CRTC (Canada) bans cellhpones unlocking fees

[WkdPaul]

3 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Towers supports multiple frequencies. Your phone can be locked down to only one via firmware, forcing to be with a specific provider that owns the band.

Sadly, that's also a thing, I really hope they won't start doing it. But seeing as they make millions every years with unlock codes, I doubt they'll give up on that revenue!

 

 

1 minute ago, AshleyAshes said:

So is our Minster of Defense.  ...Who I got a selfie with at midnight at an anime convention...

I know, it's just that I was specifically talking about Bains!

[yathis]

5 hours ago, wkdpaul said:

The CRTC (Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission) just issued a ruling stating that service providers can't charge for phone unlocking and that from December 1st, all new phones sold have to be unlocked.

 

 

It's about time IMO, here in Canada we keep being screwed over by "the big 3" (Bell, Telus & Rogers). I would be happy to buy new big brand phones if they weren't so locked down, though in the end they might simply offset that cost into the phones or plans, we'll see I guess!

 

Source;

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/crtc-wireless-code-cellphone-1.4161711

Good stuff

Them greedy bastards, them damn fucking greedy bastids!!!!!!!!!!!

[yathis]

Just now, yathis said:

they might simply offset that cost into the phones or plans

Yes no doubt they will be doing that.

[AshleyAshes]

Phones that were restricted to an exceptionally narrow frequency range would be phones that can't make all of that juicy roaming fee money.

[GoodBytes]

13 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

Sadly, that's also a thing, I really hope they won't start doing it. But seeing as they make millions every years with unlock codes, I doubt they'll give up on that revenue!

Trust me they won't.. they'll either add that 50$ to the plan per year rounded up (of course), so 5$ more on each plan, give them 100$ per consumer at the end of their contract.

Or, have you bring the phone to the store, to get it unlocked where they'll send a firmware update to unlock the other frequencies, making it more annoying to you. Although, implementing this takes a long time, and that might give Canadians 1-2, maybe 3 years of being opened.. Max 5 years. My predictions, of course.

Everything is possible.

[WkdPaul]

7 minutes ago, AshleyAshes said:

Phones that were restricted to an exceptionally narrow frequency range would be phones that can't make all of that juicy roaming fee money.

ture, but frequency locks really is a thing, there's lots of threads on XDA for a multitude of devices that show how to unlock more bands (from Samsung and LG to Huawei and Xiaomi).

 

 

@GoodBytes yeah, that's also my guess, they will probably make sure to add it the the device amortized cost.

[yathis]

Actually its 2 year plans now, so $50 over 2 years = 24 months, so +$2/m on the plans, but people will notice that jump.

 

I am making a conscience choice to use an older iphone and not going plan route just to get a new phone that I never use the features on. I just like flat screen, notes, a few apps, and call/text.

[ARikozuM]

I love how the first page was a chinchilla talking to a cat... 

[rattacko123]

7 hours ago, MrMcMuffinJr said:

sounds like a prison

 It's like the game Monopoly, pay $50 to get out of jail

[Ryujin2003]

I have ATT in US, and didn't have to pay to unlock any of my phones. Their policy is have to have the phone for 2 years. Pretty much, after you pay it off and like to make sure you aren't jumping mid contract, they will allow you to unlock no issues.

 

Did this for an iPhone 5 and Galaxy S5 for a trip to Asia. Maybe I'm spoiled, but I cannot imagine why it was a good idea to pay to unlock a device you already paid for. Maybe ATT is different?

[MorganO]

9 hours ago, dizmo said:

Didn't know London,UK was in Canada

what?

[Hunter115]

the fun thing is its illegal too unlock your phone in my country

 

up to 2 years prison 

[Big Head Tech]

22 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

They'll find other ways to block it. Like forcing manufactures to get a custom firmware where they block frequencies not owned by them. This means you can only use their network... so even if you switch provider, you are stuck with them, and they get money regardless.

 

But regardless, I don't see why people just don't buy unlock phones directly.

1. You can switch providers each month if you want
2. Gives you negotiating power when picking a plan
3. You can adapt your plan to your needs. Example: If you lose your job tomorrow, you can switch to a basic plan, minimizing your costs, and not stuck with a fortune to pay
4. Pay less per month
5. Pick a better plan that better fit your needs, saving money

A few reasons. People don't like spending full price up front because they are cheap and want a phone for free or no money up front. Also manufactures would rather not have to build every cell frequency in each phone to save costs. So like AT&T and TMobile only uses GSM where Verizon and Sprint uses CDMA and GSM. While most VZW phones which are unlocked work on every network, it's not the same vise versa.

