Hardware Labs Rad Causing Color Change?

[BigBig5]

I just watched JayTwoCents Ultimate PC Upgrade Part 2 - Red Mist. He says that Skunkworks didn't change color in till he replaced the rads to Hardware Labs. Has anybody else had color change with Hardware Labs because I been thinking of getting them for my build?

[EX1]

Any radiator can cause color change if flux and other junk from the assembly and welding process is left inside. Some people get lucky and their radiators aren't very dirty (some manufactures are even sonic cleaning them prior to shipment). Because of this, most can get away with cleaning rads with a weak acidic solution like white vinegar. I prefer the Mayhems Blitz Part 1 kit however as it strips the inside of the rads clean. It was the only thing that got my Alphacool radiators to stop causing color change and throwing my Ph off. I currently use a 560mm Hardware Labs GTX and all is well after using the same solution. 

[VSG]

He is blaming everyone else at this point but not actually doing any tests or getting any tests done. I have had no issues with any rad and any Pastel/nanofluid in months now (Mayhems Pastel, Mayhems Pastel Extreme, Ice Dragon Cooling Nanofluid) and I have made sure to do some research on this and use them as they should.

[HWLABS]

Hello everyone.  Willie@hardwarelabs here.

First of all.  JayzTwoCents did not show any of the issues he claims he's encountered using our rads.

 

Second, we are unable to determine if this was a new radiator or one that we previously sponsored him with.  Making determination of any potential contaminant variables that caused the discoloration of nano-particle infused coolants even more difficult.

So here's the quick explanation.  The thing is, the pH change of the coolant that ends up being close enough to the isoelectric point of the nanoparticle aggregates.

This causes the surface charge to drop, allowing these particles to aggregate and become bigger.

As they get bigger their plasmonic properties change and they appear a different color.  This could possibly be what he was referring to as more "flux" the more he flushed.

If they get large enough to the point where they settle out of solution, the coolant gets muddy and dark.

And some of the aggregates can even get stuck in small spaces and may appear like residue. 

Incidentally, the flux we use is water soluble.  This is the first ever reported instance of discoloration attributed to our radiators.   Common sense and practice would simply use a quick flush or even a light acid wash to get this sorted.
 

[BigBig5]

5 minutes ago, HWLABS said:

Hello everyone.  Willie@hardwarelabs here.

First of all.  JayzTwoCents did not show any of the issues he claims he's encountered using our rads.

 

Second, we are unable to determine if this was a new radiator or one that we previously sponsored him with.  Making determination of any potential contaminant variables that caused the discoloration of nano-particle infused coolants even more difficult.

So here's the quick explanation.  The thing is, the pH change of the coolant that ends up being close enough to the isoelectric point of the nanoparticle aggregates.

This causes the surface charge to drop, allowing these particles to aggregate and become bigger.

As they get bigger their plasmonic properties change and they appear a different color.  This could possibly be what he was referring to as more "flux" the more he flushed.

If they get large enough to the point where they settle out of solution, the coolant gets muddy and dark.

And some of the aggregates can even get stuck in small spaces and may appear like residue. 

Incidentally, the flux we use is water soluble.  This is the first ever reported instance of discoloration attributed to our radiators.   Common sense and practice would simply use a quick flush or even a light acid wash to get this sorted.
 

Can you contact JayzTwoCents?

[HWLABS]

Yes, we always work with people who have issues.  We've forwarded some questions for clarification and hope to hear from him soon.

Our rads are used in anything from high performance automotive, computing, medical, military, power generation, renewables... and it is rather disconcerting to have something like this occur with very little information other than broad stroke conclusions backed by very little else.

[Crossbred]

I thought J said he flushed them multiple times...

I also don't know what any of that meant.

Sounds like rust, which was the first thing I thought when I saw what he was talking about.

 

[HWLABS]

Rust is Iron Oxide.

Our radiator's internal composition is brass with tin as the solder.  It is highly likely that the nano particle dispersion failed.

[W-L]

Oh cool we have a HardwareLabs affiliate   

 

2 hours ago, BigBig5 said:

I just watched JayTwoCents Ultimate PC Upgrade Part 2 - Red Mist. He says that Skunkworks didn't change color in till he replaced the rads to Hardware Labs. Has anybody else had color change with Hardware Labs because I been thinking of getting them for my build?

