Most Secure OS

[LinusSecurityTips]

Hey all!

 

What do you think is the most secure OS? For me it's without doubt Qubes OS: it uses Xen virtualization to compartmentalize various security domains, so you can have a VM for your untrusted browsing, one for your shopping..etc So that way if some virus gets into your untrusted browsing domain it wont affect and steal data from the other VMs... It also can limit access to peripherals for VMs, so you have to manually enable for example your microphone or camera in the settings for a specific VM. That way, by default, if there's some malware in a VM it wont take webcam pictures of you. Also it has something called Whonix so you can have a whole VM's network routed through the TOR network for anonymity if you want. But the real question: can it run Crysis? Only one way to found out: Linus should really make a video on this topic and try out Crysis.

[Droidbot]

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/533965/why-is-security-through-obscurity-a-bad-idea

 

 

[LinusSecurityTips]

Just now, Droidbot said:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/533965/why-is-security-through-obscurity-a-bad-idea

 

 

Qubes model is based on security by isolation and compartmentalization (using virtual machines), not security through obscurity.

[DimasRMDO]

I use Tails OS

Hands down.

 

I've used Qubes OS before and it worked great, but I switched to Ubuntu since it's easier to manage  

 

@Mike_The_B0ss

[LinusSecurityTips]

@DimasRMDO There's also one called Subgraph OS, it's easier to use than Qubes (but it's less secure, it only offers sandboxes and not full machine virtualization), but it's still alpha and has quiet a few bugs

[Droidbot]

6 minutes ago, LinusSecurityTips said:

Qubes model is based on security by isolation and compartmentalization (using virtual machines), not security through obscurity.

Still obscurity, no application expects to be run in a virtual machine besides malware

And VM escapes are definitely possible, so it's not secure

 

Running Linux for the sake of security is still security through obscurity - you're running an obscure operating system for the point that you don't have to reinstall every 3 months like paranoid Windows users. 

 

Besides the fact that the word 'Qubes' looks like a misspelling of 'Pubes'

[DimasRMDO]

7 minutes ago, LinusSecurityTips said:

@DimasRMDO There's also one called Subgraph OS, it's easier to use than Qubes (but it's less secure, it only offers sandboxes and not full machine virtualization), but it's still alpha and has quiet a few bugs

I'll probably wait and check it again once it's out from alpha stage.

[Princess Luna]

Isn't Windows 10 safe enough for domestic usage any ways? Sometimes I do feel people may go too far on their need for data safety...

[rn8686]

Just now, Princess Cadence said:

Isn't Windows 10 safe enough for domestic usage any ways? Sometimes I do feel people may go too far on their need for data safety...

Windows 10 privacy? Funny joke 

[LinusSecurityTips]

Just now, Droidbot said:

Still obscurity, no application expects to be run in a virtual machine besides malware

How is that obscurity? If there's some malware in a virtual machine it wont affect others, so getting spyware on your untrusted browsing virtual machine wont affect your bank or bitcoin virtual machine.

Just now, Droidbot said:

And VM escapes are definitely possible, so it's not secure

They're possible, but they're extremely rare. Xen is the thing that is used by Amazon AWS, Linode, ... and other large cloud companies. Besides that you're missing the obvious point that in your Windows it only takes a simple bug in your browser for a malware to exploit and boom it has access to all of your files, data.. in Qubes it will only have access to things in that VM, nothing else. And you can use Disposable VMs to use them once and getting them deleted once you're done.

[Princess Luna]

Just now, rn8686 said:

Windows 10 privacy? Funny joke 

There are inumerous ways to kill Microsoft telemetry should you bother yourself enough to go after it and this isn't about privacy this is about over all safety of your data against actual "evil" entities rather than Microsoft.

[LinusSecurityTips]

4 minutes ago, Princess Cadence said:

There are inumerous ways to kill Microsoft telemetry should you bother yourself enough to go after it and this isn't about privacy this is about over all safety of your data against actual "evil" entities rather than Microsoft.

Even when told not to, Windows 10 just can’t stop talking to Microsoft. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/even-when-told-not-to-windows-10-just-cant-stop-talking-to-microsoft/

[DimasRMDO]

Just now, huilun02 said:

Any OS not hooked up to any network is 100% safe

Like, no hardware capability for wired or wireless transmission

Back to Windows XP life where there was no internet available (at least at my location).

