New Surfaces

[LAwLz]

@djdwosk97@SansVarnic@ONOTech@Daring

 

You can not just look at the Cintiq 27QHD and go "it costs X so therefore this is priced well". The simple reason for that is because the Cintiq is a stand alone tablet and this is an AIO.

 

First of all, the 27QHD does not cost 2800 dollars. It costs 2300 dollars (Amazon, bhphotovideo). So for 700 dollars you get a different screen (I don't know which screen will be better for drawing) and a shitty computer (if you're spending 3000 dollars, an i5, 8GB of RAM, hybrid HDD and a 965M is not good).

The problem I have is that the shitty computer is permanently attached to the screen. If you are buying a drawing tablet for over 2000 dollars then I expect you to use it for a long time. A peripheral you use for a long time will most likely outlive several computers so it is foolish to buy something where you have no upgrade path. This is the problem I got with AIO in general. If you got money oozing out of your ass and can spend 3000 dollars every time you want to upgrade RAM, CPU, storage or whatever, then sure go for it, but for people who has more sense than money it is a terrible idea.

 

If you buy the Cintiq you buy it and can keep on using it on multiple computers and over several generations. With the Surface Studio you will have to throw the entire computer out as soon as one part isn't up to par anymore.

This sees like a great display ruined by a terrible PC being permanently attached to it.

 

Maybe I am getting mad over a very niche product, but I don't think this is a good buy even for that niche.

 

10 hours ago, SansVarnic said:

Ok seriously do you ever say anything constructive?

I thought I was pretty constructive.

• Too expensive (which you agreed with). Should have made it cheaper.
• Upgrades will most likely be very limited if it is even possible at all. Should have sold the monitor separately.
• The GPU is not up-to-date. Should have gone with a 10-series GPU.
• Scaling will be an issue. This really needs fixing before you can push high PPI screens in such expensive products. If I am paying 3000 dollars for a great screen, then I don't want it to be ruined by bad software.
• The wheel thing seems neat but I can't think of a situation where it would be better than regular on-screen controls or keyboard shortcuts. Again, it seems like the cool factor is considerably higher than the usefulness factor. Think before being fooled by the ads.

[Xanthe_2871]

2 hours ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

Another thing I find interesting is Microsoft seems to really like this 3:2 aspect ratio... it started in the surfaces (afaik) and they've not only continued using it there but put it in their desktop now as well, when they definitely wouldn't have had to (since it's a totally custom display as far as I can tell).  In a world where we went from 16:10 to 16:9 and then 21:9, it's interesting to see them going in the opposite direction.

I like 3:2, I think it's great for browsing the web, using Photoshop, writing, basically anything but watching video.

 

Maybe that's just me, but I like it! 

[GoodBytes]

8 hours ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

Another thing I find interesting is Microsoft seems to really like this 3:2 aspect ratio... it started in the surfaces (afaik) and they've not only continued using it there but put it in their desktop now as well, when they definitely wouldn't have had to (since it's a totally custom display as far as I can tell).  In a world where we went from 16:10 to 16:9 and then 21:9, it's interesting to see them going in the opposite direction.

My surface Pro 2 was 16:9, and I already experience 16:9 monitors, and I am have a very difficult time being productive... Heck, on my Surface Pro 2 I was using 100% DPI, to try and maximize every drop of space. It  very cramped. 16:10 is much better. But my Surface Pro 3 (which I got from MS after sending my Pro 2 for repair) is 3:2, and now I have 0 problem having high DPI level and being productive. Height is everything in productivity. And honestly, I have 0 problem looking at 16:9 content.

 

When you have a good panel, the black bars just disappears when watching 16:9 content. It feels like you just had a 16:9 display in the first place. Of course, if it was OLED it would be better as now black is really pitch black, but the panel used by MS does a pretty good job.

[79wjd]

5 hours ago, LAwLz said:

@djdwosk97@SansVarnic@ONOTech@Daring

 

You can not just look at the Cintiq 27QHD and go "it costs X so therefore this is priced well". The simple reason for that is because the Cintiq is a stand alone tablet and this is an AIO.

 

First of all, the 27QHD does not cost 2800 dollars. It costs 2300 dollars (Amazon, bhphotovideo). So for 700 dollars you get a different screen (I don't know which screen will be better for drawing) and a shitty computer (if you're spending 3000 dollars, an i5, 8GB of RAM, hybrid HDD and a 965M is not good).