As for color change it's mainly caused by PH in most situations, hard to say in Jay's case since he seems to be having so many issues however. 

[KWelz]

I have been watching this with some interest.   I hope HW labs will have a better response to him than Mayhems did.   From the tone of the above post it seems that they are.   It is obvious that something is going on.   If I remember those Radiators he is using were semi custom.  It could be a single bad Radiator causing the problem.  And no matter how good the company there can be bad ones that slip through QC. 

 

[done12many2]

37 minutes ago, VSG said:

He is blaming everyone else at this point but not actually doing any tests or getting any tests done. I have had no issues with any rad and any Pastel/nanofluid in months now (Mayhems Pastel, Mayhems Pastel Extreme, Ice Dragon Cooling Nanofluid) and I have made sure to do some research on this and use them as they should.

There's a certain point in rise of "vloggers" that they have to realize that speculation has a greater impact than they think.  I watched the video myself and thought he could have been more cautious in implying that it was the HWLabs radiators since they were the only thing left that he could think of.  I've personally never used their rads, but hear nothing but great things about them.  I've also never experienced these issues with my EK rads.

 

Sometimes I wonder how much of this drama is true or perpetuated in order to reopen communication with vendors.

[KWelz]

Just now, done12many2 said:

 

Sometimes I wonder how much of this drama is true or perpetuated in order to reopen communication with vendors.

No doubt there is a good bit of that with some Vloggers.  However well known ones like J2C, TB and Linus don't need to do these kinds of things. 

 

[EX1]

7 minutes ago, W-L said:

Oh cool we have a HardwareLabs affiliate   

 

As for color change it's mainly caused by PH in most situations, hard to say in Jay's case since he seems to be having so many issues however. 

Jay also never reveals his FLUID temps. Pastel has been known to change shades from long term exposure to high fluid temps. Something that Mick@ Mayhems addressed and said would be resolved in the new Pastel Extreme they just launched.

[W-L]

Just now, EX1 said:

Jay also never reveals his FLUID temps. Pastel has been known to change shades from long term exposure to high fluid temps. Something that Mick@ Mayhems addressed and said would be resolved in the new Pastel Extreme they just launched.

That's true after a certain amount, temp wise, the fluid does quickly degrade.

 

It isn't uncommon for fluids to change slightly with PH over long term use however and if large enough can cause issues, personally I've been using pastel for almost 12 months now and it's never caused me any problems. Other than maybe carry a slight tinge of green from copper oxides but even that is not in anyway noticeable unless one was to hold a new bottle of fluid up to it. 

[VSG]

4 minutes ago, EX1 said:

Jay also never reveals his FLUID temps. Pastel has been known to change shades from long term exposure to high fluid temps. Something that Mick@ Mayhems addressed and said would be resolved in the new Pastel Extreme they just launched.

Can you please show where high fluid temps alone led to this? I am very curious. 

 

Pastel Extreme isn't brand new either actually, it's been out for months now. It is less prone to these issues, but still susceptible nonetheless.

[done12many2]

3 minutes ago, KWelz said:

No doubt there is a good bit of that with some Vloggers.  However well known ones like J2C, TB and Linus don't need to do these kinds of things. 

 

I tend to agree with you.  

 

I also believe it happens on a much smaller scale with the "well known" ones.  Unfortunately, that smaller scale can have a much larger impact.

[JayzTwoCents]

I am not currently using the Pastel. The fluid that changed this time around is the PrimoChill Clear with Mayhems Orange Dye. I also said in that video that it could be the Dye that is causing this, and Mayhems and I have been working closely on this matter to rule out the dye. 

 

VSG, you are not privy to the conversations and testing that is taking place both here in the States as well as in the UK with Mayhems, so what you just did is speculate as well, which is what you just said someone shouldnt do.... ironic?

[EX1]

23 minutes ago, VSG said:

Can you please show where high fluid temps alone led to this? I am very curious. 

 

Pastel Extreme isn't brand new either actually, it's been out for months now. It is less prone to these issues, but still susceptible nonetheless.

I never said that the high fluid temps alone could of caused this (I am just speculating at a possible factor). Just stating that as water rises in temperature, the amount of H+ active in the coolant will typically increase which then results in the pH decrease. Its the same reason why H2O at 0C can have a pH of around 7.4 but the same water at 40C can drop almost half a point. That small increase in acidity can have a long term effect on coolant color.

