Looking for a production monitor for video editing and color grading

[.spider.]

1 hour ago, AkiraDaarkst said:

For a proper HDR editing workflow you need to be able to judge how the colors will look on a display that's capable of reproducing Rec2020 to some degree (if not 100% of it, but still larger than Rec709) because if you try to grade in HDR on SDR displays the colors will look washed out and if you assume that all you need to do is adjust things like increasing the saturation up then yes the colors will look nice on a non HDR display but when viewing on a true HDR display they can look oversaturated.

You are confusing HDR with wide gamut and rec 2020 with rec 2100

[AbrahamoLincolni]

5 hours ago, AkiraDaarkst said:

Except for one thing: I don't really see them as true Production monitors.  They are more like Field monitors.  Yes the SmallHD monitors are very bright, tough, and offers some pretty amazing features.  I'm not saying they are bad in anyway, except they also lack some features of Production monitors from brands like Sony and JVC which have some features that are oriented better towards studio/broadcast use.

 

Also, the HDR versions of the SmallHD production monitors are not something I would consider as true HDR monitors for people who want something for an HDR editing workflow.  I was chatting with one of their people about it a few days ago and their 1300, 1700, 2400, and 3200 series monitors do not really support Rec2020 color space.  You can send a video signal that was recorded or graded for Rec2020 but it will get mapped down to Rec709.  For a proper HDR editing workflow you need to be able to judge how the colors will look on a display that's capable of reproducing Rec2020 to some degree (if not 100% of it, but still larger than Rec709) because if you try to grade in HDR on SDR displays the colors will look washed out and if you assume that all you need to do is adjust things like increasing the saturation up then yes the colors will look nice on a non HDR display but when viewing on a true HDR display they can look oversaturated.

I sort of figured that when looking at the specs of the SmallHD monitors.  they mentioned HDR but didn't specify any of the color spaces or Dolby or HLG associated with HDR and the only monitors I see that support HDR are those expensive canon and sony monitors.  but I can still do HDR'ish editing on a 10-bit monitor, right?

[.spider.]

1 hour ago, AbrahamoLincolni said:

 but I can still do HDR'ish editing on a 10-bit monitor, right?

Wants to buy a reference monitor to do HDR'ish editing.? 

 

No, no HDR without ST2084 transfer function.

[AkiraDaarkst]

1 hour ago, AbrahamoLincolni said:

I sort of figured that when looking at the specs of the SmallHD monitors.  they mentioned HDR but didn't specify any of the color spaces or Dolby or HLG associated with HDR and the only monitors I see that support HDR are those expensive canon and sony monitors.  but I can still do HDR'ish editing on a 10-bit monitor, right?

OK, here is the color grading you can do in Premiere:

 

1. Normal non HDR color grading

Create your timeline sequence, edit the video clips, cut and layer them however you want.

Go to Lumetri Color Panel, start color grading by adjusting the various sliders, applying the LUT files, adjust curves and color wheels until you get the look you want.

 

2. The HDR'ish color grading I talked about when you asked sometime ago.

Same as before, edit the timeline sequence as you desire.

Go to Lumetri Color Panel, but before adjusting any of the sliders and settings, you do the following:

• In the Lumetri Color Panel enable High Dynamic Range mode
• In the Lumetri Scopes window, bottom right corner switch from 8-bit to HDR to see expanded Parade and Waveform
• (This is sort of optional) Right click on the Lumetri Scopes window, and change color space to 2020. On my 10-bit computer monitor, changing this doesn't do anything so you may need a monitor with Rec2020 support to actually see some change.  I'll get back to you in a few weeks when the new monitors and displays arrive at my studio.

Start color grading, but you will notice the Creative section of the Lumetri Color panel is now disabled and you can not use custom LUTs.  You can quickly get better colors with adjustments of fewer sliders.  And the colors look better than the non HDR color grading without relying on LUTs.

 

Take great care with these two sliders:

• HDR White slider (found in the Basic section and Color Wheels)
• HDR Range slider (found in the Curves section)

Export your video.

