why don't more people here use older server stuff?

[Ashleyyyy]

i know loads of people here use older hardware, but what i don't understand is that so few people use older server stuff in their builds. 

i mean for €80 you can get a motherboard, 2 quad-core Xeon's and about 6gb of ram, if you look around a bit. 

you'd think more people would buy hardware this cheap and this powerful...

[aezakmi]

9 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

i mean for €80 you can get a motherboard, 2 quad-core Xeon's and about 6gb of ram

yeah good luck finding that outside europe or the us

 

 

[Ashleyyyy]

Just now, aezakmi said:

yeah good luck finding that outside europe or the us

i'm not familiar with the used markets outside of Europe. is server stuff really so rare outside of Europe or the USA?

[Electronics Wizardy]

features and power and ease of use

 

THose old 771 and 1366 systems don't have things like usb3, nvme boot, spectere and meltdown fixes. They also have very few usb ports often and no built in audio.

 

Also a lot of those old server boards are system specfic and not atx

 

also no warranty.

[Ashleyyyy]

9 minutes ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

features and power and ease of use

 

THose old 771 and 1366 systems don't have things like usb3, nvme boot, spectere and meltdown fixes. They also have very few usb ports often and no built in audio.

usb3 and other usb ports can be added with expansion cards. 

besides i want to know why people who build with used hardware, which isn't gonna have any of that stuff anyway, don't choose older server stuff. 

 

9 minutes ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

Also a lot of those old server boards are system specfic and not atx

that's true, but there are standards. the advantage of server stuff is that everything is very well documented. 

and there's always DIY modding. 

 

9 minutes ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

also no warranty.

i'm talking about people who use used hardware. so there's no warranty there to start with. 

[Electronics Wizardy]

1 minute ago, firelighter487 said:

usb3 and other usb ports can be added with expansion cards. 

But that adds to the cost and makes it much harder to use instead of a used i5 system.

 

1 minute ago, firelighter487 said:

hat's true, but there are standards. the advantage of server stuff is that everything is very well documented. 

and there's always DIY modding. 

Look at things like old power edge systems. There easy to upgrade and work on, but a pain to make a gaming system.

 

 

Thing with a used system a old optiplex or simmilar will be better for gaming that a old server. There about the same price and the old desktop works much better as a desktop or gaming system(audio, usb3, gpu support is better, easier to setup, faster in games)

[Ashleyyyy]

1 minute ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

But that adds to the cost

usb 2.0 cards cost almost nothing. and it depends on the person. i have no need for usb 3.0, so i have no need to buy an expansion card for it. 

 

2 minutes ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

and makes it much harder to use instead of a used i5 system.

how does a usb card make a system harder to use?

 

3 minutes ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

Look at things like old power edge systems. There easy to upgrade and work on, but a pain to make a gaming system.

why? if they are easy to upgrade it should be easy right?

 

3 minutes ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

Thing with a used system a old optiplex or simmilar will be better for gaming that a old server. There about the same price and the old desktop works much better as a desktop or gaming system(audio, usb3, gpu support is better, easier to setup, faster in games)

what gpu's does a desktop from 2010 support that a server board from 2010 doesn't? 

partially agree on the audio, but that's no problem for me because i use hdmi audio. 

 

to clarify, i'm not talking about huge dell servers. i'm talking about buying something like this: https://www.asus.com/nl/Commercial-Servers-Workstations/Z8PED18/

and using it in some kind of (modded) case (you can buy cases that support EEB boards out of the box) and using it as a desktop motherboard.

[aezakmi]

14 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

i'm not familiar with the used markets outside of Europe. is server stuff really so rare outside of Europe or the USA?

not extremely rare but usually is +15 years old stuff, DDR most of the times and even older, not to mention the high prices, it's just not worth to get it

[desertcomputer]

Cost and availability, in most case you could build ryzen system for a few dollars more and don't have wait for seller in China to send CPU/motherboard. In market such as US you might find really good deals on these parts and from local sellers but other countries don't have access to this. If you were building a pc would buy something that cost around 100 dollars more for warranty and more features such as audio. 

[Electronics Wizardy]

1 minute ago, firelighter487 said:

to clarify, i'm not talking about huge dell servers. i'm talking about buying something like this: https://www.asus.com/nl/Commercial-Servers-Workstations/Z8PED18/

and using it in some kind of (modded) case (you can buy cases that support EEB boards out of the box) and using it as a desktop motherboard.