The problem I have is that the shitty computer is permanently attached to the screen. If you are buying a drawing tablet for over 2000 dollars then I expect you to use it for a long time. A peripheral you use for a long time will most likely outlive several computers so it is foolish to buy something where you have no upgrade path. This is the problem I got with AIO in general. If you got money oozing out of your ass and can spend 3000 dollars every time you want to upgrade RAM, CPU, storage or whatever, then sure go for it, but for people who has more sense than money it is a terrible idea.

 

If you buy the Cintiq you buy it and can keep on using it on multiple computers and over several generations. With the Surface Studio you will have to throw the entire computer out as soon as one part isn't up to par anymore.

This sees like a great display ruined by a terrible PC being permanently attached to it.

 

Maybe I am getting mad over a very niche product, but I don't think this is a good buy even for that niche.

Whether or not it makes sense to buy will be on a per-user basis and that's something else entirely. But it's definitely not overpriced. A 5K monitor will run you $1000, the computer about $700~, and a drawing tablet about $2000. I'm sure there are advantages to being able to draw on the main monitor, having a 5k display, and having everything in a single package that will make this worthwhile for some people.

 

As far as I'm concerned, the entire Surface line is a very niche product lineup -- I would never recommend any Surface to someone unless they specifically plan on using the stylus as it offers both a pretty poor laptop and tablet experience imo.

 

(p.s. according to TechRadar, the hybrid HDD is actually a 128gb M.2 SSD + 1tb hdd)

[The Benjamins]

1 minute ago, djdwosk97 said:

As far as I'm concerned, the entire Surface line is a very niche product lineup -- I would never recommend any Surface to someone unless they specifically plan on using the stylus as it offers both a pretty poor laptop and tablet experience imo.

 

(p.s. according to TechRadar, the hybrid HDD is actually a 128gb M.2 SSD + 1tb hdd)

I like the surface 3 that I have, I wish they would release the surface 4 with upgraded hardware. I think its a good entry level tablet. ($400-$600)

[79wjd]

1 minute ago, The Benjamins said:

I like the surface 3 that I have, I wish they would release the surface 4 with upgraded hardware. I think its a good entry level tablet. ($400-$600)

It's a good tablet and all, but Windows is really not amazing for tablets -- iOS/Android are far superior imo. I have a SP3 and I only really using it for taking notes and get irritated when I use it as a laptop or try to use it as a tablet for things other than hand writing notes. 

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, djdwosk97 said:

Whether or not it makes sense to buy will be on a per-user basis and that's something else entirely. But it's definitely not overpriced. A 5K monitor will run you $1000, the computer about $700~, and a drawing tablet about $2000. I'm sure there are advantages to being able to draw on the main monitor, having a 5k display, and having everything in a single package that will make this worthwhile for some people.

A 5K monitor, a computer for 700 dollars and a drawing tablet would be better than the Surface Studio though, because they are all separate things which can be upgraded and/or re-purposed. Not to mention that you would end up with two monitors (the Cintiq is a monitor by itself) if you bought what you suggested. On top of that, you should also ask yourself "maybe that 5K monitor is overpriced. You are paying a massive premium over an already good 4K display". It's kind of like saying a Ferrari is reasonably priced because a Porsche almost costs the same.

Being an All-In-One is a huge drawback. It is a classic example of form over function.

 

I'll even go as far as to say it would have been a better product if it was just the monitor, for the same price. If I had that kind of money to spend, I would gladly pay 3000 dollars for that display, but I would not pay 3000 dollars for that display, and being forced to only use that shitty computer that's already outdated (last gen GPU and a SSD/HDD combo).

 

And yes, for some people it will "be worth it", but those people have more money than sense if you ask me.

[79wjd]

Just now, LAwLz said:

A 5K monitor, a computer for 700 dollars and a drawing tablet would be better than the Surface Studio though, because they are all separate things which can be upgraded and/or re-purposed. Not to mention that you would end up with two monitors (the Cintiq is a monitor by itself) if you bought what you suggested. On top of that, you should also ask yourself "maybe that 5K monitor is overpriced. You are paying a massive premium over an already good 4K display". It's kind of like saying a Ferrari is reasonably priced because a Porsche almost costs the same.

Being an All-In-One is a huge drawback. It is a classic example of form over function.

 

I'll even go as far as to say it would have been a better product if it was just the monitor, for the same price. If I had that kind of money to spend, I would gladly pay 3000 dollars for that display, but I would not pay 3000 dollars for that display, and being forced to only use that shitty computer that's already outdated (last gen GPU and a SSD/HDD combo).

 

And yes, for some people it will "be worth it", but those people have more money than sense if you ask me.

Again, to you and me, sure. But not to everyone. There is obviously a target market for AIOs, even though they prioritize form over function. For some people that is a tradeoff they're willing to make. As for 5k vs. 4k, again, that's like saying a 1080 is bad because a 1050 is disproportionatley cheaper. 

