ISP wants to censor the internet: Canadian edition.

[Hellion]

1 hour ago, Mooshi said:

Doesn't Canada have a broken economy that should probably be a higher priority than someone watching Game Of Thrones online?

Unfortunately,  the prime minster has prioritized looking pretty in selfies over actually accomplishing any political agenda of merit.

[AshleyAshes]

10 minutes ago, Hellion said:

The Canadian dollar lost over 30 cents to the US in just over 2 years and is having trouble rebounding past the 80 cent plateau. Clearly you don't live in the prairies where jobs were lost by the thousands, are still struggling to be created and people have been out of work for so long many are losing employment insurance benefits.

 

Pretty ignorant comment if I've ever seen one. You must live out east. The general population out there is pretty oblivious to what goes on past the Ontario border.

The Canadian economy is primarily an export economy and the dollar being cheaper than the US dollar is actually a good thing.  When the US Economy was going sideways and the Canadian dollar was worth more than the US Dollar, this created a huge burden for the Canadian economy. (Of course, so was the United State's own weakened buying power as a result of all that sidewaysness).  The general 'sweet spot' is somewhere around .75 to the US dollar, though that's a pretty rough metric.  But, in short, you can't use the difference between the US and Canadian dollar as an indicator of a nation's financial health.

 

As for the prairies, I assume you're talking about the price of Oil tanking due to a glut in global oil production which ended the oil boom that had been going on for the last 15 years or so.  In the end, what do you want?  The government to somehow magically increase the price of a barrel of oil on the global market and fire up tar sands to full blast again?  That's not realistic and it is quite honestly beyond the control of any one government.  It's also not an indicator of a failing economy, it's a particular part of the resource industry seeing reduced market prices and a drop in demand as a result.  This unfortunately happens over time in all sectors as declines and rises move through an economy.  Overall however, Canada's economy is pretty healthy.

 

Also, and this is critical: Governments are capable of doing multiple things at once.  Because governments consist of many arms and agencies staffed many many people, allowing a government to execute a near uncountable number of tasks at once.

[mr moose]

20 minutes ago, Hellion said:

The Canadian dollar lost over 30 cents to the US in just over 2 years and is having trouble rebounding past the 80 cent plateau. Clearly you don't live in the prairies where jobs were lost by the thousands, are still struggling to be created and people have been out of work for so long many are losing employment insurance benefits.

 

Pretty ignorant comment if I've ever seen one. You must live out east. The general population out there are oblivious to what goes on past the Ontario border.

Actually for the economy type that is Canada's, dropping below 80c in the dollar is just coming back to a standard figure. Over the last 25 years the Canadian dollar would have spent half it's time below 80c only going above during the early 2005 boom and the 2008 US economy crash.

 

Most countries like Canada (Australia for example) are bigger exporters than the US,  Which means you probably would have had more job losses during the US crash (because the US makes up 70 odd% of your exports which by itself accounts for more than 30% of your GDP not too mention all the investments that went into negative interest). 

[AshleyAshes]

18 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Most countries like Canada (Australia for example) are bigger exporters than the US,  Which means you probably would have had more job losses during the US crash (because the US makes up 70 odd% of your exports which by itself accounts for more than 30% of your GDP not too mention all the investments that went into negative interest). 

I mean, from the narrow personal perspective, a strong Canadian dollar seems great.  I won't deny enjoying online shopping when our dollar was stronger than the US dollar, but in the larger scope it wasn't a good thing.  In my industry, the film industry, it's our highly competitive dollar that us a major factor that brings billions of US film production dollars here.  While I don't work in any natural resource industry, that same dollar advantage works there as well or for much anything else that we export.

[mr moose]

16 minutes ago, AshleyAshes said:

I mean, from the narrow personal perspective, a strong Canadian dollar seems great.  I won't deny enjoying online shopping when our dollar was stronger than the US dollar, but in the larger scope it wasn't a good thing.  In my industry, the film industry, it's our highly competitive dollar that us a major factor that brings billions of US film production dollars here.  While I don't work in any natural resource industry, that same dollar advantage works there as well or for much anything else that we export.