Good old days playing pinball.

No virus, until infected USB was plugged in

[rn8686]

11 hours ago, Princess Cadence said:

There are inumerous ways to kill Microsoft telemetry should you bother yourself enough to go after it and this isn't about privacy this is about over all safety of your data against actual "evil" entities rather than Microsoft.

You can to an extent (Even though Microsoft ignores many settings), but I still wouldn't keep any sensitive information on there. Define "evil"? Criminals? Oppressive governments? NSA (Or equivalent intelligence agencies, especially those who dont respect your privacy)? 

 

Edit: It really depends on your threat model. Whether its a small gang of criminals, a large corporation, local law enforcement, or even state actors (Intelligence agencies or oppressive governments). 

[LinusSecurityTips]

5 minutes ago, huilun02 said:

Any OS not hooked up to any network is 100% safe

Like, no hardware capability for wired or wireless transmission

This isn't true, look up: Air gap malware. (in Qubes OS you are in control of which VM has access to your network, and which traffic is accepted (for example for a mail VM I will only allow it to access the mailing server and nothing else), and there is by default a vault VM where you put your password manager and stuff)

[Droidbot]

1 minute ago, LinusSecurityTips said:

How is that obscurity? If there's some malware in a virtual machine it wont affect others, so getting spyware on your untrusted browsing virtual machine wont affect your bank or bitcoin virtual machine.

They're possible, but they're extremely rare. Xen is the thing that is used by Amazon AWS, Linode, ... and other large cloud companies. Besides that you're missing the obvious point that in your Windows it only takes a simple bug in your browser for a malware to exploit and boom it has access to all of your files, data.. in Qubes it will only have access to things in that VM, nothing else. And you can use Disposable VMs to use them once and getting them deleted once you're done.

I know where Xen is used. But VM escapes are quite common, surprisingly. 

 

Take this: https://www.google.com/url?q=https://arstechnica.com/security/2017/03/hack-that-escapes-vm-by-exploiting-edge-browser-fetches-105000-at-pwn2own/&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwj00qT_trDTAhWCmJQKHVt2DDkQFggLMAI&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNFjIe1wRNmmxQd24XASW1J68OuQpw

and this (except this talks about bitflipping, which while it can be used to exploit other VMs and the host it's quite niche at this point): https://arstechnica.com/security/2016/08/new-attack-steals-private-crypto-keys-by-corrupting-data-in-computer-memory/

and (while it's a little old, this): https://arstechnica.com/security/2015/10/xen-patches-7-year-old-bug-that-shattered-hypervisor-security/

and the exploitation of above: https://arstechnica.com/security/2015/05/extremely-serious-virtual-machine-bug-threatens-cloud-providers-everywhere/

 

And even with the mention of Subgraph above: 

 

If an attacker wants your machine and your data and has some sweet exploits on their hands, they can hit you. 

13 minutes ago, LinusSecurityTips said:

How is that obscurity? If there's some malware in a virtual machine it wont affect others, so getting spyware on your untrusted browsing virtual machine wont affect your bank or bitcoin virtual machine.

Because putting all your apps (and possibly malware) into VMs is just like hiding your money under a tree as put above - you're not expecting someone to look under that PARTICULAR tree - you're not expecting an attacker to realize that your operating system is putting all its applications into virtual machines. 
 

But if someone saw you put the money under the tree, and stole it from you, that's your fault. 

If someone saw that you were using VMs to store your passwords, etc, and used an exploit to steal them from you, that's your fault. 

 

[LinusSecurityTips]

2 minutes ago, Droidbot said:

I know where Xen is used. But VM escapes are quite common, surprisingly. 

 

Take this: https://www.google.com/url?q=https://arstechnica.com/security/2017/03/hack-that-escapes-vm-by-exploiting-edge-browser-fetches-105000-at-pwn2own/&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwj00qT_trDTAhWCmJQKHVt2DDkQFggLMAI&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNFjIe1wRNmmxQd24XASW1J68OuQpw

and this (except this talks about bitflipping, which while it can be used to exploit other VMs and the host it's quite niche at this point): https://arstechnica.com/security/2016/08/new-attack-steals-private-crypto-keys-by-corrupting-data-in-computer-memory/

and (while it's a little old, this): https://arstechnica.com/security/2015/10/xen-patches-7-year-old-bug-that-shattered-hypervisor-security/

and the exploitation of above: https://arstechnica.com/security/2015/05/extremely-serious-virtual-machine-bug-threatens-cloud-providers-everywhere/

How is that "quite common" in comparison to regular exploits that pwn the whole system?