[dalekphalm]

21 hours ago, Snaeb said:

A few reasons. People don't like spending full price up front because they are cheap and want a phone for free or no money up front. Also manufactures would rather not have to build every cell frequency in each phone to save costs. So like AT&T and TMobile only uses GSM where Verizon and Sprint uses CDMA and GSM. While most VZW phones which are unlocked work on every network, it's not the same vise versa.

While I think you mean AT&T and TMobile use SIM cards and Sprint doesn't, because while both may have GSM and CDMA legacy networks, neither GSM nor CMDA have any relevance to LTE networks. GSM and CMDA are both Gen 2 ("2G") cellular technologies. LTE is a 4G (or higher, depend on who you ask or the exact revision) technology.

 

But I'm going to highly disagree with you here.

 

Manufacturers do NOT want to make 15 different versions of a cellphone just to handle different networks and different network technologies. Keep in mind, even between old legacy tech like CMDA and GSM, there are multiple potential frequencies, with regional and local variations. LTE has the same issue. There are multiple bands (frequencies) that are used worldwide for LTE, even among all the companies that use SIM cards.

 

If they can make one piece of hardware that will be able to support any of the carriers worldwide, that will save them a lot of money - the extra cost of a radio that supports all the frequencies as opposed to some of the frequencies, is minuscule compared to the cost of creating, designing, manufacturing, and marketing the same phone with small tiny variations multiple times.

 

Besides, most modern radio chips likely support all the major frequencies anyway. They're buying an LTE radio from (let's say Qualcomm) anyway - why would they go out of their way to get one that's more limited? Manufacturers aren't the ones that care about Carrier Locking, they only care that John bought the new iPhone 17s Plus.

[EhhZeke]

On 6/15/2017 at 0:25 PM, BlueChinchillaEatingDorito said:

Look at that difference. God damn.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

It also varies by province on what you get for how much. Here in SK I get 15GB Data, unlimited everything, including Canada/US talk, text, no roaming at all betweent he two countries and I pay like $110. If I wanted that in ON I would be paying easily hundreds or more. I looked into it as a friend lives in ON but is from SK and uses a SK plan in ON. 

[dalekphalm]

13 minutes ago, ZekeV2 said:

It also varies by province on what you get for how much. Here in SK I get 15GB Data, unlimited everything, including Canada/US talk, text, no roaming at all betweent he two countries and I pay like $110. If I wanted that in ON I would be paying easily hundreds or more. I looked into it as a friend lives in ON but is from SK and uses a SK plan in ON. 

Regional carriers (Sasktel, in your example).

 

It proves, 100%, without a doubt, that more competition is desperately needed in the rest of Canada. Competition works.

 

We have Freedom Mobile (formerly Wind Mobile), which is now owned by Shaw, but their network coverage is basically insignificant outside of the major cities. Even a few KM outside of the cities they cover and you're out of their network. They're slowly increasing, and hopefully the money Shaw can invest will help faster expansion.

 

I've resorted to getting a Manitoba Plan from Koodo ($55/mo for 5GB Data and unlimited everything else).

[Big Head Tech]

4 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

While I think you mean AT&T and TMobile use SIM cards and Sprint doesn't, because while both may have GSM and CDMA legacy networks, neither GSM nor CMDA have any relevance to LTE networks. GSM and CMDA are both Gen 2 ("2G") cellular technologies. LTE is a 4G (or higher, depend on who you ask or the exact revision) technology.

 

But I'm going to highly disagree with you here.

 

Manufacturers do NOT want to make 15 different versions of a cellphone just to handle different networks and different network technologies. Keep in mind, even between old legacy tech like CMDA and GSM, there are multiple potential frequencies, with regional and local variations. LTE has the same issue. There are multiple bands (frequencies) that are used worldwide for LTE, even among all the companies that use SIM cards.

 

If they can make one piece of hardware that will be able to support any of the carriers worldwide, that will save them a lot of money - the extra cost of a radio that supports all the frequencies as opposed to some of the frequencies, is minuscule compared to the cost of creating, designing, manufacturing, and marketing the same phone with small tiny variations multiple times.

