Tim Cook: "Great desktop Macs are in the works"

[vanished]

11 minutes ago, Kloaked said:

Which is huge if you're recording with live instruments. Any delay from what you're hearing and what you're playing will throw everything off in the mix.

I'm not sure I know exactly what you mean by this...

 

11 minutes ago, Kloaked said:

If you were to actually sit down and try to mix together a ton of tracks, it gets really annoying having to align everything to be on time when you could have just done it while recording and go from there for everything else that you need to do to the mix, which can take a super long time by itself.

But you have to do that anyway.  Even the Mac delay - though much smaller - is still present and would add up if you had many tracks.  If nothing was done to align them, it would be noticeable after a few.  And if you have to align them, how much you have to shift them by doesn't really matter - it takes the same effort to move it by 1 ms or 1 hour.

 

11 minutes ago, Kloaked said:

There is an ASIO4ALL driver that gets used for Windows to dramatically decrease latency between what the computer hears from the interface and what you hear from the computer, but Windows being Windows this driver will often crash and/or cause other issues like plugins not working properly (which is a problem I'm having right now personally).

If the necessary tools on Windows have consistently been unreliable, yeah I can see that being an issue!  Fair enough  

[Guest Kloaked]

Just now, Ryan_Vickers said:

I'm not sure I know exactly what you mean by this...

Lets say you're recording a guitar, but you are going direct-in and not recording from an amp with a microphone. You also want to apply effects to this with plugins in the post-fx module rather than input so that you can change it later, which is what a lot of people like to do since it's convenient to go back and change these sound effects while you mix everything. Since you have to listen to what the computer is outputting to your sound device (so that you can hear the effects that are applied) rather than you listening to the instrument directly from your audio interface (which would be a dry signal with no effects), there is going to be enough latency between what you hear and what you're actually playing. If you record this way, your entire mix will be thrown off, and it will even make it difficult to record to begin with.

 

5 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

But you have to do that anyway.  Even the Mac delay - though much smaller - is still present and would add up if you had many tracks.  If nothing was done to align them, it would be noticeable after a few.  And if you have to align them, how much you have to shift them by doesn't really matter - it takes the same effort to move it by 1 ms or 1 hour.

You don't have nearly as much work, though, which is my point. The latency is so small on MacOS, and if you're recording in segments you wouldn't have to align anything since the timing will be where it needs to be anyways. It's more of a quality of life change from Windows to MacOS, but it saves a lot of time and anger, and sometimes hardware when you feel like throwing your mouse across the room when your DAW plugins don't work due to your audio driver bugging out.

 

8 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

If the necessary tools on Windows have consistently been unreliable, yeah I can see that being an issue!  Fair enough  

The latency issue is also existent on Android. I don't know if you've heard of this, but there are people who use iPhones/iPads or Macbooks to replace their guitar amps since it's getting to be extremely convenient to not have a $2000k amplifier that has tubes you would eventually need to replace; when instead you could have a laptop or tablet simulate any amp available for you and all you need is a power amp/mixer and a cabinet - or ignore power amps/mixers completely and just run directly into the PA system. These simulators are getting extremely close to the real thing nowadays and they're only getting closer.

 

You can't do any of that with Windows (reliably) or Android due to both OSes having an extreme amount of audio latency and are unreliable.

[SurvivorNVL]

I'll buy an iMac.  Give it an 8-core Zen chip, and an RX490 with a 5K HDR OLED screen and standard 64gb Ram to start.  Apple just needs to move backwards and get a PS/2 port.  

[jagdtigger]

6 minutes ago, Kloaked said:

Lets say you're recording a guitar, but you are going direct-in and not recording from an amp with a microphone. You also want to apply effects to this with plugins in the post-fx module rather than input so that you can change it later, which is what a lot of people like to do since it's convenient to go back and change these sound effects while you mix everything. Since you have to listen to what the computer is outputting to your sound device (so that you can hear the effects that are applied) rather than you listening to the instrument directly from your audio interface (which would be a dry signal with no effects), there is going to be enough latency between what you hear and what you're actually playing. If you record this way, your entire mix will be thrown off, and it will even make it difficult to record to begin with.

 

You don't have nearly as much work, though, which is my point. The latency is so small on MacOS, and if you're recording in segments you wouldn't have to align anything since the timing will be where it needs to be anyways. It's more of a quality of life change from Windows to MacOS, but it saves a lot of time and anger, and sometimes hardware when you feel like throwing your mouse across the room when your DAW plugins don't work due to your audio driver bugging out.