 

3. True HDR color grading and exporting

Same as above for HDR'ish color grading, but this time you really need at least one of two items:

• A production monitor that features stuff for HDR like Rec2020 color space, HLG and Dolby Vision, like the $20.000 - $30,000 Canon or Sony monitors
• and/or a TV that is HDR capable like a Samsung flat panel TV

Same as above, enable HDR in Lumetri Panel and in the Scopes.  But this time when exporting you are limited to these formats (as far as I can see at the moment in the export window):

• JPEG 2000 MXF (Switch to RGB 4:4:4 12-bit PQ in the Chroma and Depth drop down and then select Rec2020 in Color Primaries)
• HEVC (You need to enable Main10 profile and check Rec 2020 color primaries)

Export it but if you watch these videos on a non HDR display the colors will look washed out.

[AbrahamoLincolni]

14 minutes ago, AkiraDaarkst said:

OK, here is the color grading you can do in Premiere:

 

1. Normal non HDR color grading

Create your timeline sequence, edit the video clips, cut and layer them however you want.

Go to Lumetri Color Panel, start color grading by adjusting the various sliders, applying the LUT files, adjust curves and color wheels until you get the look you want.

 

2. The HDR'ish color grading I talked about when you asked sometime ago.

Same as before, edit the timeline sequence as you desire.

Go to Lumetri Color Panel, but before adjusting any of the sliders and settings, you do the following:

• In the Lumetri Color Panel enable High Dynamic Range mode
• In the Lumetri Scopes window, bottom right corner switch from 8-bit to HDR to see expanded Parade and Waveform
• (This is sort of optional) Right click on the Lumetri Scopes window, and change color space to 2020. On my 10-bit computer monitor, changing this doesn't do anything so you may need a monitor with Rec2020 support to actually see some change.  I'll get back to you in a few weeks when the new monitors and displays arrive at my studio.

Start color grading, but you will notice the Creative section of the Lumetri Color panel is now disabled and you can not use custom LUTs.  You can quickly get better colors with adjustments of fewer sliders.  And the colors look better than the non HDR color grading without relying on LUTs.

 

Take great care with these two sliders:

• HDR White slider (found in the Basic section and Color Wheels)
• HDR Range slider (found in the Curves section)

Export your video.

 

3. True HDR color grading and exporting

Same as above for HDR'ish color grading, but this time you really need at least one of two items:

• A production monitor that features stuff for HDR like Rec2020 color space, HLG and Dolby Vision, like the $20.000 - $30,000 Canon or Sony monitors
• and/or a TV that is HDR capable like a Samsung flat panel TV

Same as above, enable HDR in Lumetri Panel and in the Scopes.  But this time when exporting you are limited to these formats (as far as I can see at the moment in the export window):

• JPEG 2000 MXF (Switch to RGB 4:4:4 12-bit PQ in the Chroma and Depth drop down and then select Rec2020 in Color Primaries)
• HEVC (You need to enable Main10 profile and check Rec 2020 color primaries)

Export it but if you watch these videos on a non HDR display the colors will look washed out.

Thanks for the explanation mate.  This is very helpful.

[AkiraDaarkst]

18 minutes ago, AbrahamoLincolni said:

Thanks for the explanation mate.  This is very helpful.

By the way, I forgot to mention that you can technically color grade and export true HDR content using a non-HDR monitor.  But in this case you will have to make assumptions about how the colors will look for someone viewing your export on their HDR capable screen (if they own one).

 

Right now I'm uploading to YouTube something I color graded in HDR'ish, but exported with Rec2020 primaries enabled.  I want to see how YouTube processes the video and to see if I need to enable SDR conform in the export window.  The colors look great when I export with Rec2020 primaries disabled, but washed out when I watch the enabled version on my desktop.

[.spider.]

51 minutes ago, AkiraDaarkst said:

 

• and/or a TV that is HDR capable like a Samsung flat panel TV

 

How do you force an HDR transfer function on a consumer TV?

[.spider.]

51 minutes ago, AkiraDaarkst said:

The colors look great when I export with Rec2020 primaries disabled, but washed out when I watch the enabled version on my desktop.

Just use a proper video renderer like madVr and everything will be fine. 

It is just washed out because you are using a video renderer without colorspace conversion. 