 

Besides, most modern radio chips likely support all the major frequencies anyway. They're buying an LTE radio from (let's say Qualcomm) anyway - why would they go out of their way to get one that's more limited? Manufacturers aren't the ones that care about Carrier Locking, they only care that John bought the new iPhone 17s Plus.

Both Vzw and Sprint use sim cards. LTE is a newer GSM technology a VZW voice calling still goes over the CDMA network.

[dalekphalm]

2 minutes ago, Snaeb said:

Both Vzw and Sprint use sim cards. LTE is a newer GSM technology a VZW voice calling still goes over the CDMA network.

You're incorrect - LTE is not a newer GSM technology. LTE uses technology that evolved from both GSM and CDMA. LTE was developed by the organization 3GPP, which was involved with GSM, but was also involved with UMTS/HSPA, which is the direct successor to CDMA, known as WCDMA.

 

I cannot comment about Verizon using CDMA for voice calling, since I have no information about that. I can't see how that would work, though, as CDMA and LTE are different protocols - I would question whether a device can connect to two different protocols for voice and data.

 

Verizon is repurposing a bunch of CDMA frequencies over to LTE, as needed for demand. But those are just frequencies, and you can run either protocol on the same frequency. That doesn't mean the device will connect to LTE for data and CDMA for voice. Maybe it's possible, but I digress, it doesn't change my original point, in that LTE is not GSM.

[Big Head Tech]

5 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

You're incorrect - LTE is not a newer GSM technology. LTE uses technology that evolved from both GSM and CDMA. LTE was developed by the organization 3GPP, which was involved with GSM, but was also involved with UMTS/HSPA, which is the direct successor to CDMA, known as WCDMA.

 

I cannot comment about Verizon using CDMA for voice calling, since I have no information about that. I can't see how that would work, though, as CDMA and LTE are different protocols - I would question whether a device can connect to two different protocols for voice and data.

 

Verizon is repurposing a bunch of CDMA frequencies over to LTE, as needed for demand. But those are just frequencies, and you can run either protocol on the same frequency. That doesn't mean the device will connect to LTE for data and CDMA for voice. Maybe it's possible, but I digress, it doesn't change my original point, in that LTE is not GSM.

Lte technology works like enhanced gsm and nothing like cdma. I'd rather not get too technical but here in the states apple makes 2 kinds of phones, one with CDMA and GSM (LTE) and one only GSM (LTE).

[handymanshandle]

I'm not totally sure if Canada has carriers like Verizon or Sprint who use CDMA (No sim)

CDMA phones now generally have sim cards because LTE but still my Galaxy S6 on Verizon can't go to say T-Mobile or AT&T because it uses a different technology than them. My S6 as far as I'm aware only has CDMA bands and frequencies.

[dalekphalm]

9 minutes ago, Snaeb said:

Lte technology works like enhanced gsm and nothing like cdma. I'd rather not get too technical but here in the states apple makes 2 kinds of phones, one with CDMA and GSM (LTE) and one only GSM (LTE).

LTE might work "like" GSM, but it's not GSM. Period.

 

Guess what else worked "like" GSM? HSPA. Guess what the other term for HSPA is? WCDMA - the evolution of CDMA. Does that make HSPA a GSM technology? No. It incorporated some of the benefits of GSM technology while evolving the CDMA specifications into a more modern protocol.

 

LTE takes technologies from both CDMA and GSM.

 

You're probably talking about which legacy networks the phones work on. As most cellphones support legacy "fallback" networks, in areas where LTE is not supported or the signal isn't good enough, the phone can "fall back" onto, say, a GSM (or CDMA) network - whichever network-type that carrier happens to operate.

 

Those fallback functions have nothing to do with LTE in-and-of itself. If you're talking about something else, you'll have to elaborate and explain yourself.

[dalekphalm]

7 minutes ago, wcreek said:

I'm not totally sure if Canada has carriers like Verizon or Sprint who use CDMA (No sim)

CDMA phones now generally have sim cards because LTE but still my Galaxy S6 on Verizon can't go to say T-Mobile or AT&T because it uses a different technology than them. My S6 as far as I'm aware only has CDMA bands and frequencies.

Those are band restrictions. Most likely, the radio in your phone only operates on the frequencies used by Verizon, which they carried over from their old CDMA networks (Most CDMA carriers still run the CDMA legacy network side by side with the new LTE network).

 

But the LTE technology is the same, it's just what frequencies the phone supports.