 

Regardless of whether or not YOU can rationalize it is irrelevant. Some people can -- the people who would buy a Cintiq drawing tablet will decide whether or not the trade offs are worthwhile for them -- in some cases they will be, and in others they won't. 

[GoodBytes]

Gabe from Penny Arcade had the opportunity to try the Surface Studio. You can also go to any Microsoft store today and try the system

 

This is his first hand experience:

https://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2016/10/26/the-surface-studio

 

Some points:

Quote

Once there the Studio provides enough resistance to draw comfortably without worrying about pushing it out of position. When you are drawing on it, the screen is completely engrossing. At a distance the screen is beautiful but when you are on top of it drawing, it’s absolutely stunning. Tycho asked me to compare it to my Cintiq, and I told him that drawing on the Cintiq now felt like drawing on a piece of dirty plexiglass hovering over a CRT monitor from 1997. 

 

Quote

The 3:2 aspect ratio is also great. The screen seems to take up more of my vertical field of vision and when I’m working on it I feel like there is MUCH less wasted space on the sides.

Quote

It’s not designed to be a gaming powerhouse but I was impressed with what I saw. The monitor is obviously a big help as no matter what you play, it looks bright and beautiful. Overwatch was fast and fun on medium settings. Civ VI is what I’ve played the most on the Studio and it looks and runs fantastic. The included keyboard and mouse feel solid and work great for gaming but you can also connect up to four of the new Xbox controllers. Let’s be honest though, if you are getting a Studio it’s not because you want a badass gaming rig. This device to me is a very obvious replacement for artists who currently work on a Cintiq. It is for professional creators and the fact that I can play some games is nice but it’s not the selling point. The Studio sits at about $3000 which might sound high but consider that I paid $2500 for my Wacom Cintiq 27"HD and that isn’t even a computer. I still had to get a machine to run it!

 

[LAwLz]

1 minute ago, djdwosk97 said:

There is obviously a target market for AIOs

I am against taking advantage of the mentally handicapped.

; )

[79wjd]

5 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I am against taking advantage of the mentally handicapped.

; )

It's not just mentally handicapped though. A lot of users would prefer to have everything in as small a footprint as possible with as few cables as possible. (there are also desk/setups that really don't play nicely with a separate computer/monitor -- either you have to drill a hole in the desk, drag wires across the desk, or somehow try to squeeze a tower behind the monitor, and yes there are mini-boxes like the Mac Mini, Zotac Mini, etc... but that still doesn't solve the wire issue)

[Arri]

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

A 5K monitor, a computer for 700 dollars and a drawing tablet would be better than the Surface Studio though, because they are all separate things which can be upgraded and/or re-purposed. Not to mention that you would end up with two monitors (the Cintiq is a monitor by itself) if you bought what you suggested. On top of that, you should also ask yourself "maybe that 5K monitor is overpriced. You are paying a massive premium over an already good 4K display". It's kind of like saying a Ferrari is reasonably priced because a Porsche almost costs the same.

Being an All-In-One is a huge drawback. It is a classic example of form over function.

 

I'll even go as far as to say it would have been a better product if it was just the monitor, for the same price. If I had that kind of money to spend, I would gladly pay 3000 dollars for that display, but I would not pay 3000 dollars for that display, and being forced to only use that shitty computer that's already outdated (last gen GPU and a SSD/HDD combo).

 

And yes, for some people it will "be worth it", but those people have more money than sense if you ask me.

Actually that is a completely valid way to justify pricing. That means for that particular product in that particular market, that is just where these products are valued.

 

What you cannot do is say something is overpriced because it's more expensive than a completely different product built for a completely different audience. 

[atrash]

Now if only it has TB connectors,using external gpu could be an interesting  possibility 

[ARikozuM]

1 minute ago, atrash said:

Now if only it has TB connectors,using external gpu could be an interesting  possibility 

For the $500 Core? 

 

Most of the programs the Studio is aimed at use real-time rendering so having the i5 and 965M will do the job marvelously.

[Misanthrope]

No Pascal? Shame. They've probably been cooking this one for a while now but I think they should have talked more with Nvidia to make it Pascal at least as an option.

[ARikozuM]

1 minute ago, Misanthrope said:

No Pascal? Shame. They've probably been cooking this one for a while now but I think they should have talked more with Nvidia to make it Pascal at least as an option.

Pascal has a higher TDP than Maxwell and pulls a little more wattage from the wall (and no, TDP and wattage are not the same). For the use case of the Studio, though, Maxwell is quite sufficient.

