[added analysis] October Steam survey: Windows 10 loses 17.3% market share, Windows 7 gains 23.7% market share

[Mooshi]

I would rather convert to OS X than switch back to 7

[leadeater]

24 minutes ago, laminutederire said:

You'e useless in this argument. No one cares what you think. If you want others to give you objective reasons, you have to be objective as well or you're useless.

Might want to be slightly more tactful in wording, generally not a good idea to be calling people useless so directly like that.

[laminutederire]

30 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Might want to be slightly more tactful in wording, generally not a good idea to be calling people useless so directly like that.

Yeah I know, but it's not like he has dismissed in objectively everything everyone has said to him. So what's the point at the end? I had stronger wording at the beginning, but if it remains too strong for the forum I can change it. It didn't felt like an insult but more as a critism on his willingness to accept our arguments rationally..

(I edited it to be less aggessive, but the point remains)

[leadeater]

6 minutes ago, laminutederire said:

Yeah I know, but it's not like he has dismissed in objectively everything everyone has said to him. So what's the point at the end? I had stronger wording at the beginning, but if it remains too strong for the forum I can change it. It didn't felt like an insult but more as a critism on his willingness to accept our arguments rationally..

I don't think it's much of an issue, someone could take it the wrong way but I know what the general intent/statement that was being made was.

[mr moose]

57 minutes ago, laminutederire said:

 

No one cares what you think as preferences. If you want others to give you objective reasons, you have to be objective as well or you're not participating in the same conversation as others.

 

An conclusion drawn without rational consideration cannot be effected by a rational argument. 

[laminutederire]

2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

An conclusion drawn without rational consideration cannot be effected by a rational argument. 

Yes I know... but I hope one day he will understand it. Because so far to demonstrate the superiority of w7 we have had : crack software, heavily modify registries and go to Linux... i particularily like the last one, funniest one of the bunch. Issue is that polarizes the community, since facing a guy like that you kinda have to ignore what you personally think ate negatives of w10, otherwise he won't listen at all... so you end up in confrontation and not discussion which isn't good and useful.

[Hellion]

On 11/8/2017 at 1:21 AM, leadeater said:

Off this particular topic, you can't call a 3rd party application you have to install an OS feature. If you're talking about Windows 7 vs Windows 10 and asking for feature differences bringing non OS features in to that doesn't count, that's just goalpost shifting. I mean this specifically when talking about OS features which is what you asked to be named.

Actually I can because if a feature is available on Windows 7, even if via a third party then there's no benefit in switching to 10. Especially when, as I had already previously mentioned, many of the third party programs do it better then what windows 10 has attempted to.

 

Just because a later build of 10 has incorporated something from third party software doesn’t make it a benefit and that is magnified once you take into consideration the many other issues. This is more or less the breaking point. To date 10 offers nothing that can't be done on 7 that outweighs the negatives.

 

You are focusing on only a single point rather then looking at the big picture.

 

 

On 11/8/2017 at 1:30 AM, leadeater said:

With the change to how updates are delivered just installing a single rollup update after the date telemetry was added in to Windows 7 means you have it, the only way to not have it is to never update Windows 7 past that date which isn't a good idea. People do it, doesn't make it a good decision though but what ever not my problem.

How many of these rollups actually contain security fixes that aren't directly related to user error?

 

Just because microshaft chooses to further idiot proof a OS doesn't mean the update is actually necessary.

 

The most critical of these recent updates was the KB4012212 for the wannacry exploit and that was individually issued outside of a rollup.

 

So your statement isn't always true.

 

On 11/8/2017 at 1:42 AM, mr moose said:

wow, going to the point of promoting/relying on using cracked software in order to prove 7 is better than 10.  How do you people manage normal life? you know bills and reality and stuff?

I'm not promoting anything. I mentioned that cracked versions are available because I know that his next argument to suggesting a piece of software that costs a couple of dollars would be that it's not free.

 

But by all means continue with your straw man argument when it's clearly available directly from the developer.........

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, Hellion said:

I'm not promoting anything. I mentioned that cracked versions are available because I know that his next argument to suggesting a piece of software that costs a couple of dollars would be that it's not free.

 

But by all means continue with your straw man argument when it's clearly available directly from the developer.........

I don't think you know what a straw man argument is.  You literally said you can get a third party app, and hacked even, to make up for a feature lacking in 7.   

[leadeater]

16 minutes ago, Hellion said:

How many of these rollups actually contain security fixes that aren't directly related to user error?

