the demo. i remember people complaining about how poorly optimized arkhan knight is for the pc. but now we not only accept that games are going to be rushed and unfinished on release and game devs are going to lie to us we defend it. 

is it any surprise that we get stuff like anthem, fallout 76, mass effect andromeda and wwe 2020 now

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56 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

what happened? i remember a time when we demanded honesty and quality from game devs

We still do.

 

But as a fan I will only backlash at the developer on something I or anyone else can definitively prove. Can you definitively prove that Game Freak (or rather Creatures, since they're the ones who do the actual modeling) directly copied assets? Because if you can, I'd really like to know how to do it so I can verify it myself.

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@spartaman64 hold on a second, where's the source that GF even claimed that they would be "building from scratch"? I sure as hell can't find it - and it's not in any of your source links, as far as I can tell.

 

I did find his response to the "outrage", which is listed on the GF website (in both Japanese and translated into English):

https://www.pokemon.com/us/a-message-for-pokemon-video-game-fans/

 

But I can't find anything where he actually said they would rebuild from scratch.

 

Aside from that, until the game comes out, we simply can't be sure whether or not that's true (regardless of whether he said it).

 

Wait until it comes out, and then we can see if it's the same quality, or higher quality, than the 3DS game.


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7 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

@spartaman64 hold on a second, where's the source that GF even claimed that they would be "building from scratch"? I sure as hell can't find it - and it's not in any of your source links, as far as I can tell.

https://www.famitsu.com/news/201906/13177936.html

 

I think that's the article in question. The answer to question 2 contains a line where if you pop it into Google Translate, it spits out "we decided to build models from scratch" or something. I asked my friend who knows Japanese what that line really meant and they said it meant "we decided from the beginning to remake the models"

 

This screams like the whole "Square Enix is censoring games!" debacle when someone directly translated a blurb about Tifa's design in the FF7 Remake and people took it out of context.

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14 minutes ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

https://www.famitsu.com/news/201906/13177936.html

 

I think that's the article in question. The answer to question 2 contains a line where if you pop it into Google Translate, it spits out "we decided to build models from scratch" or something. I asked my friend who knows Japanese what that line really meant and they said it meant "we decided from the beginning to remake the models"

 

This screams like the whole "Square Enix is censoring games!" debacle when someone directly translated a blurb about Tifa's design in the FF7 Remake and people took it out of context.

Interesting - I still think this is a big ole nothing sandwich. They should wait until the damn game comes out, and decide for themselves if it looks better quality than the 3DS games. So much more goes into a model than just the 3D model itself.


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... are we really in a world where ppl are complaining about reused models and polygon counts for characters in our beloved franchises?! WTH, either it will be a good game or not, poly count or an asset imported from sun/moon and up-scaled won't change that. SO many games re-use assets, as long as they match in-game (and i have seen nothing to indicate otherwise), I see no problem with it. Stop being mad just to be mad ppl, I know it's so cool these days... lol. This is Nintendo/game freak we are talking about here, have faith that they know what they are doing... this isn't *ahem* EA *ahem* 


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10 minutes ago, EarthWormJM2 said:

... are we really in a world where ppl are complaining about reused models and polygon counts for characters in our beloved franchises?! WTH, either it will be a good game or not, poly count or an asset imported from sun/moon and up-scaled won't change that. SO many games re-use assets, as long as they match in-game (and i have seen nothing to indicate otherwise), I see no problem with it. Stop being mad just to be mad ppl, I know it's so cool these days... lol. This is Nintendo/game freak we are talking about here, have faith that they know what they are doing... this isn't *ahem* EA *ahem* 

I think people who are upset about the cutting of the roster are looking for any reason to continue berating Game Freak.

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10 hours ago, LeSheen said:

I don't really think that matters. I suspect the basic logic does not deviate much from the first installment. Basically all the balancing and logic should already be there from the previous installments. It's not like the premise or gameloop changes that much.

 

It's still much work to make a new game (map,story, new gen monsters,port it to a new console,...) however the base is there and has been tested/improved upon since the nineties.

You have new pokemon... 

At some level I suspect they're trying to make a new meta-game for the MP which is tricky in and of itself.


