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theshadowbrokers asserts that the NSA pays Microsoft to keep vulnerabilities open, to be exploited

Delicieuxz
By Delicieuxz
in Tech News
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Posted

Well this could be interesting

 

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Several bipartisan lawmakers introduced a bill Wednesday that aims to prevent another mass leak of government-owned hacking tools -- by forcing the government to turn over its arsenal to an independent review board to determine which significant vulnerabilities can be secured.

The bicameral bill introduced in Congress aims to scale back the government's vast bank of offensive cyber-weapons.

 

The so-called Protecting Our Ability to Counter Hacking Act -- or PATCH Act, for short -- would force the government to turn over its stockpile of undisclosed zero-day exploits it uses to target computers and networks for surveillance and intelligence gathering activities to a newly-established independent technical review board. Lawmakers hope that more secret hardware and software vulnerabilities can be made public and fixed.

That would make America's overall cybersecurity health stronger, say the lawmakers.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/congress-introduces-bill-to-prevent-us-from-stockpiling-cyber-weapons/

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Posted
14 minutes ago, Dylanc1500 said:

I can see that being an extremely bad thing as well.

Yea, very much Pandora's box.

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10 hours ago, nerdslayer1 said:

nothing you can really do about it sadly, windows has become number one business platform. 

Linux bro.

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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̌̅̒̾̈́̆͌̌̾̎̽̐̅̏́̈̔͛̀̋̃͊̒̓͗͒̑͒̃͂̌̄̇̑̇͛̆̾͛̒̇̍̒̓̀̈́̄̐͂̍͊͗̎̔͌͛̂̏̉̊̎͗͊͒̂̈̽̊́̔̊̃͑̈́̑̌̋̓̅̔́́͒̄̈́̈̂͐̈̅̈̓͌̓͊́̆͌̉͐̊̉͛̓̏̓̅̈́͂̉̒̇̉̆̀̍̄̇͆͛̏̉̑̃̓͂́͋̃̆̒͋̓͊̄́̓̕̕̕̚͘͘͘̚̕̚͘̕̕͜͜͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͠ͅS̷̢̨̧̢̡̨̢̨̢̨̧̧̨̧͚̱̪͇̱̮̪̮̦̝͖̜͙̘̪̘̟̱͇͎̻̪͚̩͍̠̹̮͚̦̝̤͖̙͔͚̙̺̩̥̻͈̺̦͕͈̹̳̖͓̜͚̜̭͉͇͖̟͔͕̹̯̬͍̱̫̮͓̙͇̗̙̼͚̪͇̦̗̜̼̠͈̩̠͉͉̘̱̯̪̟͕̘͖̝͇̼͕̳̻̜͖̜͇̣̠̹̬̗̝͓̖͚̺̫͛̉̅̐̕͘͜͜͜͜ͅͅͅ.̶̨̢̢̨̢̨̢̛̻͙̜̼̮̝̙̣̘̗̪̜̬̳̫̙̮̣̹̥̲̥͇͈̮̟͉̰̮̪̲̗̳̰̫̙͍̦̘̠̗̥̮̹̤̼̼̩͕͉͕͇͙̯̫̩̦̟̦̹͈͔̱̝͈̤͓̻̟̮̱͖̟̹̝͉̰͊̓̏̇͂̅̀̌͑̿͆̿̿͗̽̌̈́̉̂̀̒̊̿͆̃̄͑͆̃̇͒̀͐̍̅̃̍̈́̃̕͘͜͜͝͠͠z̴̢̢̡̧̢̢̧̢̨̡̨̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̲͚̠̜̮̠̜̞̤̺͈̘͍̻̫͖̣̥̗̙̳͓͙̫̫͖͍͇̬̲̳̭̘̮̤̬̖̼͎̬̯̼̮͔̭̠͎͓̼̖̟͈͓̦̩̦̳̙̮̗̮̩͙͓̮̰̜͎̺̞̝̪͎̯̜͈͇̪̙͎̩͖̭̟͎̲̩͔͓͈͌́̿͐̍̓͗͑̒̈́̎͂̋͂̀͂̑͂͊͆̍͛̄̃͌͗̌́̈̊́́̅͗̉͛͌͋̂̋̇̅̔̇͊͑͆̐̇͊͋̄̈́͆̍̋̏͑̓̈́̏̀͒̂̔̄̅̇̌̀̈́̿̽̋͐̾̆͆͆̈̌̿̈́̎͌̊̓̒͐̾̇̈́̍͛̅͌̽́̏͆̉́̉̓̅́͂͛̄̆͌̈́̇͐̒̿̾͌͊͗̀͑̃̊̓̈̈́̊͒̒̏̿́͑̄̑͋̀̽̀̔̀̎̄͑̌̔́̉̐͛̓̐̅́̒̎̈͆̀̍̾̀͂̄̈́̈́̈́̑̏̈́̐̽̐́̏̂̐̔̓̉̈́͂̕̚̕͘͘̚͘̚̕̚̚̚͘̕̕̕͜͜͝͠͠͝͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅī̸̧̧̧̡̨̨̢̨̛̛̘͓̼̰̰̮̗̰͚̙̥̣͍̦̺͈̣̻͇̱͔̰͈͓͖͈̻̲̫̪̲͈̜̲̬̖̻̰̦̰͙̤̘̝̦̟͈̭̱̮̠͍̖̲͉̫͔͖͔͈̻̖̝͎̖͕͔̣͈̤̗̱̀̅̃̈́͌̿̏͋̊̇̂̀̀̒̉̄̈́͋͌̽́̈́̓̑̈̀̍͗͜͜͠͠ͅp̴̢̢̧̨̡̡̨̢̨̢̢̢̨̡̛̛͕̩͕̟̫̝͈̖̟̣̲̖̭̙͇̟̗͖͎̹͇̘̰̗̝̹̤̺͉͎̙̝̟͙͚̦͚͖̜̫̰͖̼̤̥̤̹̖͉͚̺̥̮̮̫͖͍̼̰̭̤̲͔̩̯̣͖̻͇̞̳̬͉̣̖̥̣͓̤͔̪̙͎̰̬͚̣̭̞̬͎̼͉͓̮͙͕̗̦̞̥̮̘̻͎̭̼͚͎͈͇̥̗͖̫̮̤̦͙̭͎̝͖̣̰̱̩͎̩͎̘͇̟̠̱̬͈̗͍̦̘̱̰̤̱̘̫̫̮̥͕͉̥̜̯͖̖͍̮̼̲͓̤̮͈̤͓̭̝̟̲̲̳̟̠͉̙̻͕͙̞͔̖͈̱̞͓͔̬̮͎̙̭͎̩̟̖͚̆͐̅͆̿͐̄̓̀̇̂̊̃̂̄̊̀͐̍̌̅͌̆͊̆̓́̄́̃̆͗͊́̓̀͑͐̐̇͐̍́̓̈́̓̑̈̈́̽͂́̑͒͐͋̊͊̇̇̆̑̃̈́̎͛̎̓͊͛̐̾́̀͌̐̈́͛̃̂̈̿̽̇̋̍͒̍͗̈͘̚̚͘̚͘͘͜͜͜͜͜͜͠͠͝͝ͅͅͅ☻♥■∞{╚mYÄÜXτ╕○\╚Θº£¥ΘBM@Q05♠{{↨↨▬§¶‼↕◄►☼1♦  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13 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Yea, very much Pandora's box.

