A disturbing trend

[aisle9]

I'd like to comment on something that I've seen more often lately, something of a fair deal of concern to me. I understand that when YouTubers are assembling builds either on a budget or as part of a challenge, cost limitations come into play. What I'm seeing happen more often, and I'll cite two instances in particular where it's stood out, is garbage-tier PSUs being put into tech-tuber builds. For example:

 

Bitwit's $500 Black Friday build: strapped for cash, Kyle grabbed a Logisys "80+ Gold 650W" PSU. He did so after commenting on a $15 Diablotek known to catch fire. Were there really no better options? I know how massive Micro Center is, I know they run some spectacular MIRs, and I know with complete certainty that had he been willing to go down a tier in case to something without four fans for his A320 motherboard, he could have gotten one with a bundled power supply. Is it likely to be much better than the Logisys? Not particularly, no, but maybe the real question then becomes should he have cut back elsewhere to afford even something as basic as a grey-label CX or 80+ White EVGA?

 

Science Studio's giveaway build: Ah, my favorite YouTuber, we meet again. When assembling a build on a budget for a giveaway, he went with a Zalman PSU he found for $20 that wasn't 80+ rated. I know, 80+ ratings are not indicative of quality, but the lack of any 80+ rating is indicative of a lack of quality. His logic in leaving that PSU in the build when giving it away (hell, and for using it in the first place) was that it's "good enough" for a low wattage build. Kyle justified his choice above the same way. "Good enough" for the wattage of the build.

 

Here's the problem with that approach. In Bitwit's case especially, that build is being presented as something people can go out, buy the parts for and build themselves. Is it responsible for a big-channel YouTubers to be giving potential PC builders who don't really know any better the idea that a PSU is "good enough"? Coming from the background of someone who's screwed around with all manner of Logisys, Apevia, Raidmax and Diablotek PSUs in the systems I've bought, I can tell you from experience that when they go, it's not like an HX600 peacefully breathing its last. It's a total, immediate system crash, sometimes accompanied by loud noises and wonderful smells. Your motherboard? Forget it. If it survives, I promise you it's damaged in some weird, random way that makes it more or less unusable. If it doesn't survive, well, that was quick. And other components can go with the PSU, too. Trust me, I have stories.

 

Other channels like Tech YES City and RandomGamingInHD will occasionally pull out a VS or a green-label CX, but that's the nature of their channels. They're not so much looking at reproduceable builds as they are throwing out ideas for what you can do on the used market. I seem to recall Linus and Luke at least considering a Thermaltake TR2 in an episode of Scrapyard Wars, but, again, Scrapyard Wars. Not a how-to guide.

 

The problem, for me, is that YouTubers who absolutely know better about such things are telling people in how-to guides and giveaway videos that using a Logisys arson box is fine if it leaves room in the budget for a GTX 1050 Ti, or for a nicer case. I know I'm picking on Kyle and Salazar in particular, but they're far from the only ones to do it. Austin's used some shady PSUs in his lower-budget builds, but again, there's always the disclaimer that you shouldn't use a crappy PSU for long. It's just "good enough" to get you started.

 

In the interest of not blowing out people's motherboards or causing them to go out and spend $30-60 more in a few months (or both), wouldn't it make more sense for tech channels to just use the right parts in the first place? I can't recall ever seeing a Paul build with a Zalman PSU in it, or a JayzTwoCents PC with a Logisys. Why? Because it's as bad an idea to recommend them--which is what tech channels are doing when they put them in how-to guides and giveaway builds--as it is to use them in the first place.

 

/rant

 

tl;dr - Big tech tube channels shouldn't be using crap PSUs in how-to and giveaway builds. It's going to get computers killed. Possibly people, if they leave a Logisys-powered system in P95 and walk away.

[LienusLateTips]

it's always been like this lol - Kyle is well known for putting s*** PSUs into expensive builds.

 

 

"700W EVGA N1 is good for your dual 1080 Ti system because it's cheap and has enough wattage" - BitWit probably said that sometime, sometime 2014-2017.

[STRMfrmXMN]

7 minutes ago, JDE said:

it's always been like this lol - Kyle is well known for putting s*** PSUs into expensive builds.

 

 

"700W EVGA N1 is good for your dual 1080 Ti system because it's cheap and has enough wattage" - BitWit probably said that sometime, sometime 2014-2017.