2 minutes ago, Droidbot said:

And even with the mention of Subgraph above: 

 

 

That bug has been fixed in Subgraph.

 

2 minutes ago, Droidbot said:

If an attacker wants your machine and your data and has some sweet exploits on their hands, they can hit you. 

Because putting all your apps (and possibly malware) into VMs is just like hiding your money under a tree as put above - you're not expecting someone to look under that PARTICULAR tree - you're not expecting an attacker to realize that your operating system is putting all its applications into virtual machines. 
 

But if someone saw you put the money under the tree, and stole it from you, that's your fault. 

If someone saw that you were using VMs to store your passwords, etc, and used an exploit to steal them from you, that's your fault. 

 

The point is that Qubes makes it harder for them (and not outright impossible), it's no longer sufficient that you pwn his browser to take control of all of his system, you also need a VM exploit for Xen, which is much more difficult.

[BuckGup]

59 minutes ago, huilun02 said:

Any OS not hooked up to any network is 100% safe

Like, no hardware capability for wired or wireless transmission

It's called air gapping and secure companies actually do this. They rip of most things on the computers like speakers, which can actually be used to transmit and accept malware, and various other various components.

[Dat Guy]

1 hour ago, LinusSecurityTips said:

What do you think is the most secure OS?

 

Except the usual obscure systems which just don't have any malware because nobody bothers to write any for them, the most secure operating systems are OpenBSD and Windows 10.

Qubes OS is still horrible because it uses the notoriously broken Linux kernel.

[LinusSecurityTips]

5 minutes ago, Dat Guy said:

 

Except the usual obscure systems which just don't have any malware because nobody bothers to write any for them, the most secure operating systems are OpenBSD and Windows 10.

They're both monolithic kernel (a simple bug and boum whole system is compromised, with your whole data) unlike Qubes. (Besides that you can create OpenBSD and Windows10 VMs inside Qubes OS)

 

Qubes OS is still horrible because it uses the notoriously broken Linux kernel.

Qubes uses Xen, and not a Linux kernel, where did you get that idea from?

[Dat Guy]

Just now, LinusSecurityTips said:

They're both monolithic kernel (a simple bug and boum whole system is compromised, with your whole data)

Which does not necessarily make them less secure.

 

Just now, LinusSecurityTips said:

Qubes uses Xen, and not a Linux kernel, where did you get that idea from?

Xen is not a kernel.

[LinusSecurityTips]

Just now, Dat Guy said:

Which does not necessarily make them less secure.

It does when compared to Qubes, where simply hacking one VM wont compromise other ones with your sensitive data.

Just now, Dat Guy said:

Xen is not a kernel.

But you said: "Qubes OS is still horrible because it uses the notoriously broken Linux kernel."

[Dat Guy]

Just now, LinusSecurityTips said:

It does when compared to Qubes

So you only created this topic to advertise Qubes OS, do I understand you correctly here? Because the only answer you seem to accept is "Qubes OS is soooo secure".

 

Just now, LinusSecurityTips said:

where simply hacking one VM wont compromise other ones with your sensitive data.

Good systems can't be hacked.  

 

Just now, LinusSecurityTips said:

But you said: "Qubes OS is still horrible because it uses the notoriously broken Linux kernel."

Which kernel do you use with Qubes OS?

[sgzUk74r3T3BCGmRJ]

?

[LinusSecurityTips]

Just now, Dat Guy said:

So you only created this topic to advertise Qubes OS, do I understand you correctly here? Because the only answer you seem to accept is "Qubes OS is soooo secure".

Stating my opinion is not promoting something.

Just now, Dat Guy said:

Good systems can't be hacked.  

Every system - in theory and practice - can be hacked. The point I made was that Qubes will help you when you were already hacked (to be precise when one of your VMs got compromised) whereas other systems (Windows 10, OpenBSD) wont.

Just now, Dat Guy said:

Which kernel do you use with Qubes OS?

I can use any OS I want with Qubes (and hence any kernel). But Qubes itself is entirely based on Xen, and not Linux.