 

Yep, agree completely, When the AUs dollar went up in 2008 online shopping was awesome, steam games for everyone.  But seeing people lose jobs as our economy is largely export too (both movies and resources) was not nice.

[MadyTehWolfie]

Lol @ giving the government any type of control over the internet.

[Trik'Stari]

On 10/17/2017 at 11:15 PM, AlwaysFSX said:

Such freedom you've got going on there Canada.

Something something freedom from being offended, something something freedom from wrong-thoughts?

[Hellion]

3 hours ago, AshleyAshes said:

The Canadian economy is primarily an export economy and the dollar being cheaper than the US dollar is actually a good thing.  When the US Economy was going sideways and the Canadian dollar was worth more than the US Dollar, this created a huge burden for the Canadian economy. (Of course, so was the United State's own weakened buying power as a result of all that sidewaysness).  The general 'sweet spot' is somewhere around .75 to the US dollar, though that's a pretty rough metric.  But, in short, you can't use the difference between the US and Canadian dollar as an indicator of a nation's financial health.

 

As for the prairies, I assume you're talking about the price of Oil tanking due to a glut in global oil production which ended the oil boom that had been going on for the last 15 years or so.  In the end, what do you want?  The government to somehow magically increase the price of a barrel of oil on the global market and fire up tar sands to full blast again?  That's not realistic and it is quite honestly beyond the control of any one government.  It's also not an indicator of a failing economy, it's a particular part of the resource industry seeing reduced market prices and a drop in demand as a result.  This unfortunately happens over time in all sectors as declines and rises move through an economy.  Overall however, Canada's economy is pretty healthy.

 

Also, and this is critical: Governments are capable of doing multiple things at once.  Because governments consist of many arms and agencies staffed many many people, allowing a government to execute a near uncountable number of tasks at once.

Oil is just part of the issue but if you want to use that as an example we can. The global market obviously takes turns but that was only for a small portion of the continued recession that is still very much in place. During this time the federal government has done next to nothing to fix the problem. In fact, they compound the issue on a continued basis by allowing other provinces (most recently quebec) to block growth of the sector in terms of pipelines that ultimately effect the prairies on a lot larger scale. For what reason? Offended tree huggers that can't see outside of their self imposed importance bubble? What does central Canada get out of this decision? We certainly aren't receiving massive bailout subsidies like the Ontario automotive industry did back around 2008.

 

We have contributed billions in transfer payments while the times were good and now that it's hit a low point the government has done nothing to return the favor. The government claims they are "diversifying" the economy. if that's the case then clearly  (as you put it) Canada shouldn't continue to have such a massive dependency on the US market.

 

You mention you work in the film industry, with that being said, I'm going to assume you are Vancouver area based. Oil is very much a large part of the northern BC economy. You should know better. It's time to open your eyes.

[Hellion]

3 hours ago, mr moose said:

Actually for the economy type that is Canada's, dropping below 80c in the dollar is just coming back to a standard figure. Over the last 25 years the Canadian dollar would have spent half it's time below 80c only going above during the early 2005 boom and the 2008 US economy crash.

 

Most countries like Canada (Australia for example) are bigger exporters than the US,  Which means you probably would have had more job losses during the US crash (because the US makes up 70 odd% of your exports which by itself accounts for more than 30% of your GDP not too mention all the investments that went into negative interest). 

Define "standard figure"? You are showing your age with this post if you think the "standard" is based upon only the last 25 years. Do some research and see what the Canadian dollar was in comparison to the US during the 60's and 70's. A strong Canadian dollar is one that spends the majority of time around 90 cents to the US. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that. I also don't think it's unreasonable that the federal government treats the entire country the same and designate additional resources to provinces in need as they have to those hit previously during other down turns.

 

The economic status includes the entire state of the country. Not just a couple of provinces.