Yeah, I don't know where the mentality of "it has a name brand on it that I'm familiar with so therefor it's fine" comes from, but Kyle seems to embody that when choosing PSUs for systems. I vaguely remember him putting the 80+ EVGA unit in a system with a 1080Ti.

[DrMacintosh]

Sounds like you are over exaggerating to me. 

[WereCatf]

Are low-end PSUs much of a fire-hazard these days anyways? I have had a couple of mishaps with low-end PSUs, but those were years ago: in one PC all of a sudden the wires going from the PSU to the mobo started to melt, including the connector on the mobo -- scraping the soot off and prying the molten connector loose was interesting -- and in another build that I used as a server at the time the PSU caught on fire and started to literally spew flames everywhere -- I removed the HDDs as quickly as I could and threw the thing out of the window into snow outside (one HDD died completely, the PSU must have shot a spike in it) -- so I can understand the concern.

[aisle9]

37 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

Sounds like you are over exaggerating to me. 

How so? Others in this thread have already acknowledged that there's a problem with one channel in particular. If I'm lying somewhere, which is what exaggeration is, please point it out to me.

 

41 minutes ago, STRMfrmXMN said:

Yeah, I don't know where the mentality of "it has a name brand on it that I'm familiar with so therefor it's fine" comes from, but Kyle seems to embody that when choosing PSUs for systems. I vaguely remember him putting the 80+ EVGA unit in a system with a 1080Ti.

You'd think he'd be better about that, given where he worked and who he worked with.

 

Of course, working at Newegg might actually condition someone to believe that all Corsair PSUs are amazing, especially the ones that last for six months.

[DrMacintosh]

Just now, aisle9 said:

How so? Others in this thread have already acknowledged that there's a problem with one channel in particular. If I'm lying somewhere, which is what exaggeration is, please point it out to me.

Who said you are lying? 

 

All I'm saying is that its not as big of an issue as you think it might be. 

[aisle9]

Just now, DrMacintosh said:

Who said you are lying? 

 

All I'm saying is that its not as big of an issue as you think it might be. 

If I were someone thinking about building a gaming PC and I came across a guy with a million subs who spent $25 on a Logisys and said that it was "good enough", I'd probably wish he'd recommended something different when my PC pops six months down the line.

[Guest]

Fact of the matter is, most YouTubers are as ignorant as the average consumer.  They see "650W".. they see "$15" and assume it's a good deal.

 

It's expensive to have the right equipment to test PSUs and it takes a bit more know how than "I can buildz PC me master race".

 

They have no clue that a cheap PSU is NOT going to put out it's advertised power and that if/when it blows up it's likely to take out half the PC with it.

 

[DrMacintosh]

Just now, aisle9 said:

If I were someone thinking about building a gaming PC and I came across a guy with a million subs who spent $25 on a Logisys and said that it was "good enough", I'd probably wish he'd recommended something different when my PC pops six months down the line.

You are probably right but I feel that the general view of this forum towards PSUs is extremely critical and that anything that isn't top of the top is just going to explode and take your whole house with it. 

[LienusLateTips]

4 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

You are probably right but I feel that the general view of this forum towards PSUs is extremely critical and that anything that isn't top of the top is just going to explode and take your whole house with it. 

No, but these people are using Logisys and no 80+ rating units on top end hardware.

[Tabs]

5 minutes ago, aisle9 said:

How so? Others in this thread have already acknowledged that there's a problem with one channel in particular. If I'm lying somewhere, which is what exaggeration is, please point it out to me.

Exaggeration is specifically *not* lying. It's either the over-focus on one thing to make a point, or ignoring of contributing factors to make a point, or putting too much focus on a negative that has a low chance (or no chance) of being replicated in a real world scenario. What you say isn't wrong, it just isn't necessarily accurate anymore, mainly thanks to revisions in the ATX spec.

 

I would have agreed with you if this was still 2007. I will still try to make sure people buy reputable, certified products from manufacturers I trust when they ask me for purchasing advice. But to say that people are wrong for doing so? I don't think so.

 

For a PSU to even be ATX compliant, it has to adhere to the spec. Any ATX 2.31 or 2.4 PSU - regardless of efficiency factor or whether it was tested/certified by 80+ will perform very, very well in modern computers, because the spec dictates how much filtering and regulation the individual rails must adhere to in order to be compliant. That guarantees a lower boundary on the quality of the components used in the design.