Sometimes it's better to keep certain secrets within Pandora's holding.

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46 minutes ago, Kumaresh said:

I am a bit confused regarding certain things here.

  1. Do these hackers have any proof about payments being given to Microsoft ?
  2. Is their theory plausible ? 
  3. Is Microsoft prompt in updating known vulnerabilities and are they proactive in taking measures to find new vulnerabilities ?

@leadeater Could you explain ? You seem to be much more knowledgeable with regards to this topic than the average person.

1. No idea, Microsoft isn't going to keep around proof of it either if they can help it.

 

2. Not sure if there is any actual money changing hands or not but I'm confident that Microsoft is aware of government sanctioned exploits involving their products, whether or not there is collusion between them I'd put that on the less likely side of the spectrum than the more likely side. To what level of knowledge Microsoft has of each exploit that could vary depending on each one and how valuable that is to the NSA/CIA, spies don't exactly go round telling people their best secrets.

 

We have seen Microsoft's official public response to the wannacry attack and they were clear about their displeasure that the NSA/CIA is withholding exploit information from them.

 

Microsoft isn't going to willingly do things that could be very damaging to their image if they don't have to.

 

3. As prompt as possible I guess, they release a significant amount of security updates every month when you compare them to any other operating system or software products. They work with many different security and research agencies to find security flaws in their products, there are also independent entities that also do this and report flaws found to Microsoft. 