Wannacry and all other known and exploitable SMB1 and SMB2 exploits, plus more that would take a while to find. Microsoft doesn't release security patches for the fun of it.

 

16 minutes ago, Hellion said:

The most critical of these recent updates was the KB4012212 for the wannacry exploit and that was individually issued outside of a rollup.

Edit: Sorry no, didn't read it properly. KB4012215 is the rollup.

[Hellion]

On 11/8/2017 at 2:40 AM, laminutederire said:

Yeah I know, but it's not like he has dismissed in objectively everything everyone has said to him. So what's the point at the end? I had stronger wording at the beginning, but if it remains too strong for the forum I can change it. It didn't felt like an insult but more as a critism on his willingness to accept our arguments rationally..

(I edited it to be less aggessive, but the point remains)

Rational would be either providing a list of what I requested or admitting you were wrong in coming to the defence of another user that had no idea what he was talking about.

 

It's alright though, I'm not offended by the petty antics you've stooped to. I'm a big boy and there's no need to make edits.

 

On 11/8/2017 at 3:20 AM, mr moose said:

I don't think you know what a straw man argument is.  You literally said you can get a third party app, and hacked even, to make up for a feature lacking in 7.   

I did but rather then focusing on the fact that I mentioned the program as the main context you decide to make an agenda out of the secondary point that you can get it for free. That's creating an argument that doesn't exist because that wasn't the intended purpose of my statement, hence the straw man.

 

On 11/8/2017 at 3:21 AM, leadeater said:

Wannacry and all other known and exploitable SMB1 and SMB2 exploits, plus more that would take a while to find. Microsoft doesn't release security patches for the fun of it.

 

That KB is a rollup, https://www.catalog.update.microsoft.com/search.aspx?q=4012212

Might have gotten the number wrong. It's been issued individually as well.

 

EDIT: I see you edited your post and my initial statement remains true.

[mr moose]

Just now, Hellion said:

I did but rather then focusing on the fact that I mentioned the program as the main context you decide to make an agenda out of the secondary point that you can get it for free. That's creating an argument that doesn't exist because that wasn't the intended purpose of my statement, hence the straw man.

But it's not an argument that doesn't exist.  You said it in plain text. I was referring to a point you actually made.  It cannot be a strawman argument by the very definition of strawman argument. 

 

Quote

Description: Substituting a person’s actual position or argument with a distorted, exaggerated, or misrepresented version of the position of the argument.

You have a very thin grasp on your own arguments if you think I did that.

 

source:

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/169/Strawman-Fallacy

[leadeater]

3 minutes ago, Hellion said:

That KB is also available individually..............

Yea sorry see edit, refresh page for it.

 

Also contained in a lot of the security updates are non disclosed fixes, if you have Premier Support Agreement you get advanced notification of security patches and extra details on them.

 

Here is this months list of security fixes, I can't give any more info than this.

Quote

Security Vulnerability Overview

 

Below is a summary showing the number of vulnerabilities addressed in this release, broken down by product/component and by impact.

 

Vulnerability Details (1)	RCE	EOP	ID	SFB	DOS	SPF	Publicly Disclosed	Known Exploit	Max CVSS
Windows 10 1703	9	4	8	4	2	0	1	0	8.1
Windows 10 1607 & Server 2016	9	5	8	4	1	0	0	0	8.1
Windows 10 1511	9	4	8	4	1	0	0	0	8.1
Windows 10 RTM	9	4	9	4	1	0	0	0	8.1
Windows 8.1 & Server 2012 R2	8	4	8	2	1	0	0	0	8.1
Windows Server 2012	8	2	8	1	1	0	0	0	8.1
Windows 7 & Server 2008 R2	8	3	8	0	1	0	0	0	8.1
Windows Server 2008	7	3	8	0	1	0	0	0	8.1
Internet Explorer	4	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	7.5
Microsoft Edge	15	0	2	0	0	0	0	0	4.3
Office	2	0	1	1	0	0	1	1	NA (2)
SharePoint	1	3	0	0	0	0	2	1	NA (2)
Microsoft Lync & Skype for Business	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	NA (2)
ChakraCore	14	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	NA (2)
RCE = Remote Code Execution | EOP = Elevation of Privilege | ID = Information Disclosure SFB = Security Feature Bypass | DOS = Denial of Service | SPF = Spoofing

Source: My email inbox

 

Take note of the publicly disclosed column 

[Hellion]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

But it's not an argument that doesn't exist.  You said it in plain text. I was referring to a point you actually made.  It cannot be a strawman argument by the very definition of strawman argument. 