 

The 80+ certification costs $2000 per model plus $1000 signup fee. If a manufacturer spits out 30 models in a year that's $61,000 they have to pay that could instead be saved by the customer from having the supplies not tested, even if they COULD pass. A manufacturer like Logisys might have to sell 1000 PSUs to actually make that $2000 back, and do you seriously consider that a reasonable expense for a number?

 

Something to think about.

[Stefan Payne]

Its the same everywhere:
Powersupply does only Power, does not do FPS; thus utterly unimportant.

 

And then this happens:

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/26/exploding_computer_vs_reg_reader/

 

Or the system is unstable...

 

 

That's why people in the early 2000s bashed AMD so much:
Socket 7 Cooler and crappiest Powersupply (Codegen and co) used, cheap no name memory that still existed at the time and was defective in the shop and wondering why the thing didn't work stable...

 

Things haven't changed in 20 years, sadly...

And most 'System Integrator' still wish for the worst of the worst of the Powersupplys. They _WANT_ something that explodes after the warranty is over and kills the PC - because then the people have to buy a new one.

[aisle9]

29 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

You are probably right but I feel that the general view of this forum towards PSUs is extremely critical and that anything that isn't top of the top is just going to explode and take your whole house with it. 

True for some, perhaps, but my workshop is covered in EVGA 80+ white units. I wouldn't run them at their rated max wattage all the time (in fact, I know that the 600W 80+ can't even get to 600W), but when slapped into a build with an i5-6500 and a GTX 960, they're fine. I'm ashamed to admit that I actually own a Logisys "480W" PSU, which the label readily admits is only capable of 330W, from when I bought that stupid Logisys case. I've used it for testing old hardware a time or two, but otherwise it sits in my desk drawer waiting for its Viking funeral.

 

There are a lot of crap-tier PSUs out there that will absolutely murder your system if given enough time or power draw. Far, far more than there are good units. There are lots of middle-of-the-road units too, that you don't want to hook into an SLI setup running an overclocked 8700K, but they're fine for an cheapo Overwatch rig running a 1300X and a 1050 Ti. Those units, like the EVGA 80+ white, are the ones that I agree tend to be judged too harshly here. The issue here isn't that we're being hard on them for using mid-tier PSUs. It's that they're putting $25 Logisys PSUs into builds that they intend to give away or for others to duplicate. It's not a question of the PSU being appropriate for the system, like it would be with the 80+ white. It's a question of whether or not you've just told someone to go out and spend $25 on a PSU that will wipe the other $475 they spent off the map.

 

22 minutes ago, Tabs said:

The 80+ certification costs $2000 per model plus $1000 signup fee. If a manufacturer spits out 30 models in a year that's $61,000 they have to pay that could instead be saved by the customer from having the supplies not tested, even if they COULD pass. A manufacturer like Logisys might have to sell 1000 PSUs to actually make that $2000 back, and do you seriously consider that a reasonable expense for a number?

 

Something to think about.

You're forgetting the prebuilt/bundled market. That's where a lot of Logisys/Diamond (Diablotek) PSUs end up.

 

And again, 80+ certification says nothing about build quality. It only has to do with power efficiency. Trust me, there are lots of 80+ and above units that are garbage inside. And if a manufacturer has to sell 1,000 PSUs to make $2,000...they should probably just close up shop. Or raise their price.

[Tabs]

Just now, aisle9 said:

You're forgetting the prebuilt/bundled market. That's where a lot of Logisys/Diamond (Diablotek) PSUs end up.

 

And again, 80+ certification says nothing about build quality. It only has to do with power efficiency. Trust me, there are lots of 80+ and above units that are garbage inside. And if a manufacturer has to sell 1,000 PSUs to make $2,000...they should probably just close up shop. Or raise their price.

I'm not forgetting that market AT ALL. It further reinforces my point. People who NEVER open their pc and for whom "80+" is just a number, will never, ever see the difference between the exact same PSU whether it has been certified or not, but they will notice if - after OEM overhead - that machine is $10 more expensive for having had the pcu certified. Or $30-$40 more expensive to go with a "recommended" PSU from a tech site.

 

If a manufacturer who sells a PSU for $25 where the BoM is $12 or so (likely), the cost of manufacture, distribution and (if any) advertising is a good chunk of the $13 left... do you seriously think an extra $2-3 per unit is going to be acceptable to them for the purpose of marketing?