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As an extra piece of information I believe this was one of the first instances of EternalBlue and/or DoublePulsar being used, I don't think it was wannacry but was breaching systems using the same exploit (I think). Information regarding this breach is still being withheld and there is information that I also cannot disclose.

 

Quote

Students and staff of Wellington's Victoria University have been warned their usernames and passwords may have been compromised following a data breach.

 

The National Cyber Security Centre and security consultants are assessing the breach after the university warned students to change their passwords on Tuesday.

University chief operating officer Mark Loveard said students and staff had been contacted after it became aware that unauthorised access was gained to the university's IT systems.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/92121891/student-data-potentially-compromised-after-victoria-university-it-system-hacked

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What the hell you guys?? This is LTT, not bloody Buzzfeed! Over half of the claims posted by the OP is self-contradictory. The NSA receives the source code for Windows as a legal requirement; Microsoft has no say in the matter. It is then the responsibility of the NSA alone to disclose any bugs and loopholes it has found. Microsoft cannot fix security holes it does not know about, end of story. So explain to me, how is this something Microsoft agreed on in terms of backdoors?

 

Mid-2014 has marked the day when the general populace has lost the ability of basic reading comprehension, and it has only been getting worse by the month.

Read the community standards; it's like a guide on how to not be a moron.

 

Gerdauf's Law: Each and every human being, without exception, is the direct carbon copy of the types of people that he/she bitterly opposes.

Remember, calling facts opinions does not ever make the facts opinions, no matter what nonsense you pull.

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6 hours ago, Kumaresh said:

I am a bit confused regarding certain things here.

  1. Do these hackers have any proof about payments being given to Microsoft ?
  2. Is their theory plausible ? 
  3. Is Microsoft prompt in updating known vulnerabilities and are they proactive in taking measures to find new vulnerabilities ?

@leadeater Could you explain ? You seem to be much more knowledgeable with regards to this topic than the average person.

 

Given MS is a public company and has to fill out all relevant securities papers quarterly, if they were being paid by the government in some way, there would either have to be very creative accounting methods employed (more people at both the government and MS to keep quiet) or the entire securities exchange would have to be part of the conspiracy.  It's one thing to have the NSA et al doing dodgy shit, but quite another to try and make it a global conspiracy, becasue the reality is there are so many independent contractors who work with this stuff that I find it very difficult to believe that only one ex employee and one hacker group with no reputation or evidence have laid these claims.

The truth always comes out in the end,  the bigger the issues the more workers there are and the more evidence surfaces. 

 

 

MS do enough shit to legitimately complain about, you don't need to go digging up conspiracies, unsubstantiated hacker claims and speculative twitter feeds to further a personal ideal. 

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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54 minutes ago, mr moose said:

the reality is there are so many independent contractors who work with this stuff that I find it very difficult to believe that only one ex employee and one hacker group with no reputation or evidence have laid these claims.

This is not the first time evidence has surfaced that Microsoft are being paid and/or help NSA gain access to systems. The OP actually includes several links to previous events.

 

Also, this is not just some "no name group with no reputation". This is the group who leaked a lot of confidential NSA data, including the exploit that was deployed in WannaCry. It's not some random person making claims. It's a group which has already posted stolen and 100% working exploits that the NSA developed. If anyone has insider information, it's them.

 

This is far from unsubstantiated or "speculative twitter feeds" (which is Edward Snowden).

 

 

54 minutes ago, mr moose said:

The truth always comes out in the end,  the bigger the issues the more workers there are and the more evidence surfaces. 

But that's exactly what is happening. This is one out of many claims (with evidence) to support the theory that Microsoft is in fact helping the NSA in various ways. You can't keep saying "this is just one person. If it was true then we would have heard about it from more people!" over and over again when we got info coming from multiple people.

 

 

It's good to be skeptical of claims and want to look into things further before making your mind up. But judging by your post (and some other users on this forum) it seems more like you're just going to reject any evidence which does not support your predefined conclusion.

 

 

3 hours ago, Colonel_Gerdauf said:

The NSA receives the source code for Windows as a legal requirement; Microsoft has no say in the matter. It is then the responsibility of the NSA alone to disclose any bugs and loopholes it has found.

Source? I have not seen any evidence that supports this claim.

 

 

3 hours ago, Colonel_Gerdauf said:

So explain to me, how is this something Microsoft agreed on in terms of backdoors?

I recommend you read some of the links provided in the OP, such as this article from The Guardian.

NSA's own internal emails claim that they have worked with Microsoft to develop backdoors (they call them surveillance capabilities).

