"Should nvidia have a response to Mantle?....no"

[exyia]

John Carmack:

In terms of action items, should nvidia have a response to Mantle?
 
and I think that's an unequivocally NO. I think that would be a horrible mistake

 

...

 

we already have very good low level access from the GPU extensions that nvidia has always rolled out...

 
An actual insightful and intelligent conversation about AMD Mantle.

 

 

Johan Andersson:

 

It's not a replacement

 

 

John Carmack:

 

No API just all of a sudden makes a dramatic difference...

 

if you build a good engine, it would be good with ANY API.

 

 

Tim Sweeney

 

It's good as an R&D platform...

 

It's also good because it pushes Microsoft and OpenGL folks to improve their drivers by realizing "hey you can achieve a lot more performance on PC with some more low level techniques."

 

I think it would be generally bad if the outcome of this is now we have to deal with five vendors with specific API's.

 

 

I would quote more but I'm tired of looping video over and over to type.

 

but I wish people on this forum would have a more open mind than "zomg AMD Mantle, nvidia is doomed, AMD wins". I find this a much more insightful and intelligent discussion of the GPU landscape and what AMD Mantle what could really mean
 
Source - nvidia press conference, this one an uploaded recording from Hardware Canucks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3exPJu_F8xk

[EmmaLong]

Nvidia cannot really convince anyone to develop for an API that would only work with their architecture because it would only work on roughly half of one gaming platform out of three which is the PC.

On the other hand AMD can convince developers to do just that, because their GCN architecture is in all three major gaming platforms.

[GPUXPert]

Did you expect them to say otherwise at an Nvidia conference ?
How that journalist even asked about Mantle is beyond me, he's got some really big bawls for doing it though.

[heineygoat]

John Carmack:

No API just all of a sudden makes a dramatic difference...

 

if you build a good engine, it would be good with ANY API.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[MattDaemontools]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

He did say if you build an engine with a specific architecture in mind you would get very large performance benefits.

Now hold that thought and consider the fact that all next-gen engines are developed with next-gen console hardware in mind which is AMD hardware.

John Carmack

"The landscape does matter that they have both the major console wins with a similar architecture that you can get on the PC"

"Developers will be making system's architectural changes that favor those"

Time stamp to when he said it.

http://youtu.be/3exPJu_F8xk?t=52s

[RatedBlam]

Nvidia can't have a response to Mantle, because they lost all the next-gen hardware to AMD, so they cannot convince really anyone to develop for an API that would only work with their architecture which occupies roughly half of one gaming platform out of three.

On the other hand AMD can convince developers to do just that, because their GCN architecture is in all three major gaming platforms.

I read somewhere that the Xbox one only supports d3d11.x and nothing else. If that is what you're talking about

[Katness Everdeen]

I read somewhere that the Xbox one only supports d3d11.x and nothing else. If that is what you're talking about

Microsoft is really afraid of Mantle, because if it kicks off it will give platforms like Linux & SteamOS huge performance benefits.

In fact AMD is already doing that with their OpenGL Mantle extensions.

[TEDWARDS]

They stated that Mantle is not being used on consoles...

[RatedBlam]

Microsoft is really afraid of Mantle, because if it kicks off it will give platforms like Linux & SteamOS huge performance benefits.

In fact AMD is already doing that with their OpenGL Mantle extensions.

Yep, but at least 11.x is optimized with apus in mind

[MattDaemontools]

They stated that Mantle is not being used on consoles...

Mantle is not a console API, it's a Windows and Linux API that brings console-like hardware access to the PC.

In other words it allows the porting of games from consoles to PCs very easily.

Consoles already offer low level access, Mantle brings that to the PC.

[ACatWithThumbs]

Nvidia can't have a response to Mantle, because they lost all the next-gen hardware to AMD, so they cannot convince really anyone to develop for an API that would only work with their architecture which occupies roughly half of one gaming platform out of three.

On the other hand AMD can convince developers to do just that, because their GCN architecture is in all three major gaming platforms.

Thats just wrong the XboxOne and Ps4 don't use Mantle in any way.

 

[exyia]

Nvidia can't have a response to Mantle, because they lost all the next-gen hardware to AMD, so they cannot convince really anyone to develop for an API that would only work with their architecture which occupies roughly half of one gaming platform out of three.

On the other hand AMD can convince developers to do just that, because their GCN architecture is in all three major gaming platforms.