 

You need to understand the whole picture when you make sweeping statements like this. I'm saying your sweeping statement is wrong, even though it has (in the past, and in certain scenarios) been right. I would be very interested in a reputable third party running the same 80+ tests on one of these PSUs (as documented in great detail here).

[aisle9]

3 minutes ago, Tabs said:

I would be very interested in a reputable third party running the same 80+ tests on one of these PSUs (as documented in great detail here).

You mean someone like @jonnyGURU?

 

Jonny, what would your thoughts be on a Logisys 650W 80+ Gold unit and a Zalman 600W unit with no 80+ rating?

[Tabs]

9 minutes ago, aisle9 said:

You mean someone like @jonnyGURU?

 

Jonny, what would your thoughts be on a Logisys 650W 80+ Gold unit and a Zalman 600W unit with no 80+ rating?

No, I don't mean a random member of an internet forum. I mean a reputable publication that has ready access to the same high end hardware used in the document I linked, and the ability to provide an unbiased report.

 

Edit: For what it's worth, I would much prefer the 650W gold rated PSU, but unfortunately Logisys don't submit their PSUs for testing, which makes it a loaded question and therefore not really worth answering.

 

Edit2: I checked again, and they have submitted some supplies for 115V testing but not 230/240V testing. I was looking at the wrong list, so my bad there.

[Stefan Payne]

3 minutes ago, Tabs said:

 

21 minutes ago, Tabs said:

For a PSU to even be ATX compliant, it has to adhere to the spec. Any ATX 2.31 or 2.4 PSU - regardless of efficiency factor or whether it was tested/certified by 80+ will perform very, very well in modern computers, because the spec dictates how much filtering and regulation the individual rails must adhere to in order to be compliant. That guarantees a lower boundary on the quality of the components used in the design.

In theory, yes.

In reality: no

There are a couple of PSU out there that give a damn about any spec, safety thing or whatever.

And that's the cheapest of the cheap that are out of spec when you switch it on.

 

21 minutes ago, Tabs said:

The 80+ certification costs $2000 per model plus $1000 signup fee. If a manufacturer spits out 30 models in a year that's $61,000 they have to pay that could instead be saved by the customer from having the supplies not tested, even if they COULD pass. A manufacturer like Logisys might have to sell 1000 PSUs to actually make that $2000 back, and do you seriously consider that a reasonable expense for a number?

 

Something to think about.

1. No Company (regularly) puts out 30 models per year. 

1b: It depends on what you are doing. And if the manufacturer has already certified it.

If youuse a standard model from a manufacturer like CWT, Sirfa and co, things are completely different and way cheaper.

 

So the price you are mentioning only applies to somewhat custom made units!

As the price might be true, it's something thats in the R&D budget and only paid once throughout the lifetime of the unit. And normally we are talking about something like 50-150k per model. 

Does it really matter in this regard?!
That means that we have 2000€ for this one model but its sold 20.000 times -> around 10 Cent per Unit over the lifetime.

And that's a rather conservative estimate...

 

 

2. All somewhat decent units I've seen so far are 80plus certified.

I haven't seen any somewhat honestly advertized unit that isn't 80plus certified.

Especially since they introduced the 230VAC Consumer certification.

Before that it could have been the case, but since then, no.

 

Only ones that wouldn't be able to get certified is all I see at the moment...

[Tabs]

7 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

1. No Company (regularly) puts out 30 models per year. 

1b: It depends on what you are doing. And if the manufacturer has already certified it.

If youuse a standard model from a manufacturer like CWT, Sirfa and co, things are completely different and way cheaper.

Please read the certification guidelines for the 80+ scheme. 5 different wattage values of the same supply requires 5 different certifications, and 5 different payments to certify those 5 different supplies. They don't certify "a brand", they certify "a specific psu". 

 

There are way, way more than 30 different PSUs per year from big brands like Corsair, when you remember that each different wattage tier needs separate certification.

 

Edit (for clarity on point 1b): Again, read the requirements. A rebranded PSU from a grey box manufacturer that someone like, say, EVGA decides to slap their name on, *HAS TO BE RECERTIFIED AT COST TO EVGA* in order to be considered 80+ certified. There are no free rides here man.