You might say that "worked with Microsoft" refers to this deal where Microsoft has to show government agencies their source code, but I would like to see some evidence for such a deal existing before buying that argument. Besides, there is no law which forces Microsoft to hand over their source code, so even if what you are saying is true, they are still doing it by choice.

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11 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

This is not the first time evidence has surfaced that Microsoft are being paid and/or help NSA gain access to systems. The OP actually includes several links to previous events.

 

Also, this is not just some "no name group with no reputation". This is the group who leaked a lot of confidential NSA data, including the exploit that was deployed in WannaCry. It's not some random person making claims. It's a group which has already posted stolen and 100% working exploits that the NSA developed. If anyone has insider information, it's them.

 

This is far from unsubstantiated or "speculative twitter feeds" (which is Edward Snowden).

 

 

But that's exactly what is happening. This is one out of many claims (with evidence) to support the theory that Microsoft is in fact helping the NSA in various ways. You can't keep saying "this is just one person. If it was true then we would have heard about it from more people!" over and over again when we got info coming from multiple people.

 

 

It's good to be skeptical of claims and want to look into things further before making your mind up. But judging by your post (and some other users on this forum) it seems more like you're just going to reject any evidence which does not support your predefined conclusion.

 

 

Source? I have not seen any evidence that supports this claim.

 

 

I recommend you read some of the links provided in the OP, such as this article from The Guardian.

NSA's own internal emails claim that they have worked with Microsoft to develop backdoors (they call them surveillance capabilities).

People making claims and people presenting actual evidence are two different things,  imagine if we all we needed were claims to find some one guilty of a crime.  And yes, as far as I am concerned one group leaking documents is not the same as multiple sources of evidence.  Regardless of our opinion on these groups/people i.e snowden, richards or manning. claims without proof are just that.  

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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  • Author
14 minutes ago, mr moose said:

People making claims and people presenting actual evidence are two different things,  imagine if we all we needed were claims to find some one guilty of a crime.  And yes, as far as I am concerned one group leaking documents is not the same as multiple sources of evidence.  Regardless of our opinion on these groups/people i.e snowden, richards or manning. claims without proof are just that.  

The Shadow Brokers have already released NSA hacking tools, and information on USA government digital warfare. They're also offering for sale a large catalog of the NSA's tools, and secret information the NSA has gathered through hacking. They definitely have a reputation, but there's a USA media blackout in effect, because the MSM doesn't want to be giving attention to USA-embarrassing information, and also doesn't want to either be directing interested hackers to the Shadow Brokers' storefront of NSA hacking tools, or other people to sensitive information about other states that the USA government has stolen through hacking.

 

From the OP Shadow Brokers' post:

Quote

 

In June, TheShadowBrokers is announcing "TheShadowBrokers Data Dump of the Month" service. TheShadowBrokers is launching new monthly subscription model. Is being like wine of month club. Each month peoples can be paying membership fee, then getting members only data dump each month. What members doing with data after is up to members.

 

TheShadowBrokers Monthly Data Dump could be being:

 

web browser, router, handset exploits and tools

select items from newer Ops Disks, including newer exploits for Windows 10

compromised network data from more SWIFT providers and Central banks

compromised network data from Russian, Chinese, Iranian, or North Korean nukes and missile programs

More details in June.

 

OR IF RESPONSIBLE PARTY IS BUYING ALL LOST DATA BEFORE IT IS BEING SOLD TO THEPEOPLES THEN THESHADOWBROKERS WILL HAVE NO MORE FINANCIAL INCENTIVES TO BE TAKING CONTINUED RISKS OF OPERATIONS AND WILL GO DARK PERMANENTLY YOU HAVING OUR PUBLIC BITCOIN ADDRESS

 

-TSB

 

 

Here's a list of the Equation Group tools that TSB are offering for sale, along with their price in Bitcoins. It costs 750 BTC (roughly $1.125 million) for the entire package, with most individual items costing 10 BTC (which is roughly $15,000 USD, right now).

 

https://steemit.com/news/@mariaalmeida/hackers-threaten-to-sell-malicious-code-used-in-ransomware-attacks

 

C1n6lmqXcAEUAzI.jpg

 

 

You own the software that you purchase - Understanding software licenses and EULAs

 

"We’ll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the american public believes is false" - William Casey, CIA Director 1981-1987

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Posted
7 hours ago, Kumaresh said:

Do these hackers have any proof about payments being given to Microsoft ?

Yes. Among other things, some exploits in NSA's documents (which were leaked by the same group) were marked as "purchased by NSA" and "came with purchase".