 

sigh..../facepalm

[Immort]

What John Carmack was actually saying ( I watched the live event ) is that if Nvidia does indeed make a low level API for its own architecture, it will create "yet another API to program for" and then if Intel follows & ARM and so on, it will become a nightmare.

[EmmaLong]

Thats just wrong the XboxOne and Ps4 don't use Mantle in any way.

Mantle is for the PC, it translates the work developers do on the consoles to the PC.

[LAwLz]

Mantle is not a console API, it's a Windows and Linux API that brings console-like hardware access to the PC.

In other words it allows the porting of games from consoles to PCs very easily.

Low level access on PCs does not imply or mean that it will be easy to port from DirectX (which the Xbone uses) or the GNM/OpenGL APIs the PS4 uses. It might be easy to do as a side effect of AMD helping with the development of these low level APIs on consoles though. We don't really have enough info to make any claims about Mantle at this point though. It might be really good, or it might fail really hard, or somewhere in between.

 

It's nice to hear John Carmack (he is one of my personal heroes) gives his thought on this. As he said, one issue might be that Sony and Microsoft will not embrace it, and another issue might be that the extra time and effort to code for it might not be worth it. I sadly have to agree with Sweeney in general though. Proprietary APIs from each vendor is the wrong direction. Just imagine if developers had to first develop for DirectX (general Windows), then OpenGL (for general GNU/Linux), then OpenGL ES (for Android and iOS), then develop for the low level APIs for the PS4, then the low level APIs for the Xbone, then throw in Mantle for GNC based AMD cards, and then throw in yet another API library from Nvidia for their newer cards, then maybe Intel makes their own low level API library... It's just a big mess and nobody will do that. I mean, there is a reason why high level libraries such as DirectX and OpenGL are so popular to use, and has been dominating even since they destroyed Glide.

 

We will just have to wait and see what the benefits and drawbacks of Mantle are, and if developers start using it.

[MattDaemontools]

Low level access on PCs does not imply or mean that it will be easy to port from DirectX (which the Xbone uses) or the GNM/OpenGL APIs the PS4 uses. It might be easy to do as a side effect of AMD helping with the development of these low level APIs on consoles though. We don't really have enough info to make any claims about Mantle at this point though. It might be really good, or it might fail really hard, or somewhere in between.

 

It's nice to hear John Carmack (he is one of my personal heroes) gives his thought on this. As he said, one issue might be that Sony and Microsoft will not embrace it, and another issue might be that the extra time and effort to code for it might not be worth it. I sadly have to agree with Sweeney in general though. Proprietary APIs from each vendor is the wrong direction. Just imagine if developers had to first develop for DirectX (general Windows), then OpenGL (for general GNU/Linux), then OpenGL ES (for Android and iOS), then develop for the low level APIs for the PS4, then the low level APIs for the Xbone, then throw in Mantle for GNC based AMD cards, and then throw in yet another API library from Nvidia for their newer cards, then maybe Intel makes their own low level API library... It's just a big mess and nobody will do that. I mean, there is a reason why high level libraries such as DirectX and OpenGL are so popular to use, and has been dominating even since they destroyed Glide.

 

We will just have to wait and see what the benefits and drawbacks of Mantle are, and if developers start using it.

Actually it is very easy to port from DirectX to Mantle because you would move the vast majority of your code and it would be compatible.

furthermore Mantle can even use the Direct3D High Level Shader Language (HLSL), the high level shader language Xbox One shaders will be coded against in the first place.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-amds-mantle-a-lowlevel-graphics-api-for-gcn

 

It doesn't really matter if Microsoft or Sony embrace it, if the game is developed for the consoles it is already largely compatible with Mantle, so when the code is there MS & Sony can't really do anything about it.

[7850OC]

3.12 

[LAwLz]

Actually it is very easy to port from DirectX to Mantle because you would move the vast majority of your code and it would be compatible.

Yes I know. I just wanted to point out that the reason for that is because AMD helped develop the low level APIs on the PS4 and Xbone. It's not easy to port just because "it console-like hardware access to the PC" like you implied in your post.

 

 

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-amds-mantle-a-lowlevel-graphics-api-for-gcn

 

It doesn't really matter if Microsoft or Sony embrace it, if the game is developed for the consoles it is already largely compatible with Mantle, so when the code is there MS & Sony can't really do anything about it.