 

 

[AbrahamoLincolni]

54 minutes ago, AkiraDaarkst said:

By the way, I forgot to mention that you can technically color grade and export true HDR content using a non-HDR monitor.  But in this case you will have to make assumptions about how the colors will look for someone viewing your export on their HDR capable screen (if they own one).

 

Right now I'm uploading to YouTube something I color graded in HDR'ish, but exported with Rec2020 primaries enabled.  I want to see how YouTube processes the video and to see if I need to enable SDR conform in the export window.  The colors look great when I export with Rec2020 primaries disabled, but washed out when I watch the enabled version on my desktop.

All this talk about HDR has me thinking now.  Should I get a TV with HDR support instead of a production monitor?

[AkiraDaarkst]

8 minutes ago, AbrahamoLincolni said:

All this talk about HDR has me thinking now.  Should I get a TV with HDR support instead of a production monitor?

If you just need something to help with color grading (and no other purpose) perhaps a TV would be better than a production monitor, though keep in mind that a TV doesn't offer the signal processing/monitoring features that a production monitor offers.  If you can afford it, get both.  In my studio we're getting both a production monitor and a LG TV with their implementation of HDR10 and Dolby Vision.  This way we can check our color grades and get an idea of how it will look when our audience/clients view the videos at home.  A good color grading studio basically has a production monitor, a good quality consumer TV and perhaps a projector so that the colorist, editor, producer, clients can all judge how the video looks before it reaches the final distribution stage.

[AbrahamoLincolni]

On 2/6/2017 at 7:23 PM, AkiraDaarkst said:

If you just need something to help with color grading (and no other purpose) perhaps a TV would be better than a production monitor, though keep in mind that a TV doesn't offer the signal processing/monitoring features that a production monitor offers.  If you can afford it, get both.  In my studio we're getting both a production monitor and a LG TV with their implementation of HDR10 and Dolby Vision.  This way we can check our color grades and get an idea of how it will look when our audience/clients view the videos at home.  A good color grading studio basically has a production monitor, a good quality consumer TV and perhaps a projector so that the colorist, editor, producer, clients can all judge how the video looks before it reaches the final distribution stage.

That's a good point, but I'm not working as a filmmaker.  I shoot some video for events like weddings and they mostly want something that looks romantic and beautiful.

[AkiraDaarkst]

9 hours ago, AbrahamoLincolni said:

That's a good point, but I'm not working as a filmmaker.  I shoot some video for events like weddings and they mostly want something that looks romantic and beautiful.

In my point of view, for those sort of clients you probably might not need a production monitor.  You have a color accurate Eizo monitor already, get a TV and make judgements of the color grading based on what you see with your eyes.  If your clients like the color grading done on your monitor and TV they will probably like it when they go back home and view it on their TVs or displays.  It's not like they will be showing their wedding videos in an IMAX theater or cable TV.

[AbrahamoLincolni]

19 hours ago, AkiraDaarkst said:

In my point of view, for those sort of clients you probably might not need a production monitor.  You have a color accurate Eizo monitor already, get a TV and make judgements of the color grading based on what you see with your eyes.  If your clients like the color grading done on your monitor and TV they will probably like it when they go back home and view it on their TVs or displays.  It's not like they will be showing their wedding videos in an IMAX theater or cable TV.

Alright thanks, I will look at some nice HDR TVs then.

[AkiraDaarkst]

5 hours ago, AbrahamoLincolni said:

Alright thanks, I will look at some nice HDR TVs then.

Go for LG instead of Samsung, Samsung's HDR as far as I can see on their website is called HDR1000 which may not be exactly the same as HDR-10 that Sony is trying to push.  LG on the other hand has TVs that support HDR Super and according to their site it simply means that they support both HDR-10 and Dolby Vision.

 

An LG Super UHD 4K TV that's about 50 inches in size should cost around $1000, give or take a couple of hundred depending on where you are located in the world.

 

Today I was at an electronics store and they had a Samsung 65 inch HDR curved panel on display running some demo footage.  The colors look amazing, however I became a bit skeptical (very likely due to the demo video I guess which may not have been properly graded for HDR).  But the display was fantastic.