 

You have a very thin grasp on your own arguments if you think I did that.

 

source:

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/169/Strawman-Fallacy

Looks like a creditable source you pulled there..... haha...

 

The main point was a software suggestion. I'm not promoting the cracked version but rather simply mentioned it because I knew he would cry about a couple of dollars when he's most likely already spent money on the windows 10 "upgrade"

 

Keep reaching though since it's clear you have nothing of value to add here.

[mr moose]

9 minutes ago, Hellion said:

Looks like a creditable source you pulled there..... haha...

 

The main point was a software suggestion. I'm not promoting the cracked version but rather simply mentioned it because I knew he would cry about a couple of dollars when he's most likely already spent money on the windows 10 "upgrade"

 

Keep reaching though since it's clear you have nothing of value to add here.

That's probably the weakest acceptance of being wrong I have seen in a while.

 

All that aside, I do not feel the need to convince others that their preference for an OS is wrong, much less introducing weak reasoning to do so.  That was the "main point" in my initial post.   It is a futile argument that gains nothing for anyone other than feigned mitigation of whatever perceived injustice you think win 10 has bought on the world.

 

EDIT: or in simpler words,  if you think 7 is better then all the power to you, but constantly debating why others should feel the same when clearly they do not, is not only pointless but only shows a real lack of understanding.   The value I have to add to this discussion is to point out how childish it is to argue that others experiences and preferences are some how wrong because you don't like them.

[Hellion]

5 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Yea sorry see edit, refresh page for it.

 

Also contained in a lot of the security updates are non disclosed fixes, if you have Premier Support Agreement you get advanced notification of security patches and extra details on them.

 

Here is this months list of security fixes, I can't give any more info than this.

Source: My email inbox

 

Take note of the publicly disclosed column 

I see one entry that would directly affect Windows 7 listed. Since you mention you can't provide any further details and I'm not going to bother putting in an hours worth of searching to find out exactly what it details, I'm willing to bet that like many of the "security" fixes it more then likely has to do with preventing code execution after a user has made the error of opening a malicious file.

 

Now, I'm not advocating that windows 7 is invincible by any means but the "up to date" argument is clearly over exaggerated when the majority of these fixes are to prevent a problem caused by a users dumb decision.

[leadeater]

8 minutes ago, Hellion said:

I see one entry that would directly affect Windows 7 listed. Since you mention you can't provide any further details and I'm not going to bother putting in an hours worth of searching to find out exactly what it details, I'm willing to bet that like many of the "security" fixes it more then likely has to do with preventing code execution after a user has made the error of opening a malicious file.

 

Now, I'm not advocating that windows 7 is invincible by any means but the "up to date" argument is clearly over exaggerated when the majority of these fixes are to prevent a problem caused by a users dumb decision.

How do you come to 1? There are 8 Remote Code Execution vulnerabilities and 3 Elevation of Privilege vulnerabilities, the most serious kinds possible.

 

Edit:

Also remote means no user required.

[Hellion]

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

How do you come to 1? There are 8 Remote Code Execution vulnerabilities and 3 Elevation of Privilege vulnerabilities, the most serious kinds possible.

I'm tlaking windows 7 specific. I don't care about other versions when I don't run that OS.

[NelizMastr]

Gamers aren't missing much when they're running 7 or 8.1. Relevant DX12 exclusives can be counted on one hand and Vulkan has turned out to be the superior API, draw call wise.

[leadeater]

4 minutes ago, Hellion said:

I'm tlaking windows 7 specific. I don't care about other versions when I don't run that OS.

Those are listed in the column for Windows 7 & Server 2008 R2, they apply to those operating systems. It's still not clear to me how you got 1 from that?

[Hellion]

6 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Those are listed in the column for Windows 7 & Server 2008 R2, they apply to those operating systems. It's still not clear to me how you got 1 from that?

You're right, I was looking at the wrong column.

 

Until we know more details about what these are it doesn't really mean much though.

 

Like I said, granted that I've actually sat and picked through 300+ updates when initially installing 7 for a dual boot 90% aren't necessary unless you're a fool.

[NelizMastr]

6 minutes ago, Hellion said:

Like I said, granted that I've actually sat and picked through 300+ updates when initially installing 7 for a dual boot 90% aren't necessary unless you're a fool.

That's a bold statement. Often people say that a healthy state of mind is the best kind of protection, but the real world shows that even the most careful users get hit by malware and exploits at some point. Patching is a necessity.