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Posted · Original PosterOP
42 minutes ago, EarthWormJM2 said:

... are we really in a world where ppl are complaining about reused models and polygon counts for characters in our beloved franchises?! WTH, either it will be a good game or not, poly count or an asset imported from sun/moon and up-scaled won't change that. SO many games re-use assets, as long as they match in-game (and i have seen nothing to indicate otherwise), I see no problem with it. Stop being mad just to be mad ppl, I know it's so cool these days... lol. This is Nintendo/game freak we are talking about here, have faith that they know what they are doing... this isn't *ahem* EA *ahem* 

 

30 minutes ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

I think people who are upset about the cutting of the roster are looking for any reason to continue berating Game Freak.

No they promised something in return for cutting the national dex that they didnt deliver. Is there no concept of accountability any more and devs are expected to lie to their fan base and get away with it

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Posted · Original PosterOP
30 minutes ago, comander said:

You have new pokemon... 

At some level I suspect they're trying to make a new meta-game for the MP which is tricky in and of itself.

Pokemon is never going to be balanced unless they cut the number of pokemon to 5 or remove all mechanics unique to different pokemon and make them all do the same thing

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2 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

No they promised something in return for cutting the national dex that they didnt deliver. Is there no concept of accountability any more and devs are expected to lie to their fan base and get away with it

We don't know that. You're coming to a conclusion without all available evidence.

 

At worst, all we can say right now is that one or two models are similar in mesh to their 3DS counterparts. That says nothing about animations, textures, and everything else that goes into a 3D object.

 

It also says nothing of the other... what... 398 pokemon?


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8 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

No they promised something in return for cutting the national dex that they didnt deliver. Is there no concept of accountability any more and devs are expected to lie to their fan base and get away with it

You still haven't proven this. By prove, did you actually take a production cartridge or ROM file, dump its contents, and examine it yourself? And can you give said method so that others can verify from the point of having a cartridge?

 

Because if you did none of this, what some rando on the internet says should be taken with a grain of salt.

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Posted · Original PosterOP
3 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

We don't know that. You're coming to a conclusion without all available evidence.

 

At worst, all we can say right now is that one or two models are similar in mesh to their 3DS counterparts. That says nothing about animations, textures, and everything else that goes into a 3D object.

 

It also says nothing of the other... what... 398 pokemon?

I already explained data mining and people looked through a lot of them and sure some had minor differences but the vast majority were the same. I play a mmo called bdo and in the beginning it had lots of hidden stats and the rng enhancement system percentages were also hidden and then bloo data mined the game and gave us concrete numbers on them. Then earlier this year the devs made them all visible and confirmed what bloo data mined.

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Posted · Original PosterOP
Just now, Mira Yurizaki said:

You still haven't proven this. By prove, did you actually take a production cartridge or ROM file, dump its contents, and examine it yourself? And can you give said method so that others can verify from the point of having a cartridge?

 

Because if you did none of this, what some rando on the internet says should be taken with a grain of salt.

Ofc you should take it with a grain of salt but with many individual data miners confirming the same thing and nobody came out to say they data mined something different its pretty credible imo

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Just now, spartaman64 said:

I already explained data mining and people looked through a lot of them and sure some had minor differences but the vast majority were the same. I play a mmo called bdo and in the beginning it had lots of hidden stats and the rng enhancement system percentages were also hidden and then bloo data mined the game and gave us concrete numbers on them. Then earlier this year the devs made them all visible and confirmed what bloo data mined.

Have you seen the gameplay, though? Have you seen the end result of the visual quality of the game and the models in question?

 

Just... just stop. Stop, take a step back, and judge the game for yourself on whether you think there's a justifiable increase in quality.


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1 minute ago, spartaman64 said:

I play a mmo called bdo and in the beginning it had lots of hidden stats and the rng enhancement system percentages were also hidden and then bloo data mined the game and gave us concrete numbers on them. Then earlier this year the devs made them all visible and confirmed what bloo data mined.

Your anecdotal is irrelevant.

2 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

people looked through a lot of them and sure some had minor differences but the vast majority were the same.

People CLAIMED that. Doesn’t mean jack shit until we can actually verify that.

 

Actually, still doesn’t mean shit. We don’t have access to every detail of the model development in Sword and Shield.


Come Bloody Angel

Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

The blood is on your hands!

 

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