 

The latency issue is also existent on Android. I don't know if you've heard of this, but there are people who use iPhones/iPads or Macbooks to replace their guitar amps since it's getting to be extremely convenient to not have a $2000k amplifier that has tubes you would eventually need to replace; when instead you could have a laptop or tablet simulate any amp available for you and all you need is a power amp/mixer and a cabinet - or ignore power amps/mixers completely and just run directly into the PA system. These simulators are getting extremely close to the real thing nowadays and they're only getting closer.

 

You can't do any of that with Windows (reliably) or Android due to both OSes having an extreme amount of audio latency and are unreliable.

Who the hell still uses those things? Transistor pretty much outperform them on every spec that counts in the audio industry...

[Guest Kloaked]

Just now, jagdtigger said:

Who the hell still uses those things? Transistor pretty much outperform them on every spec that counts in the audio industry...

Solid state amps generally don't have the same tone that tube amps do. Kemper, AxeFX and Bias are exceptions but they're still not quite the real thing. Plus the money to get setup in that is insane so it's still niche compared to tube amps. It's really convenient but it's not majorly adopted yet.

[vanished]

12 minutes ago, Kloaked said:

Lets say you're recording a guitar, but you are going direct-in and not recording from an amp with a microphone. You also want to apply effects to this with plugins in the post-fx module rather than input so that you can change it later, which is what a lot of people like to do since it's convenient to go back and change these sound effects while you mix everything. Since you have to listen to what the computer is outputting to your sound device (so that you can hear the effects that are applied) rather than you listening to the instrument directly from your audio interface (which would be a dry signal with no effects), there is going to be enough latency between what you hear and what you're actually playing. If you record this way, your entire mix will be thrown off, and it will even make it difficult to record to begin with.

Fair enough, and yeah, I've done a similar thing before myself and yes, the latency does make it difficult if not impossible to play  

I just figured no one would do this in a professional scenario...

12 minutes ago, Kloaked said:

You don't have nearly as much work, though, which is my point. The latency is so small on MacOS, and if you're recording in segments you wouldn't have to align anything since the timing will be where it needs to be anyways.

I still don't think I can say I agree with this though.  Be it Windows or Mac OS, everything you record will be offset by whatever the latency was, and will need adjustment.  Most programs I know of let you set a number that it will automatically shift the track by as soon as you finish recording that track, which in both cases should be enough, but if it's not, you'll still have to fine tune

12 minutes ago, Kloaked said:

The latency issue is also existent on Android. I don't know if you've heard of this, but there are people who use iPhones/iPads or Macbooks to replace their guitar amps since it's getting to be extremely convenient to not have a $2000k amplifier that has tubes you would eventually need to replace; when instead you could have a laptop or tablet simulate any amp available for you and all you need is a power amp/mixer and a cabinet - or ignore power amps/mixers completely and just run directly into the PA system. These simulators are getting extremely close to the real thing nowadays and they're only getting closer.

 

You can't do any of that with Windows (reliably) or Android due to both OSes having an extreme amount of audio latency and are unreliable.

I had heard of that and I thought they were weird  

[jagdtigger]

16 minutes ago, Kloaked said:

Solid state amps generally don't have the same tone that tube amps do. Kemper, AxeFX and Bias are exceptions but they're still not quite the real thing. Plus the money to get setup in that is insane so it's still niche compared to tube amps. It's really convenient but it's not majorly adopted yet.

AFAIK that "tube tone" comes from the fact that tubes have a higher level of distortion than quality solid state transistors... So yeah, its confusing . Why anyone would like to allow a "museum fugitive" tube amp distort their work...

Edited December 21, 2016 by jagdtigger

[Guest Kloaked]

Just now, jagdtigger said:

AFAIK that "tube tone" comes from the fact that tubes have a higher level of distortion than quality solid state transistors... So yeah, its confusing . Why anyone would like to allow a "museum fugitive" tube amp...

I'm not an electrical engineer so I couldn't tell you why, but tubes have a tone that you can't get with digital processing just yet, but it's close enough for most people to not notice if they didn't have anything to compare it to. I don't think it's the distortion or how much it has.

[Arri]

6 minutes ago, Kloaked said:

I'm not an electrical engineer so I couldn't tell you why, but tubes have a tone that you can't get with digital processing just yet, but it's close enough for most people to not notice if they didn't have anything to compare it to. I don't think it's the distortion or how much it has.