If that is correct (I've heard Mantle is more based on the PS4's low level APIs) then that's a bad thing, because it means it will be easier to port games to DirectX, but a lot harder to port games to non-Windows systems like GNU/Linux (and SteamOS). I am not sure how much overhead the HLSL but it sounds like it's fairly high level (just judging by the name, but programmable shaders are low level so I dunno) so you would probably lose the performance benefits if you ported it like that.

 

Please note that the sentence under the one you quoted says that this is just speculations.

 

Again, we simply don't have enough info about Mantle to really say anything at this point.

[MattDaemontools]

Yes I know. I just wanted to point out that the reason for that is because AMD helped develop the low level APIs on the PS4 and Xbone. It's not easy to port just because "it console-like hardware access to the PC" like you implied in your post.

 

 

If that is correct (I've heard Mantle is more based on the PS4's low level APIs) then that's a bad thing, because it means it will be easier to port games to DirectX, but a lot harder to port games to non-Windows systems like GNU/Linux (and SteamOS). I am not sure how much overhead the HLSL but it sounds like it's fairly high level (just judging by the name, but programmable shaders are low level so I dunno) so you would probably lose the performance benefits if you ported it like that.

 

Please note that the sentence under the one you quoted says that this is just speculations.

 

Again, we simply don't have enough info about Mantle to really say anything at this point.

It's not speculation, read the 4th point.

[LAwLz]

It's not speculation, read the 4th point.

[image]

Oh OK. Good, and bad. You are still missing my points though.

[winny3141]

John Carmack has no idea what he is talking about. If he kept up with the rumors, he woold know that nvidia plans to put arm chips in their Maxwell refresh, the 900 series, enabling some of the nvidia drivers to be offloaded to the graphics card, reducing cpu bottleneck. This is better than an API, because this is a way where nvidia could improve 0erformance in ALL APIs. To get a performance benefit, the game has to be programmed in the API, and the only game to do that so far is Battlefield 4. AMD broke the 1 TFLOP barrier in 2008, the 2 TFLOPS barrier in 2009, and the 3 TFLOPS with the 7970, and the 7970 GHz edition had wepl over 4 TFLOPS of compute power. Also, AMD APUs are being used in the next gen consoles. However, Nvidia takes everythong that AMD does and makes it better, and as much of a fan boy you think I am for saying this, just look at frame ratings and now the Mantle API being better executed by the ARM cores offloading driver processes, nvidia is defintely leading the graphics war now at least.

[MattDaemontools]

Oh OK. Good, and bad. You are still missing my points though.

No, I think most of your points are based on factually incorrect ideas.

[Stonep11]

Text

I think a lot of people, me included, were confused by the in it I hype. I thought Mantle was announced as a streamlined, cross platform API that would allow flawless ports from and to console as well as easy optimization on both platforms. I have learned that is not at all what Mantle is (its not even on consoles). They fed us numbers like 9 times more draws per clock and buzzwords like direct to GPU architecture. I drank the koolaid, but now I see the error of my ways.

[LAwLz]

No, I think most of your points are based on factually incorrect ideas.

No? You need to work on your reading comprehension skills mate. My points:

• Just because it "brings console-like hardware access to the PC" does not mean it is easy to port. You could have low level access APIs and make it really hard to port between different systems. Mantle seems to be easy to port to DirectX though (again, speculations since we don't know much about it, just because it is compatible with HLSL doesn't mean it will be easy to port).

   

• Having more proprietary libraries for each platform is a bad thing. In a perfect world we would have a hardware abstraction layer with very little overhead which was also cross platform. In a worst case scenario we would have a proprietary library from AMD, a proprietary library from Nvidia, one from Intel, one from Qualcomm, one from ARM and so on, and that's what we would be heading towards if Nvidia was to release their own counterpart to Mantle. AMD has already taken one step towards that.

   

• Sony and Microsoft doesn't seem too pleased with Mantle. Just because you might be able to port big parts of the code easily does not mean Microsoft and/or Sony won't try to put a spoke in AMD's wheel. Even if they don't do anything, it might still not end up being as good as if Sony and Microsoft embraced it.

   

• The extra time and money it takes to develop Mantle might not be worth it, depending on the performance difference and easy of porting to different other systems.

   

• We don't have enough info about Mantle to really say anything about it. We don't know how hard/easy it is to use, we don't know what kind of performance increase we might see, we don't know what features it has, we don't know how it will scale on different hardware... We know next to nothing.

[JAKEBAB]

i see mantle as kind of like google fiber they dont plan on taking over with it just a kick in the but to the big dogs to make them wake up and do something.