Of course, this isn't air tight evidence like some credit card transaction document would be, but we will most likely never get any evidence like that even if it did happen. This is however not the first time similar claims has been made, and this is not the first hacker group with insider knowledge who makes these types of claims.

 

If several source who we know have access to the internal systems make similar claims and post fairly weak but better than nothing evidence, then it might not be 100% confirmed, but there is probably some truth to it.

 

 

7 hours ago, Kumaresh said:

Is their theory plausible ? 

Absolutely. It is possible that everything they claim is true, but it's also possible that only half of what they say is true, or maybe even less than that. Microsoft working with the NSA is pretty much confirmed at this point, but to what degree is still up in the air. Claims like Microsoft getting paid for it seems a bit far reaching but with the evidence that has been posted it is at the very least somewhat plausible.

Payment does not necessary mean money either. It could be other things such as goods or services that's the payment.

 

I don't think we have enough solid evidence to say how much or little is true right now, but it is at the very least a real possibility.

 

 

7 hours ago, Kumaresh said:

Is Microsoft prompt in updating known vulnerabilities and are they proactive in taking measures to find new vulnerabilities ?

They are sometimes fast with updates, and sometimes horrendously slow. It depends on how they prioritize things. With the SMBv1 security issue they were fast (at least for the official supported OSes), but there have been issues in the past such as some discovered by Project Zero which Microsoft did not fix until the non-disclosure period (as well as the grace period) ran out (and they were forced to fix them since customers were at risk).

It depends on the risk assessment made by Microsoft. If something is very likely to be exploited and/or can cause great damage, then they will dedicate more resources to having the issue fixed. If they think it is just a minor issue that's not likely to be used for malicious activities, and/or the damage it can cause is small then fewer resources will be dedicated to getting it fixed.

 

Remotely installing and executing software is a really serious issue, so it got fixed quickly.

Things like for example being able to increase your privilege level when you got physical access to the machine, under a certain set of circumstances is not as high of a priority.

 

And yes, Microsoft are proactively looking for security holes in their products, and they are getting help from other companies too (such as Google's Project Zero).

 

 

14 minutes ago, mr moose said:

People making claims and people presenting actual evidence are two different things,  imagine if we all we needed were claims to find some one guilty of a crime.  And yes, as far as I am concerned one group leaking documents is not the same as multiple sources of evidence.  Regardless of our opinion on these groups/people i.e snowden, richards or manning. claims without proof are just that.  

But they do have evidence. They have posted several internal documents which were bundled with real exploits which have been used in the wild.

You're basically saying: "yes they released 1,000 exploits that were 100% confirmed to be real and stolen from the NSA, but I don't trust that the documentation which mentions that they were bought from Microsoft is true. I think they are lying about that and will therefore say there is no evidence for it!".

This is not just empty claims. The claims are from documents which have been proven to contain real information which has been verified as true.

 

Of course they could have forged that specific information, but if you think it's the rational position to have that they would have all this information which has been confirmed to be accurate and true, yet lie about this one particular thing then it sounds like you're being in denial.

 

And let me repeat before the Microsoft Defense Force gets ordered to attack me, I completely agree that the documents which were included in the leak could be forged. It might be fake claims. But I think it is illogical to label it as "no evidence" when everything else they have leaked has been confirmed to be true. If a group makes 1000 claims and 999 turns out to be true, then you should at the very least listen to the 1000th claim too and assume that there is at least some truth to it.

 

And yes, there have been multiple people and groups making similar claims. Snowden and the Shadowbrokers are not one and the same. Sadly (or maybe luckily) we do not have hundreds of groups all hacking into the NSA on a daily basis, but there are more than one source of evidence for these claims. There might only be two, three or four sources, but that's still multiple sources.

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9 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

The Shadow Brokers have already released NSA hacking tools, and information on USA government digital warfare. They're also offering for sale a large catalog of the NSA's tools, and secret information the NSA has gathered through hacking. They definitely have a reputation, but there's a USA media blackout in effect, because the MSM doesn't want to be giving attention to USA-embarrassing information, and also doesn't want to either be directing interested hackers to the Shadow Brokers' storefront of NSA hacking tools, or other people to sensitive information about other states that the USA government has stolen through hacking.

 

From the OP Shadow Brokers' post:

 

Here's a list of the Equation Group tools that TSB are offering for sale, along with their price in Bitcoins. It costs 750 BTC (roughly $1.125 million) for the entire package, with most individual items costing 10 BTC (which is roughly $15,000 USD, right now).