From my short time as an audiophile I remember seeing people spend thousands on quality tubes to pair with their headphones. They would even have certain tubes with certain headphones so that they complemented or enhanced each other's characteristics. Not sure the merits of tubes vs solid state but it seems as though the connoisseurs still like their tubes.  

[Guest Kloaked]

2 minutes ago, Arri said:

From my short time as an audiophile I remember seeing people spend thousands on quality tubes to pair with their headphones. They would even have certain tubes with certain headphones so that they complemented or enhanced each other's characteristics. Not sure the merits of tubes vs solid state but it seems as though the connoisseurs still like their tubes.  

I mean more for guitar amps. Headphones amps are probably a totally different story.

[kirashi]

1 hour ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

--SNIP--

Here's where I have a problem with the "Mac is better for audio stuff" statement:

1. This delay thing is the only difference I'm aware of
2. It shouldn't even matter.  As far as I can imagine, there's two kinds of things you'll be doing - live monitoring (ie, handled by external hardware such that latency is practically 0 ms) and recording, in which case the delay doesn't matter since it's going into an editing program anyway.

So am I missing something here or does everyone just keep saying that because they heard it once?

1 hour ago, Kloaked said:

I'm saying this because of experience.

Which is huge if you're recording with live instruments. Any delay from what you're hearing and what you're playing will throw everything off in the mix.

--SNIP--

1 hour ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

But you have to do that anyway.  Even the Mac delay - though much smaller - is still present and would add up if you had many tracks.  If nothing was done to align them, it would be noticeable after a few.  And if you have to align them, how much you have to shift them by doesn't really matter - it takes the same effort to move it by 1 ms or 1 hour.

This is exactly the epitome of using any kind of Digital Audio Workstation, if the audio delay affects you personally. Some people (like myself) cannot even play instruments through DAWs if there's any kind of perceived delay because it throws off their internal time count and coordination. Others don't have an issue, or are much more practiced in this matter, and thus can handle a larger audio delay. Neither is wrong or right here - it boils down to your own personal abilities.

 

The way that Unix-based OS's handle hardware driver modules compared to the way Windows' own Audio pipeline interfaces with the same hardware is why there's such a difference in delay. ASIO4ALL drivers definitely help on a Windows system, but there's always going to be a larger overhead since everything still has to be piped through the Audio Pipeline as dictated by the Windows kernel. Unix-like OS's support audio driver modules that hook into the kernel on boot or at the start of a desktop user session, but which interface directly with whatever audio interface you're using after they're hooked.

 

This is a HUGE oversimplification, but essentially explains the delay in simplistic terms. Even I don't fully understand the technical details; I just know roughly how drivers hook into Unix-like systems compared to Windows. HINT: Much more reliably. The fact that you can fully update all portions of a Unix-like OS (most of the time) without ever having to shutdown the system speaks numbers in regards to how modules integrate with the kernel. It'd be nice to see Windows catch up to the same level one day, but that'd require a rewrite of the kernel and probably a lot more open-sourcing from Microsoft, so it's not going to happen.

 

 

Why does this bother me at all? Well, I've been dabbling with DAW software since early 2008, and still have not yet found a software platform with no perceivable delay or lag when adding effects, mastering, mixing, or simply trying to record audio. I still prefer dedicated rackmount audio hardware, even if it happens to be a fancy computer box on the inside, because dedicated hardware is designed to operate more efficiently than any piece of software could, assuming it was engineered this way, of course.

 

I'd love to acquire something like bluetooth based ROLI Blocks for iOS devices, but from previous experience using other bluetooth audio hardware, I'm just not coordinated enough to use it for real time audio recording. It's very similar to how some people cannot use Wacom Intuos Drawing Tablets to save their lives despite being able to create artwork masterpieces with pastels or watercolors on real canvas or artboards. But again, neither is right or wrong: the tools are available, it's up to each of us to learn how to use them.  

[Peepnbrick]

7 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

"It’s unique compared to the notebook because you can pack a lot more performance in a desktop ... a greater variety of I/O"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

~

 

In all seriousness, much like the Apple Watch, which came out way before the tech was ready for it to come out, Apple envisions a future where laptops are just as powerful as desktops, and you'll be able to carry your workstation around with you wherever you go.