But why should i get that instead of something like a older i7 or i5? The i7 or i5 will be faster in most games. and desktop uses. 

 

Have you seen how expensive those good dual socket boards are these days? That one you listed is about 150 usd on ebay. For that price of that and cpu's I can get a new ryzen system that is supported and faster in games and most dekstop tasks.

 

3 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

why? if they are easy to upgrade it should be easy right?

Have you used a old rack server? There not designed for a gpu. Low power pcie slots, no 16x slots. No pcie power cables.

 

4 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

how does a usb card make a system harder to use?

Anouther thing to plan out a buy. 

[desertcomputer]

1 minute ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

But why should i get that instead of something like a older i7 or i5? The i7 or i5 will be faster in most games. and desktop uses. 

 

Have you seen how expensive those good dual socket boards are these days? That one you listed is about 150 usd on ebay. For that price of that and cpu's I can get a new ryzen system that is supported and faster in games and most dekstop tasks.

 

Have you used a old rack server? There not designed for a gpu. Low power pcie slots, no 16x slots. No pcie power cables.

 

Anouther thing to plan out a buy. 

So true.

 

For a daily machine going server stuff is not really a good idea for most people, server parts is great for home servers/nas/router builds but not so great as main PC. 

[Ashleyyyy]

4 minutes ago, MrUnknownEMC said:

Cost and availability, in most case you could build ryzen system for a few dollars more

what do you think older server stuff costs? i can get a board, 2 quadcore Xeon's and 6gb of ram for €80. 

3 minutes ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

Have you seen how expensive those good dual socket boards are these days? That one you listed is about 150 usd on ebay. For that price of that and cpu's I can get a new ryzen system that is supported and faster in games and most dekstop tasks.

i found that specific board with 6gb of ram and two Xeon E5620's for €80. in fact, i bought it because that board is a lot better than what i have now, and i can sell those Xeon's and that ram after to get some of my money back. 

 

4 minutes ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

Have you used a old rack server? There not designed for a gpu. Low power pcie slots, no 16x slots. No pcie power cables.

i have, i own a few. i specifically said i'm not talking about those here.

[desertcomputer]

6 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

what do you think older server stuff costs? i can get a board, 2 quadcore Xeon's and 6gb of ram for €80. 

i found that specific board with 6gb of ram and two Xeon E5620's for €80. in fact, i bought it because that board is a lot better than what i have now, and i can sell those Xeon's and that ram after to get some of my money back. 

 

i have, i own a few. i specifically said i'm not talking about those here.

In Australia a used server board cost around 100-600 aud, depending what generation and usually there isn't much to choose from.

[Ashleyyyy]

1 minute ago, MrUnknownEMC said:

In Australia a used server board cost around 100-600 aud, depending what generation and usually there isn't much to choose from.

depending on the condition boards usually go for €30 to €50 here, unless it's a really good one or has special features...

[PlayStation 2]

1. Markets. Some may have an easy time finding used server shit, some may not. Europeans and Americans have their work cut out for them; Asians, Australians and Africans kinda don't.

2. Usefulness. Let's be honest, to a new user, server hardware is just making shit even more daunting than it needs to be, and when you may require specific shit to get server motherboards working in a non-server environment, it won't be that fun for the first timer or the newer ones.

3. Let's be honest here: getting new stuff is usually far less of a pain than it is to get used shit off of eBay.

[Crunchy Dragon]

Most people dislike the used market and prefer to buy everything new.

 

Server hardware is also underrated, most people to my knowledge don't usually fully grasp how good of a deal used server parts actually are.

Price/performance is wonderful, most of these Xeons aren't that different in performance to some i5/i7 chips.

 

2 minutes ago, MrUnknownEMC said:

In Australia a used server board cost around 100-600 aud, depending what generation and usually there isn't much to choose from.

Here in the States, the used market is pretty full of used server hardware. Data centers and others tend to upgrade their servers all at once, so the used market gets flooded with Xeons, boards, even complete systems every couple years.

[desertcomputer]

Just now, firelighter487 said:

depending on the condition boards usually go for €30 to €50 here, unless it's a really good one or has special features...

That why it depends on cost and availability, you might able to find cheap boards and cpu is your country.