[aisle9]

14 minutes ago, Tabs said:

No, I don't mean a random member of an internet forum. I mean a reputable publication that has ready access to the same high end hardware used in the document I linked, and the ability to provide an unbiased report.

http://www.jonnyguru.com/

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Tabs said:

No, I don't mean a random member of an internet forum. I mean a reputable publication that has ready access to the same high end hardware used in the document I linked, and the ability to provide an unbiased report.

Derp.  I dunno. Derp.  What's a powder surpply?

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Tabs said:

Please read the certification guidelines for the 80+ scheme. 5 different wattage values of the same supply requires 5 different certifications, and 5 different payments to certify those 5 different supplies. They don't certify "a brand", they certify "a specific psu". 

 

There are way, way more than 30 different PSUs per year from big brands like Corsair, when you remember that each different wattage tier needs separate certification.

 

Edit (for clarity on point 1b): Again, read the requirements. A rebranded PSU from a grey box manufacturer that someone like, say, EVGA decides to slap their name on, *HAS TO BE RECERTIFIED AT COST TO EVGA* in order to be considered 80+ certified. There are no free rides here man.

80 PLUS is useless.  Not only is it a certification only for efficiency and not ability (look at their testing methodology.  Proper PSU reviewers do a more thorough job).

 

At least Cybenetics try to do a better job by testing at higher temperatures.

 

But it's not unusual for the unit that gets submitted to 80 PLUS to be COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than what's sold to the public.  That's because 80 PLUS is a private company and not a governing body and has no legal recourse.   It's not like a PSU company submitting a PSU to TÜV for certification and then shipping another product not tested by TÜV bearing the TÜV logo.

 

[Tabs]

3 minutes ago, jonnyGURU said:

80 PLUS is useless.  Not only is it a certification only for efficiency and not ability (look at their testing methodology.  Proper PSU reviewers do a more thorough job).

 

At least Cybenetics try to do a better job by testing at higher temperatures.

 

But it's not unusual for the unit that gets submitted to 80 PLUS to be COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than what's sold to the public.  That's because 80 PLUS is a private company and not a governing body and has no legal recourse.   It's not like a PSU company submitting a PSU to TÜV for certification and then shipping another product not tested by TÜV bearing the TÜV logo.

 

I'm sorry for bruising your ego for having never heard of you mate. I'm basing my opinion on your ability to do this on the fact that you necroed a 6 hour dead thread earlier to quote me on corsair PSUs, basically discovered that we agreed the same thing, and then abandoned it when I pointed out the confusing nature of Corsair's power supply details on their site that I mentioned originally.

 

Not that this is in any way relevant to the original post in this thread - It's obvious you didn't post it (@aisle9) in order to find opinions on the matter, you just wanted people to agree with you. I'm done giving an alternate opinion to someone who clearly doesn't want one.

[Damascus]

1 hour ago, DrMacintosh said:

Who said you are lying? 

 

All I'm saying is that its not as big of an issue as you think it might be. 

@Princess Cadence has a friend recently blow an 850w $15 psu with 2 980 ti’s.  Put an ultra low end psu in a high end rig and it will explode 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Tabs said:

I'm sorry for bruising your ego for having never heard of you mate. I'm basing my opinion on your ability to do this on the fact that you necroed a 6 hour dead thread earlier to quote me on corsair PSUs, basically discovered that we agreed the same thing, and then abandoned it when I pointed out the confusing nature of Corsair's power supply details on their site that I mentioned originally.

 

Not that this is in any way relevant to the original post in this thread - It's obvious you didn't post it (@aisle9) in order to find opinions on the matter, you just wanted people to agree with you. I'm done giving an alternate opinion to someone who clearly doesn't want one.

My ego's not bruised.  It only lends to the fact that you may not know what you're talking about when it comes to PSUs.

 

And I didn't abandon that thread.  I have the last response.  Where 6+2 PCIe connectors tend to be the de-facto standard, your argument was that Corsair didn't specify that the connectors were 6+2.  To with, I responded that they didn't say they were just 6-pin either.

 

As for responding 6 hours later:  Sorry.  I have a life.  I'm not going to respond to every post as soon as they come.

 

In conclusion:  You're devil's advocate.  I get it.  You want to hold an opposing opinion regardless of the information available or your own lack of knowledge.  I do the same sometimes when I'm intentionally trolling people.  Just this time, it's not working.