 

The problem with this is that people don't care if a laptop comes out in 2 years that's as powerful as their desktop today. Really, they want a laptop thats as powerful as my desktop today. And these are the people who want that top of the line performance that you just can't get with the thermal restrictions in a laptop (short of inventing Room Temp superconductors...). Apple will never be able to satisfy that group of people who want desktops with any laptop that they come out with as the software keeps getting more complex, the capabilities keep expand, and people continue to expect more.

[TheReal1980]

Just buy a dual CPU Mac Pro between 2010-2012 and upgrade it to 5.1, get 64GB of ram, install a Nvme SSD card, install a TitanX, install USB 3.0 card, install new WiFi card and Bluetooth card (from Macbook Air) = done.

And yes it can be done, check YouTube.

[rn8686]

10 hours ago, kelvinhall05 said:

Does anyone even use iMacs?

My school library is full of them, about a good 20-30 (Really old 2011 models though with hardware that was old then), they also give us mac air laptops and teachers use a mix of airs or pros. 

[Albatross]

14 hours ago, kelvinhall05 said:

Does anyone even use iMacs?

 

Oddly enough, a lot of people.

[SSL]

5 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

AFAIK that "tube tone" comes from the fact that tubes have a higher level of distortion than quality solid state transistors...

 

Nope. Tubes themselves are (can be) more linear than transistors.

 

A good tube amp (for audio reproduction) shouldn't have "tube tone". Tubey amps are for the most part the result of misguided efforts to fix the prevalence of overly bright headphones that have dominated the market in the last decade or so.

[vanished]

20 minutes ago, SSL said:

 

Nope. Tubes themselves are (can be) more linear than transistors.

 

A good tube amp (for audio reproduction) shouldn't have "tube tone". Tubey amps are for the most part the result of misguided efforts to fix the prevalence of overly bright headphones that have dominated the market in the last decade or so.

That's with regard to tube headphone amps though right?  I believe this comment was initially in the context of a guitar amp where it's expected that it will colour the sound, often quite heavily.

[SSL]

6 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

That's with regard to tube headphone amps though right?  I believe this comment was initially in the context of a guitar amp where it's expected that it will colour the sound, often quite heavily.

 

Even then, the sound difference is from how tubes respond to being overdriven vs solid state, not an inherent tendency towards non-linearity.

[Matu20]

12 hours ago, Phate.exe said:

My old office had like 80 of them.

There we go, point made. 

[Hayabusa1989]

17 hours ago, goodtofufriday said:

Seems like 2012 will forever be the last of good macs. 

This didn't make sense to me Good + Mac = Impossible ?

[kelvinhall05]

11 hours ago, rn8686 said:

My school library is full of them, about a good 20-30 (Really old 2011 models though with hardware that was old then), they also give us mac air laptops and teachers use a mix of airs or pros. 

 

Where do you go to school??! I've never had anything newer than an Optiplex 750....

[Sniperfox47]

Just want to make the comment that the statement about Android latency is no longer such an issue. Lollipop decreased latency by a factor of 10X (still about 10X more than iOS), Marshmallow decreased it by an additional 2-3X, and Nougat has gotten it only a tiny fraction longer than iOS if the device has decent drivers.

The iPhone 7 over a lightning ADC has a round trip latency of about 5ms, while for the Pixel via a USB-C ADC it's about 6-7ms, both well under the 10ms sweet spot.

 

Also on the Windows front there's a ton of work on the audio stack going on. The reason native USB Audio Class 2 has taken over a year and a half past the original release of Windows 10, is that they had to restructure pretty much the whole kernel level side of the audio pipeline to handle it. Plus side to this is that in the process they worked on making the hooks more open to better support low level audio clients (like ASIO). While native Audio Class 2 support is coming in the Creative upgrade, we likely won't see results for improved latency and low level audio support until the following upgrade.

[RexinOridle]

If I ever use a mac is because of Garage Band. I suck as making music and Garage band is easy for me.

[Syntaxvgm]

On 12/21/2016 at 10:55 AM, Bouzoo said:

We'll talk when they remove the glossy screen thank you. Before anyone calls me out, I've had experiences with iMacs and the glossy part of the screen is hands down horrible.

so fucking glossy you can have all the lights off and the light on your face from the screen makes a reflection. 

[rn8686]

8 hours ago, kelvinhall05 said:

Where do you go to school??! I've never had anything newer than an Optiplex 750....

In Sydney, SMCC.