 

https://steemit.com/news/@mariaalmeida/hackers-threaten-to-sell-malicious-code-used-in-ransomware-attacks

 

C1n6lmqXcAEUAzI.jpg

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Yes. Among other things, some exploits in NSA's documents (which were leaked by the same group) were marked as "purchased by NSA" and "came with purchase".

Of course, this isn't air tight evidence like some credit card transaction document would be, but we will most likely never get any evidence like that even if it did happen. This is however not the first time similar claims has been made, and this is not the first hacker group with insider knowledge who makes these types of claims.

 

If several source who we know have access to the internal systems make similar claims and post fairly weak but better than nothing evidence, then it might not be 100% confirmed, but there is probably some truth to it.

 

 

Absolutely. It is possible that everything they claim is true, but it's also possible that only half of what they say is true, or maybe even less than that. Microsoft working with the NSA is pretty much confirmed at this point, but to what degree is still up in the air. Claims like Microsoft getting paid for it seems a bit far reaching but with the evidence that has been posted it is at the very least somewhat plausible.

Payment does not necessary mean money either. It could be other things such as goods or services that's the payment.

 

I don't think we have enough solid evidence to say how much or little is true right now, but it is at the very least a real possibility.

 

 

They are sometimes fast with updates, and sometimes horrendously slow. It depends on how they prioritize things. With the SMBv1 security issue they were fast (at least for the official supported OSes), but there have been issues in the past such as some discovered by Project Zero which Microsoft did not fix until the non-disclosure period (as well as the grace period) ran out (and they were forced to fix them since customers were at risk).

It depends on the risk assessment made by Microsoft. If something is very likely to be exploited and/or can cause great damage, then they will dedicate more resources to having the issue fixed. If they think it is just a minor issue that's not likely to be used for malicious activities, and/or the damage it can cause is small then fewer resources will be dedicated to getting it fixed.

 

Remotely installing and executing software is a really serious issue, so it got fixed quickly.

Things like for example being able to increase your privilege level when you got physical access to the machine, under a certain set of circumstances is not as high of a priority.

 

And yes, Microsoft are proactively looking for security holes in their products, and they are getting help from other companies too (such as Google's Project Zero).

 

 

But they do have evidence. They have posted several internal documents which were bundled with real exploits which have been used in the wild.

You're basically saying: "yes they released 1,000 exploits that were 100% confirmed to be real and stolen from the NSA, but I don't trust that the documentation which mentions that they were bought from Microsoft is true. I think they are lying about that and will therefore say there is no evidence for it!".

This is not just empty claims. The claims are from documents which have been proven to contain real information which has been verified as true.

 

Of course they could have forged that specific information, but if you think it's the rational position to have that they would have all this information which has been confirmed to be accurate and true, yet lie about this one particular thing then it sounds like you're being in denial.

 

And let me repeat before the Microsoft Defense Force gets ordered to attack me, I completely agree that the documents which were included in the leak could be forged. It might be fake claims. But I think it is illogical to label it as "no evidence" when everything else they have leaked has been confirmed to be true. If a group makes 1000 claims and 999 turns out to be true, then you should at the very least listen to the 1000th claim too and assume that there is at least some truth to it.

 

And yes, there have been multiple people and groups making similar claims. Snowden and the Shadowbrokers are not one and the same. Sadly (or maybe luckily) we do not have hundreds of groups all hacking into the NSA on a daily basis, but there are more than one source of evidence for these claims. There might only be two, three or four sources, but that's still multiple sources.

As you have pointed out, there is no airtight evidence the NSA paid MS for said exploits.   Anyone can make screen shots, you are literally taking the side of a hacker group who wants to sell (make money from) exploits.   You'd take the word of a criminal over the word of a judge based on screenshots?    As I said before, you can;t just hide money, all fraud comes to the surface. Can you please explain how MS would be able to hide payments from the government when they have to be incredibly rigorous with their audits and their finances are essentially open to the world to review. 

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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Just to confirm, what has happened is not proof of why it happened.  People need to separate their personal biases from causality.   Claiming MS was paid on such tenuous "evidence" is tantamount to claiming they played an intentional role in all this. 

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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11 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

As you have pointed out, there is no airtight evidence the NSA paid MS for said exploits.   Anyone can make screen shots, you are literally taking the side of a hacker group who wants to sell (make money from) exploits.   You'd take the word of a criminal over the word of a judge based on screenshots?    As I said before, you can;t just hide money, all fraud comes to the surface.