 

The issues I have with suggesting new builders to buy parts from ebay/sellers there is just too much hassle and usually new parts performance way better for just a small amount more. In most case performance per dollar will be a bit more but not by a large amount, isn't it smarter to buy new with an actual upgradeability.

 

 

Also more cores/thread doesn't mean better performance. 

[NumLock21]

The reason is because server parts are proprietary. It's better off to buy new, for the support and new features.

[sillypenguin213]

Usually Xeon series have a lower frequency and weak single core performance. It would be good for gaming. 

[App4that]

I can buy old used T3500s with LGA1366 Xeons for 15 bucks US. They come with Quadro FX580s though, which are enough to display but not much else. Also don't have audio and the audio chipset in the board is not supported by most Linux distros post 10. 

 

Good news is for 15 bucks you have a solid platform with a non proprietary power supply. Though the included 525w 80+ silver should be enough for most. 

 

Go on Aliexpress and you can get a 6c/12t for under 30 bucks to throw in it, if you're looking for threads over clockspeed. 

 

I throw a 80mm fan on the passive stock cooler to lower temps to 60c at max load. 

[Ashleyyyy]

17 minutes ago, Crunchy Dragon said:

Most people dislike the used market and prefer to buy everything new.

i was kinda talking about people who buy used hardware anyway. 

17 minutes ago, Crunchy Dragon said:

Server hardware is also underrated, most people to my knowledge don't usually fully grasp how good of a deal used server parts actually are.

Price/performance is wonderful, most of these Xeons aren't that different in performance to some i5/i7 chips.

this exactly. you can get X5650's for €50 per cpu here, and those are 6 core, 12 thread at 2.6ghz... mine turbo up to 2.9. 

 

although turbo speed can depend on the board you have sometimes, Linus demonstrated that when he overclocked that crazy 56 core machine, his board had something in the BIOS which some boards don't have. 

 

17 minutes ago, Crunchy Dragon said:

Here in the States, the used market is pretty full of used server hardware. Data centers and others tend to upgrade their servers all at once, so the used market gets flooded with Xeons, boards, even complete systems every couple years.

the market here doesn't get flooded often, but you can get what you want if you're willing to wait a few weeks. or if you're lucky it's on here when you begin searching for it. 

 

15 minutes ago, MrUnknownEMC said:

The issues I have with suggesting new builders to buy parts from ebay/sellers there is just too much hassle and usually new parts performance way better for just a small amount more. In most case performance per dollar will be a bit more but not by a large amount, isn't it smarter to buy new with an actual upgradeability.

i'm taking about people who already buy used hardware. 

 

15 minutes ago, MrUnknownEMC said:

Also more cores/thread doesn't mean better performance. 

you can't argue that my system scores about 18000 to 20000 in geekbench multi-thread. 

https://browser.geekbench.com/v4/cpu/search?utf8=✓&q=X5650

(make sure the score says 12 core's, because those are dual-cpu. a single X5650 performs worse)

 

10 minutes ago, sillypenguin213 said:

Usually Xeon series have a lower frequency and weak single core performance.

this is true, but i find that i can get 60+ fps on Overwatch at 1080p ultra (antialiasing set to lower) with my 780Ti. it obviously depends on the game, but games have become more multi threaded in recent years. i'm not saying most older Xeon's are better for gaming than i7's, because they aren't, but it's not as bad as most people say. 

 

i think that's because the mainstream i7 now has 12 threads, so they have to optimize for that more. 

[Crunchy Dragon]

1 minute ago, firelighter487 said:

i'm not saying Xeon's are better for gaming than i7's, because they aren't

Some Xeons are essentially just an i7 without an iGPU, and therefore equal in performance.

 

Also much cheaper again, because of the used market here.

[Ashleyyyy]

Just now, Crunchy Dragon said:

Some Xeons are essentially just an i7 without an iGPU, and therefore equal in performance.

 

Also much cheaper again, because of the used market here.

yes some, but not the cheap one's we're talking about here. 

[NumLock21]

Not many people will want to waste time looking at use parts, when they can easily just buy them new. Also a new system will run rings around your dual Xeon in CineBench R15.

[sillypenguin213]

2 minutes ago, Crunchy Dragon said:

Some Xeons are essentially just an i7 without an iGPU, and therefore equal in performance.

 

Also much cheaper again, because of the used market here.

What about overclocking?