 

Those 300 updates are already less than they released for that OS initially. Plenty of updates superseded others, so be glad you don't have to install every single update ever put out

[leadeater]

5 minutes ago, Hellion said:

Like I said, granted that I've actually sat and picked through 300+ updates when initially installing 7 for a dual boot 90% aren't necessary unless your are a fool.

I wouldn't be so confident of that 90%, an RCE almost always means no user interaction required.

 

Plus even IT experts screw up more than you'd think, also I tend to find people that complain about unstable operating system releases or patches breaking their system the fault stems from the user not the OS or the update. It's not uncommon for the root cause of an update breaking a system was from it already being broken in a less visible way or being ignored by the user.

 

We recently had around 8 servers get broken after patching, the fault was not the update it was 3rd party software and mis-configuration that caused system files to get modified when they shouldn't which broke basically everything. If you leave Windows alone and only ever apply updates to it the chances of it breaking is less than winning lotto, that's not to say Microsoft doesn't release bad patches since that does happen and recently too.

[NelizMastr]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

I tend to find people that complain about unstable operating system releases or patches breaking their system the fault stems from the user not the OS or the update. It's not uncommon for the root cause of an update breaking a system was from it already being broken in a less visible way or being ignored by the user.

Generally speaking, you're right. However, there have been some exceptions to this rule and a few of them took place in the past 6 months. For instance, the june cumulative quality update wrecked the search indexer on W7 and W10 clients, rendering Outlook search inoperable. This was fixed 3 weeks later. In August, an Outlook 2007 update was pushed which changed the UI language to Swedish because of a mislabeled update entering the channel. Again, fixed a few weeks later. In september, HP systems were hit with a black screen on startup after an update, because it broke a service. 

 

That's quite a few cock-ups in a few months time, and it did affect a good few of our customers. Easy fixes and workarounds, surely, but this pretty much never occured a few years ago. 

[Hellion]

14 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I wouldn't be so confident of that 90%, an RCE almost always means no user interaction required.

 

Plus even IT experts screw up more than you'd think, also I tend to find people that complain about unstable operating system releases or patches breaking their system the fault stems from the user not the OS or the update. It's not uncommon for the root cause of an update breaking a system was from it already being broken in a less visible way or being ignored by the user.

 

We recently had around 8 servers get broken after patching, the fault was not the update it was 3rd party software and mis-configuration that caused system files to get modified when they shouldn't which broke basically everything. If you leave Windows alone and only ever apply updates to it the chances of it breaking is less than winning lotto, that's not to say Microsoft doesn't release bad patches since that does happen and recently too.

Don't know if I believe that.

 

From my understanding microshaft has changed models to essentially have users almost exclusively test all their builds rather then doing it themselves to cut costs. This would lead me to believe system instability and incompatibility issues that break things aren't entirely the users fault. One of the main reasons for the shit ton of telemetry that's now present.

 

I'm not saying that's always the case but there's no reason why a new build of the same kernel should change what worked perfectly fine with the previous one.

 

 

 

[leadeater]

On 11/8/2017 at 4:17 AM, Hellion said:

I'm advocating that people grow a pair and draw a line when enough is enough. There will never be a reason that validates an invasion of privacy much less choosing to give it away to a corporation to profit on.

Well not to start a debate over it because I don't want to, Windows telemetry data is no where near as bad as people try and claim it as nor is it personally identifiable either. Taking a stance against it is fine, I just don't think serves in any way to make out that something doing something it is not or to over state somethings effects or impacts better convey a point.

 

If something is bad enough to warrant people not using it simply stating exactly what it is doing should be enough.

 

One point I have seen raised by some people that is a good example would be advertising inbuilt in to certain parts of Windows and native Windows applications, that's just annoying.

 

Anyway off topic so discussion best left for elsewhere.

 

On 11/8/2017 at 4:24 AM, NelizMastr said:

Generally speaking, you're right. However, there have been some exceptions to this rule and a few of them took place in the past 6 months. For instance, the june cumulative quality update wrecked the search indexer on W7 and W10 clients, rendering Outlook search inoperable. This was fixed 3 weeks later. In August, an Outlook 2007 update was pushed which changed the UI language to Swedish because of a mislabeled update entering the channel. Again, fixed a few weeks later. In september, HP systems were hit with a black screen on startup after an update, because it broke a service. 

 

That's quite a few cock-ups in a few months time, and it did affect a good few of our customers. Easy fixes and workarounds, surely, but this pretty much never occured a few years ago. 

I think you missed this part 

 

On 11/8/2017 at 4:16 AM, leadeater said:

that's not to say Microsoft doesn't release bad patches since that does happen and recently too.