[AshleyAshes]

1 minute ago, Hellion said:

Oil is just part of the issue but if you want to use that as an example we can. The global market obviously takes turns but that was only for a small portion of the continued recession that is still very much in place. During this time the federal government has done next to nothing to fix the problem. In fact, they compound the issue on a continued basis by allowing other provinces (most recently quebec) to block growth of the sector in terms of pipelines that ultimately effect the prairies on a lot larger scale. For what reason? Offended tree huggers that can't see outside of their self imposed importance bubble? What does central Canada get out of this decision? We certainly aren't receiving massive bailout subsidies like the Ontario automotive industry did back around 2008.

 

 

 

We have contributed billions in transfer payments while the times were good and now that it's hit a low point the government has done nothing to return the favor. The government claims they are "diversifying" the economy. if that's the case then clearly  (as you put it) Canada shouldn't continue to have such a massive dependency on the US market.

 

 

 

You mention you work in the film industry, with that being said, I'm going to assume you are Vancouver area based. Oil is very much a large part of the northern BC economy. You should know better. It's time to open your eyes.

Toranah, actually.  Capital of Canada.

So.  You seem to want the Federal government to 'fix it' with really no solid solution suggestions beyond the Federal government forcing a pipeline upon unwilling provinces.

 

However, all of that is moot and we're not going to argue it anymore.  Because all this is is your personal complaints about a specific industry where the floor fell out from under that industry as the price of oil was cut in half.  None of this makes for a failing or collapsing Canadian economy.  It's just your personal unhappiness about a specific sector failing to see continued success and the regions that are being affected by that.  The Canadian Economy, the economy as a whole, because it's not the 'Canadian Economy' when you start focusing on only specific regions and industries, is reasonably stable.

[SansVarnic]

@Terryv

Please reduce your quote from instead of the entire article to snippets. This can be considered plagiarism.

Also lengthy quotes tend to created walls of text. Utilize spoiler boxes for longer quotes/pictures.

 

Either please adjust your post to meet the Posting guidelines for the News section or it will be moved or removed.

 

What you need to do;

• reduce quotes to snippets.
• Multiple quotes may be used.
• Maybe add some more personal thoughts. (optional as you do meet the minimum needed)

 

For your review;

 

[SansVarnic]

This thread is borderline Flame war.

Please tone it down or may be locked.

[Hellion]

3 minutes ago, AshleyAshes said:

Toranah, actually.  Capital of Canada.

So.  You seem to want the Federal government to 'fix it' with really no solid solution suggestions beyond the Federal government forcing a pipeline upon unwilling provinces.

 

However, all of that is moot and we're not going to argue it anymore.  Because all this is is your personal complaints about a specific industry where the floor fell out from under that industry as the price of oil was cut in half.  None of this makes for a failing or collapsing Canadian economy.  It's just your personal unhappiness about a specific sector failing to see continued success and the regions that are being affected by that.  The Canadian Economy, the economy as a whole, because it's not the 'Canadian Economy' when you start focusing on only specific regions and industries, is reasonably stable.

That would be Ottawa... sigh...

 

So I was bang on the first time. Typical ignorant ontonian that can't see outside the center of the universe. You clearly haven't noticed that the "economy" includes northern BC, Alberta and Saskatchewan. What logic dictates to mention that the entire economy isn't dependant on one resource yet fail to mention just how critical that resource is to the greater part of it?

 

Even though Wikipedia is not the greatest of all resources, I will do you a favor and post a link for you. You don't even need to read the entirety of it, since I know just how important you precious torontonians believe your time is. You can educate yourself a little bit

.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Canada

 

Now tell me how great the economy is when one of the most important sectors is just a shade improved from an all time low?

[thorhammerz]

39 minutes ago, Hellion said:

Define "standard figure"? You are showing your age with this post if you think the "standard" is based upon only the last 25 years. Do some research and see what the Canadian dollar was in comparison to the US during the 60's and 70's.

A shame we don't live in the 60's and 70's anymore eh? Time flows by, changes happen . Welcome to the "new normal" !

Quote

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that. I also don't think it's unreasonable that the federal government treats the entire country the same and designate additional resources to provinces in need as they have to those hit previously during other down turns.

Welcome to the Westminster-style democracy that is called Canada. Does your province have (all of): early voting times (e.g. east of Manitoba)? Significant population centers? Is called Ontario or Quebec? Congratulations, your province is important in the eyes of the feds . Enjoy your stay!