Your argument there is self-invalidating in that the point of the screenshots is to sell actual tools - of the type and from the same source of those which the group has proven to be in possession of. And if they're selling actual tools, such as the ones the group has proven to be in possession of, then they aren't "just screenshots". Also, you're asserting that they're criminals due to possessing USA government tools to sell, which acknowledges that the "just screenshots" are not "just screenshots".

 

Quote

MS for said exploits.   Anyone can make screen shots, you are literally taking the side of a hacker group who wants to sell (make money from) exploits.

The truth doesn't change depending on whose team you want to be a part of. Stating the truth is not about picking a team, since there is only the truth, and everything else is lesser. Picking what you will argue as being actual based out of an attitude of wanting to choose a team to be a part of is a biased action, and there's little, if any merit to arguments made out of such an attitude.

 

Quote

Can you please explain how MS would be able to hide payments from the government when they have to be incredibly rigorous with their audits and their finances are essentially open to the world to review. 

By running them through other companies, the same way the USA government does with NGOs. There are also a myriad of other ways, and that really is not a difficult thing to manage.

You own the software that you purchase - Understanding software licenses and EULAs

 

"We’ll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the american public believes is false" - William Casey, CIA Director 1981-1987

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9 minutes ago, mr moose said:

As you have pointed out, there is no airtight evidence the NSA paid MS for said exploits.   Anyone can make screen shots, you are literally taking the side of a hacker group who wants to sell (make money from) exploits.   You'd take the word of a criminal over the word of a judge based on screenshots?

OK, you have clearly not been following the development of shadowbrokers.

It was not just a screenshot. The actual documents were up on wikileaks where you could download them. Selling exploits for 10 bitcoins a piece is a new thing they are doing.

 

And like I said, the evidence is not air tight, but it is foolish to just dismiss it as a wild conspiracy theory. In fact, I'd say you're the conspiracy theories because you believe multiple independent people and groups have all agreed to make up lies to make Microsoft look bad, and they are going so far to perpetuate this lie that they are actually surrounding this one lie with several 100% real and confirmed leaks from the NSA.

Again, why do you so strongly believe this one particular claim is false, when it has been proven that they have released a massive amount of real information and tools stolen from the NSA?

 

 

9 minutes ago, mr moose said:

As I said before, you can;t just hide money, all fraud comes to the surface. Can you please explain how MS would be able to hide payments from the government when they have to be incredibly rigorous with their audits and their finances are essentially open to the world to review. 

They could probably hide it somehow.

Maybe they went to individuals and paid them to put in backdoors? In a massive project like Windows you got several people working on several components. There is not one person who has oversight of all code in Windows. So the money might not have gone to the company Microsoft where it would end up in their books. The money might have gone to individuals working at Microsoft.

Maybe they transferred the money through other companies? That's how a lot of companies avoid taxes.

You are also completely ruling out the option that it was not a monetary payment.

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There's two levels of issues to this:

 

1) The NSA, and other security services, do have plants in most major tech companies.  We know this from Cold War reports. Some were known to management; others were not.

 

2) Microsoft has huge contracts with the US Government in general. Parts of those might be a bit higher so they look the other way on certain topics.

 

Governments will pay a good amount for a fresh Zero-day.  Depending on how nasty it is, a whole lot.

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8 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

OK, you have clearly not been following the development of shadowbrokers.

It was not just a screenshot. The actual documents were up on wikileaks where you could download them. Selling exploits for 10 bitcoins a piece is a new thing they are doing.

 

And like I said, the evidence is not air tight, but it is foolish to just dismiss it as a wild conspiracy theory. In fact, I'd say you're the conspiracy theories because you believe multiple independent people and groups have all agreed to make up lies to make Microsoft look bad, and they are going so far to perpetuate this lie that they are actually surrounding this one lie with several 100% real and confirmed leaks from the NSA.

Again, why do you so strongly believe this one particular claim is false, when it has been proven that they have released a massive amount of real information and tools stolen from the NSA?

 

 

They could probably hide it somehow.

Maybe they went to individuals and paid them to put in backdoors? In a massive project like Windows you got several people working on several components. There is not one person who has oversight of all code in Windows. So the money might not have gone to the company Microsoft where it would end up in their books. The money might have gone to individuals working at Microsoft.

Maybe they transferred the money through other companies? That's how a lot of companies avoid taxes.

You are also completely ruling out the option that it was not a monetary payment.

The Shadow Brokers stuff is real.   And they've been trying to sell the first batch since last year. They finally released it because no one paid.  Now we're seeing the results.