13 minutes ago, JayzTwoCents said:

I am not currently using the Pastel. The fluid that changed this time around is the PrimoChill Clear with Mayhems Orange Dye. I also said in that video that it could be the Dye that is causing this, and Mayhems and I have been working closely on this matter to rule out the dye. 

 

VSG, you are not privy to the conversations and testing that is taking place both here in the States as well as in the UK with Mayhems, so what you just did is speculate as well, which is what you just said someone shouldnt do.... ironic?

Jay, I really hope you and Mayhems can figure out what in the world is the root cause of the issue. You have had hell with your coolant colors   Many of us haven't had such drastic color changes. Best of luck and please share ya'lls findings! 

[JayzTwoCents]

Trust me, we want this resolved because the best outcome is that the industry will be left with a better product in the end. As for my fluid temps, the max I have seen it get is 30c using a probe while my GPU loop is under load. My CPU loop is a little cooler at 28c. As for the heat, its not the CAUSE but more of an accelerator... the heat is a key factor in what is happening, but we still dont know  WHAT is happening. 

[EX1]

8 minutes ago, JayzTwoCents said:

Trust me, we want this resolved because the best outcome is that the industry will be left with a better product in the end. As for my fluid temps, the max I have seen it get is 30c using a probe while my GPU loop is under load. My CPU loop is a little cooler at 28c. As for the heat, its not the CAUSE but more of an accelerator... the heat is a key factor in what is happening, but we still dont know  WHAT is happening. 

Those are very cool fluid temps, thank you for sharing. I would hesitate then to think an excessive heat level is the sole issue. I am currently running 15 month old pastel in a folding@home rig, 24/7, with fluid temps that range from 28C-36C depending on the ambient. This is with soft Primoflex LRT tubing as well.

Have you noticed any color shift in your new fractal MITX build?

[JayzTwoCents]

I have not, but one thing that Mayhems did tell me is that Orange, Red and Yellow are the most sensitive to color change. Blue us not likely to change. I have been leaving it running and checking for changes. 

[done12many2]

58 minutes ago, JayzTwoCents said:

Trust me, we want this resolved because the best outcome is that the industry will be left with a better product in the end. As for my fluid temps, the max I have seen it get is 30c using a probe while my GPU loop is under load. My CPU loop is a little cooler at 28c. As for the heat, its not the CAUSE but more of an accelerator... the heat is a key factor in what is happening, but we still dont know  WHAT is happening. 

Well if this isn't a great example of I'm doing it wrong, I don't know what is.  My water temps never exceed 3c (more like 2c) delta from ambient with CPU and GPUs at full load, but my (2) 980 Tis definitely get a warmer than that with an ambient varying from 19c to 21c.  I normally see mid 30's despite the lack of difference from ambient to water.  Time to investigate.

 

Disregard, I misread.  I guess I am doing it right! 

[EX1]

1 minute ago, JayzTwoCents said:

I have not, but one thing that Mayhems did tell me is that Orange, Red and Yellow are the most sensitive to color change. Blue us not likely to change. I have been leaving it running and checking for changes. 

I remember Mick saying that. My Pastel red is barely any different than it was over a year ago. I can only see a slight blue-ish tint when I hold up a tube with fresh pastel in it next to my res. Can we expect a video(s) to keep the subscribers up to date later? 

[JayzTwoCents]

Im going to document all of this. Obviously my intentions are not to damage any brands. I am an advocate for the WC community and want it to grow, not cause damage. I am offering my radiators as well as fluid samples to both Mayhems and Hardware Labs to investigate completely. Have not received a response from HWLabs yet on whether or not they want the rad. 

 

They did respond a lot to the Pastel and Nano Particle issue, however I dont think they realized that this time around... there is no nano fluid in my system whatsoever. 

[VSG]

31 minutes ago, JayzTwoCents said:

VSG, you are not privy to the conversations and testing that is taking place both here in the States as well as in the UK with Mayhems, so what you just did is speculate as well, which is what you just said someone shouldnt do.... ironic?

Actually I am. Both Mick and Willie were in communication with me about this. I have been trying to figure out what is going on myself, and doing tests with a lot of rads and nanofluids at my own time and expense because I was interested. No speculation here

 

Having said that, if you were using PC Clear then that changes things a LOT. I was told it was a nanofluid, and I owe you and others here an apology since my reasoning was based on nanoparticle dispersions.