Quote

 

The economic status includes the entire state of the country. Not just a couple of provinces.

The economic status includes the aggregated state of the country, of all the provinces. Incidentally, it is also implicitly weighted by population; a shame everything east of Ontario only has ~35% (and a shame these 4 provinces don't agree on anything of significance.... when are those E-W pipelines getting built again...? 3099?).

 

Incidentally, the aggregated state of the country's economy is doing quite nicely .

 

Spoiler

Please elect a secessionist party so we can end this experiment in Confederal democracy; every single province has better trade links to the U.S.A than with each other, it would make great economic sense for everyone to join, cultural cringes & the distaste in the choice of the current President notwithstanding).

 

[AshleyAshes]

Just now, Hellion said:

That would be Ottawa... sigh...

Failed to catch the joke I see.

 

2 minutes ago, Hellion said:

So I was bang on the first time. Typical ignorant ontonian that can't see outside the center of the universe. You clearly haven't noticed that the "economy" includes northern BC, Alberta and Saskatchewan.

All that Ontario bashing.  Will it break your heart if I said I grew up in YYR?

[Hellion]

6 minutes ago, thorhammerz said:

A shame we don't live in the 60's and 70's anymore eh? Time flows by, changes happen .

Welcome to the Westminster-style democracy that is called Canada. Does your province have (all of): early voting times (e.g. east of Manitoba)? Significant population centers? Is called Ontario or Quebec? Congratulations, your province is important . Enjoy your stay!

The economic status includes the aggregated state of the country, of all the provinces. Incidentally, it is also implicitly weighted by population; a shame everything east of Ontario only has ~35% (and a shame these 4 provinces don't agree on anything of significance.... when are those E-W pipelines getting built again...? 3099?).

 

  Reveal hidden contents

In all seriousness though, please elect a secessionist party so we can end this failed experiment in Confederal democracy; every single province has better trade links to the U.S.A than with each other, would make economic sense for everyone to join, cultural cringes & the choice of the current President notwithstanding).

 

Small sample sizes that fit your narrative are not all inclusive. That's a point you clearly don't understand.

 

I also don't see how population size should matter. Since when has the popular opinion ever been the best one?

 

The point I'm making is that I live in an area of downturn that hasn’t seen much improvement in a three year span. For someone living in the east coast to comment on the status of the economy and going as far to call it "stable" when that's barely the case is vastly uninformed.

 

Regarding any other political discussion, it’s far too late in the day to dive into. It’s also not even close to the original topic. I strongly agree that the Canadian government has much better problems to be dealing with then piracy that’s been proven in recent statistics to have little to no impact on that industry. ISP’s are just upset that their outdated business model is no longer relevant.

[Hellion]

17 minutes ago, AshleyAshes said:

Failed to catch the joke I see.

 

All that Ontario bashing.  Will it break your heart if I said I grew up in YYR?

It's not a joke when that's the actual mentality often perpetuated.

 

Don't really care where you were born. Clearly that's in the past and long forgotten. Out west we also call cities by their real names, not trendy airport codes...

[AshleyAshes]

Just now, Hellion said:

Out west we also call cities by their real names, not trendy airport codes...

But it's fun to make you Google it.

[thorhammerz]

11 minutes ago, Hellion said:

I also don't see how population size should matter. Since when has the popular opinion ever been the best one?

 

Check the number of MPs you have, and the number of MPs the Ontario/Quebec core has.

 

"Popular opinion" need not be the "best", it just needs to be "popular" . Welcome to democracy, enjoy your stay !

Quote

 

The point I'm making is that I live in an area of downturn that hasn’t seen much improvement in a three year span. For someone living in the east coast to comment on the status of the economy and going as far to call it "stable" when that's barely the case is vastly uninformed.