 

Considering they had actual NSA executables, they've got deep & legitimate information. How truthful they're being about MS? No clue. Microsoft gets a huge amount via government contracts.  (Schools, State Gov, Fed Gov; you name it.)  You can hide a lot of money in that type of contracting.

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15 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

Your argument there is self-invalidating in that the point of the screenshots is to sell actual tools - of the type and from the same source of those which the group has proven to be in possession of. And if they're selling actual tools, such as the ones the group has proven to be in possession of, then they aren't "just screenshots". Also, you're asserting that they're criminals due to possessing USA government tools to sell, which acknowledges that the "just screenshots" are not "just screenshots".

 

The truth doesn't change depending on whose team you want to be a part of. Stating the truth is not about picking a team, since there is only the truth, and everything else is lesser. Picking what you will argue as being actual based out of an attitude of wanting to choose a team to be a part of is a biased action, and there's little, if any merit to arguments made out of such an attitude.

 

By running them through other companies, the same way the USA government does with NGOs. There are also a myriad of other ways, and that really is not a difficult thing to manage.

You are confusing having  the exploits with proof of how they came to be.  I have a tv in my lounge room, I can prove it with pictures, but that is not proof I paid for it, nor is it proof a paid a specific person for it.  Also it doesn't matter what path you take to transfer money it goes from one to the other and therefore has to be accounted for. This is what the securities exchange does, this is what the NRA does, this is what investors do, this is what foreign governments/companies do.  Hiding the sums they would have to be paid is not simple, and if it did happen they would have significantly more proof than what they do now.   It is far more likely that if MS intentionally put these exploits in that is was becasue they were strong armed to do so.

 

15 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

OK, you have clearly not been following the development of shadowbrokers.

It was not just a screenshot. The actual documents were up on wikileaks where you could download them. Selling exploits for 10 bitcoins a piece is a new thing they are doing.

 

And like I said, the evidence is not air tight, but it is foolish to just dismiss it as a wild conspiracy theory. In fact, I'd say you're the conspiracy theories because you believe multiple independent people and groups have all agreed to make up lies to make Microsoft look bad, and they are going so far to perpetuate this lie that they are actually surrounding this one lie with several 100% real and confirmed leaks from the NSA.

Again, why do you so strongly believe this one particular claim is false, when it has been proven that they have released a massive amount of real information and tools stolen from the NSA?

 

 

They could probably hide it somehow.

Maybe they went to individuals and paid them to put in backdoors? In a massive project like Windows you got several people working on several components. There is not one person who has oversight of all code in Windows. So the money might not have gone to the company Microsoft where it would end up in their books. The money might have gone to individuals working at Microsoft.

Maybe they transferred the money through other companies? That's how a lot of companies avoid taxes.

You are also completely ruling out the option that it was not a monetary payment.

If MS were paid, then there should be significantly more evidence from more sources, Contrary to what you say, the lack of multiple sources is not proof of a conspiracy.

 

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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19 hours ago, Nicholatian said:

If you care about running an enterprise like I do, you’ll need Windows. And if you care about securing your communications, you’ll need Linux. If you need both of those… you’re going to be SOL.

To need it is not to like it ^^

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please 🤨

sudo chmod -R 000 /*

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5 minutes ago, Sauron said:

To need it is not to like it ^^

 

This is true, and conversely true also is that not liking it is not to need it.    Which is how I feel about governments.

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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47 minutes ago, Nicholatian said:

Either you have a problem with it and you try to solve it, or you're basically just bitching about nothing. Don't like Windows but need it for work? Why don't you like it? What are you going to do to fix it for yourself? There are countless potential solutions to that problem, from Spybot to network firewalling and from dual-booting to encrypted Linux installs... none of the solutions amount to sitting around and whining over it and expecting someone to fix it for you. You're not 5 anymore.

Not liking something is not the same as sitting around whining and expecting someone else to fix it.  Pointing out the flaws and expecting it to change is actually quite reasonable client behaviour. 

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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Just now, Nicholatian said:

You're welcome to have unrealistic expectations, but it's not going to make much of a difference one way or the other unless you do something to fix it for yourself. That's pretty much my message.

so what should an average user do? 

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1 minute ago, Nicholatian said:

Nice one, lol. That rabbit hole is so old, my gosh... what even is an "average user"? Seems like everyone likens them to someone paralyzed in a coma more or less... for their own convenience in debates.

From my experience in supporting users that is rather accurate.....

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