[Misanthrope]

2 minutes ago, ARikozuM said:

Pascal has a higher TDP than Maxwell and pulls a little more wattage from the wall (and no, TDP and wattage are not the same). For the use case of the Studio, though, Maxwell is quite sufficient.

Khe?

 

Oh cause it's a mobile chip you mean? It could be a 1060 instead of a 980m for similar TDP and better horsepower but I guess it's sufficient.

[Miguel Batista]

I think this is a good product. I have a friend in mind who would love something like this for her work (she is an architect). The fact that you can do everything on one screen is amazing and it was probably not cheap to create such a high quality +4k display with touch with a high response time which is essential to drawing on it. Kudos to ms.

 

I see loads of people in conferences using surface books and surface pros. And they all swear by them. I am tempted to get one myself (geomatics engineer). If they allowed for nvidia 3D vision that would be awesome.

[Blade of Grass]

15 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Well... Let's look at the Apple iMac 27inch, which has a 5K display (I mean both are more than 4K display. Microsoft is a custom display to get it so thin, 3:2 aspect ratio and DCI-P3 color space support (probably costs more than 5K display panel). We have to look at Apple iMac highest end model for easier comparison with the Surface Studio, as there is most matches in configurations specs. On Apple we need to get the 2TB fusion drive which, I guess we can say it is comparable to Microsoft hybrid drive and the AMD Radeon M395X (which is still too weak compared to the 980M)

 

The problem is CPU.. we don't know the chip of the Surface Studio to know which one to pick. Is it the same 4GHz chip that iMac has as option? Say, yes.

 

The result, is that the iMac costs $3,399 US.

Surface Studio is $4,199 US

 

So, for $800 more you have:

• Touch screen
• Pen digitizer
• Adapted sensor to detect the Surface Dial (however the tracking is done... I am saying this as apparently you don't have the full experience... I am assuming this is what they mean... we have to see)
• What it looks like an excellent hinge system to put it in draw mode, and support high pressure from an arm rest when drawing.
• DCI-P3 and Adobe sRGB supported display
• Manufacture color calibrated panel
• Xbox Wireless built-in

Just a bit of a correction, both the 4k and 5k iMacs support P3 and sRGB. Also, AdobeRGB != sRGB (Adobe sRGB is not a thing), there's no mention of the Surface Studio supporting AdobeRGB.

Factory colour calibration is a bit of a buzz word, especially if they aren't claiming what it's being calibrated to. Any colour accurate monitor should be re-calibrated before professional use. 

 

[ARikozuM]

45 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

Khe?

 

Oh cause it's a mobile chip you mean? It could be a 1060 instead of a 980m for similar TDP and better horsepower but I guess it's sufficient.

965M has a TDP of 50W whereas the 1060 (mobile) has a TDP of 80W.

[Misanthrope]

2 minutes ago, ARikozuM said:

965M has a TDP of 50W whereas the 1060 (mobile) has a TDP of 80W.

Thought it came with the 980m, must have missed that.

[ForumTryhard]

So the new trend is to make ultra thin monitors and hide all the components..

[79wjd]

12 minutes ago, ARikozuM said:

965M has a TDP of 50W whereas the 1060 (mobile) has a TDP of 80W.

 

8 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

Thought it came with the 980m, must have missed that.

The Studio has UP TO a 980m. 

[GoodBytes]

31 minutes ago, Blade of Grass said:

Just a bit of a correction, both the 4k and 5k iMacs support P3 and sRGB. Also, AdobeRGB != sRGB (Adobe sRGB is not a thing), there's no mention of the Surface Studio supporting AdobeRGB.

Factory colour calibration is a bit of a buzz word, especially if they aren't claiming what it's being calibrated to. Any colour accurate monitor should be re-calibrated before professional use. 

 

You can't blame anyone for the mistake.

From MS website: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-studio/tech-specs

I guess "Vivid Color" is a nice way to either say sRGB, or to really say: "Store shelf settings", and that will be default

[LAwLz]

31 minutes ago, Blade of Grass said:

Just a bit of a correction, both the 4k and 5k iMacs support P3 and sRGB. Also, AdobeRGB != sRGB (Adobe sRGB is not a thing), there's no mention of the Surface Studio supporting AdobeRGB.

Factory colour calibration is a bit of a buzz word, especially if they aren't claiming what it's being calibrated to. Any colour accurate monitor should be re-calibrated before professional use.

Does Windows even have proper color management?

 

 

Just now, GoodBytes said:

You can't blame anyone for the mistake.

From MS website: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-studio/tech-specs

That's just Microsoft being stupid.

It's sRGB, and AdobeRGB.