 

If T-Mobile went out to one of their network towers, and changed the frequency to the same frequency that Verizon operates on (and assuming your phone is unlocked), it would work with a Verizon SIM.

 

Of course, T-Mobile won't do that, because it's illegal for them to "steal" frequency space they don't have a license for.

 

Some phones (often called "World edition" or "world phones") have radios in them that support all common frequency bands, including those of CDMA and GSM legacy networks. Such a phone can switch back and fourth between them on LTE.

 

Here in Canada, Telus and Bell both are legacy CDMA Carriers - but as of HSPA (W-CDMA) and upwards, they've adopted SIM cards. Rogers is a legacy GSM operator. If I buy a phone that supports the frequencies that both Rogers and Bell use for their respective HSPA or LTE networks, it will work on both.

 

"GSM" is a term that is misused a lot - people just associate it with a SIM card slot. But GSM is SPECIFICALLY a 2G (second generation) wireless protocol/specification/technology.

[Big Head Tech]

14 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Those are band restrictions. Most likely, the radio in your phone only operates on the frequencies used by Verizon, which they carried over from their old CDMA networks (Most CDMA carriers still run the CDMA legacy network side by side with the new LTE network).

 

But the LTE technology is the same, it's just what frequencies the phone supports.

 

If T-Mobile went out to one of their network towers, and changed the frequency to the same frequency that Verizon operates on (and assuming your phone is unlocked), it would work with a Verizon SIM.

 

Of course, T-Mobile won't do that, because it's illegal for them to "steal" frequency space they don't have a license for.

 

Some phones (often called "World edition" or "world phones") have radios in them that support all common frequency bands, including those of CDMA and GSM legacy networks. Such a phone can switch back and fourth between them on LTE.

 

Here in Canada, Telus and Bell both are legacy CDMA Carriers - but as of HSPA (W-CDMA) and upwards, they've adopted SIM cards. Rogers is a legacy GSM operator. If I buy a phone that supports the frequencies that both Rogers and Bell use for their respective HSPA or LTE networks, it will work on both.

 

"GSM" is a term that is misused a lot - people just associate it with a SIM card slot. But GSM is SPECIFICALLY a 2G (second generation) wireless protocol/specification/technology.

CDMA and GSM are frequency types. I work for engineering for one of these companies. LTE is an advanced version of the original GSM technology. CDMA worked entirely different.

[iBabySlapper]

I didn't know locked phones still existed.

Well, I haven't taken out a phone contract for five years now. I just buy smartphones new or refurb these days online since they're so cheap now, and yearly incremental updates are small. I have a late 2015 flagship android phone I got summer last year, and plan to upgrade in a few months and it'll cost me about £350 if that for a late 2016 flagship. I'll get about £200 back from selling my old phone too.

 

Getting a phone on contract is stupid for me since all I use is about 1gb, if that, of data a month, and taking out what's a loan with a different name is just a waste of money at the end of the contract. Especially when there's Wi-Fi everywhere you go these days.

 

Even if you do use your phone a lot a contract is still pretty dumb for most people since they'd save a lot more money going pre-paid or sim-only monthly (at least in the UK where I get 1p per MB with 100MB of free data every time I pre-pay on super-reliable 4G LTE, and there are sim-only plans that give you data for less than half of the price of the pre-paid plan as long as you don't mind paying for 3-5 GB at a time along with the usual 100s of texts and calls). It's just an old belief that pay-monthly (as it's called in the UK) is cheaper than pre-paid/sim-only, that was true in the blackberry curve days and before that, but simply isn't now.

 

And even if I bought a new phone from my network which I never do because they rip you off, it'll still be unlocked out of the box and this has been the case for more than three years.

So well done Canada, you're on the way to pushing your lazy-ass telecoms industry to move out of the 2010s.

[dalekphalm]

1 minute ago, Snaeb said:

CDMA and GSM are frequency types. I work for engineering for one of these companies. LTE is an advanced version of the original GSM technology. CDMA worked entirely different.

To say that CDMA and GSM are "frequency types" is incredibly misleading.

 

For example, GSM and CDMA can both operate at the following frequencies:

850 MHz

900 MHz

1900 MHz

 

(There are others)

 

Most of the time, carriers used different frequencies due to how governments license out the bands, but in other parts of the world, the opposite may be true, again, due to how governments license out the bands (and specifically, which bands are reserved for non-cellular use).