 

Welcome to the living in a local economy for which the main export shall forever more be:

• Price controlled on the global market (or at least affected by the internal policies of) by the state of 2 Islamic countries who want to destroy each other
• Limited to exporting into the super-saturated market of the continental USA. By the way, any new pipelines to that market is going to become a political tool any time environmentalists have influence in that foreign government. Good luck.
• Thanks to point #2 and the development of shale whose break-even point is at/below $50/barrel, tar sands will likely not become profitable for the short & medium-term future as internal North American crude prices are likely not to breach $70/barrel any time soon. Things would be different if you could get a pipeline either East or West.... but good luck with that.
  • American refineries are also retooling to process the ultra-sweet and light shale oil. Better get Keystone pipeline complete before your market disappears.

 

[Hellion]

1 minute ago, AshleyAshes said:

But it's fun to make you Google it.

Would you be surprised if I told you, I don't use google?

[AshleyAshes]

Just now, Hellion said:

Would you be surprised if I told you, I don't use google?

I use Google as a generic term for searching or looking things up.  So I'd have no emotional investment in what search methods you use. 

[Hellion]

3 minutes ago, thorhammerz said:

Check the number of MPs you have, and the number of MPs the Ontario/Quebec core has. "Popular opinion" need not be the "best", it just needs to be "popular". Welcome to democracy!

Welcome to the living in a local economy for which the main export shall forever more be:

• Globally price controlled (or at least affected by the internal policies of) by the state of 2 Islamic countries who want to destroy each other
• Limited to exporting into the super-saturated market of the continental USA. By the way, any new pipelines to that market is going to become a political tool any time environmentalists have influence in that foreign government. Good luck.
• Thanks to point #2 and the development of shale whose break-even point is at/below $50/barrel, will likely never become profitable as internal North American crude prices are likely not to breach $70/barrel ever again. Things would be different if you could get a pipeline either East or West.... good luck with that.
  • American refineries are also retooling to process only the ultra-sweet and light shale oil. Better get Keystone pipeline complete before your market disappears.

 

Much like your previous point this has said to be in the works for decades. "Good luck with that".

 

It's like the automotive industry saying that it's planning to fuel vehicles on renewable resources. I'll believe it when I see it.

[thorhammerz]

5 minutes ago, Hellion said:

It's like the automotive industry saying that it's planning to fuel vehicles on renewable resources. I'll believe it when I see it.

It doesn't even need to happen any time soon (or at all); just think of it as the final nail in the coffin if it ever happens. 

 

Unless and until the tar sands become economically profitable, that part of the country will continue to slowly atrophy.

 

A shame the calculations for equalization payments were pegged to projected and grossly optimistic future oil prices .

[Hellion]

21 minutes ago, thorhammerz said:

It doesn't even need to happen any time soon (or at all); just think of it as the final nail in the coffin if it ever happens. 

 

Unless and until the tar sands become economically profitable, that part of the country will continue to slowly atrophy.

 

A shame the calculations for equalization payments were pegged to projected and grossly optimistic future oil prices .

As I'm sure you are aware, you can't turn US "oil" with a viscosity of slightly above water into a lubricating agent by itself so I'm not sure how that will ever be accomplished. There are chemists out there far smarter then me though.

 

Other then that I agree. Clearly this portion of the economy needs to diversify. Don't see how that's ever going to happen when the federal government continues to increase taxes in all areas further hurting growth and the ability for upstarts or already established businesses to invest here.

 

So I'll fall back on what I said earlier that it's not only about oil. You can only kick someone when they are down so many times. Don't know how many years of decreasing equilization payments it's going to take to figure that out.

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, Hellion said:

Define "standard figure"? You are showing your age with this post if you think the "standard" is based upon only the last 25 years. Do some research and see what the Canadian dollar was in comparison to the US during the 60's and 70's. A strong Canadian dollar is one that spends the majority of time around 90 cents to the US. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that. I also don't think it's unreasonable that the federal government treats the entire country the same and designate additional resources to provinces in need as they have to those hit previously during other down turns.

 

 

The economic status includes the entire state of the country. Not just a couple of provinces.

 

"Do some research" cries the person who accused another person of being ignorant while posting something ignorant themselves.  FWIW, I'm 42.  Looking back to the 60's and 70's will give you no useful information when talking about today's values, Too much has change too significantly for that.  25 years is well and truly sufficient to start understanding the ebb and flow of an economy.