Below ambient with Air or water cooling?

[CoolaxGaming]

Hello LTT!

 

I have a question about air cooling and water cooling. 

A few months ago I wondered that can you have a super awesome duper mega ultra watercooling or aircooling setup and bring tempratures below ambient. Well after some thought, I concluded it was impossible. Because if ambient is 30C, all objects are at 30C, which includes the processor and your computer parts. And if the processor is producing heat and has 30C air blown onto it, how can it go under 30C?

 

So for people who dont want to read dat - 

 

Assumption: I dont think you can bring temperatures below ambient with Air or water cooling.

[othertomperson]

That would defy the second law of thermodynamics.

[CoolaxGaming]

That would defy the second law of thermodynamics.

So my assumption is right right?

[Kherm]

So my assumption is right right?

Right, right.

[othertomperson]

So my assumption is right right?

 

Yes. Heat must travel from something that's warm to something that's cool, and not the reverse.

[ReadyToGame]

Well air will sometimes be cooler than room temp, because objects retain heat better than air, so when air is moving at a high speed, it is cooler.

 

Try this: Put your hand half an inch away from your mouth, breathe out gently, what do you get? Warm air. Then. Blow hard, cold air. You may be able to get lower than ambient, but it doesn't really matter.

 

But either way it's just not possible.

[CoolaxGaming]

Well air will sometimes be cooler than room temp, because objects retain heat better than air, so when air is moving at a high speed, it is cooler.

 

Try this: Put your hand half an inch away from your mouth, breathe out gently, what do you get? Warm air. Then. Blow hard, cold air. You may be able to get lower than ambient, but it doesn't really matter.

 

But either way it's just not possible.

Im confused... Eh ima have to look it up in a book

[othertomperson]

Well air will sometimes be cooler than room temp, because objects retain heat better than air, so when air is moving at a high speed, it is cooler.

 

Try this: Put your hand half an inch away from your mouth, breathe out gently, what do you get? Warm air. Then. Blow hard, cold air. You may be able to get lower than ambient, but it doesn't really matter.

 

A CPU cooler is using ambient air to take heat away from the CPU by transferring as much of it as possible to that air. For your CPU to surpass your ambient temperature, you would have to continue dumping heat after reaching thermal equilibrium.

[NeverNotExhausted]

It would be impossible, yes.

 

There was a really interesting product that came out a few years back that was a CPU block with some device in it that made sub ambient temps possible in a normal water cooling loop. I can't remember the name of it, but from memory I think it was like a peliter cooler (or however you spell it) embedded in a CPU waterblock. But it never became mainstream.

[Arty]

Could use a differnet substance to liquid cool

[Arty]

It would be impossible, yes.

 

There was a really interesting product that came out a few years back that was a CPU block with some device in it that made sub ambient temps possible in a normal water cooling loop. I can't remember the name of it, but from memory I think it was like a peliter cooler (or however you spell it) embedded in a CPU waterblock. But it never became mainstream.

 @LinusTech is building a rig atm ithink thier white build is gonna be sub zero cpu, maybe, thought i saw it on a wan show

[othertomperson]

I should point out, that there is a heavily implicit "passively" in everything I've written so far. It's obviously possible to force heat to continue move, but it takes energy to do it. We call it refrigeration, and it produces even more heat that you need to dump somewhere else.

[CoolaxGaming]

 @LinusTech is building a rig atm ithink thier white build is gonna be sub zero cpu, maybe, thought i saw it on a wan show

Yeah its a phase changer thing.. Works like a Refrigerator I think.

[NeverNotExhausted]

 @LinusTech is building a rig atm ithink thier white build is gonna be sub zero cpu, maybe, thought i saw it on a wan show

 

Yeah he's using a phase change cooler for it. I think the rig is called Whiteout.

 

This is another way to get sub zero temps. Though alot riskier due to condensation and stuff like that

 

Also Singularity computers are working on a prototype for a sub zero cooling system that can be added into regular water cooling loops. But apart from announcing that he's been prototyping it there's no other details on that

[DildorTheDecent]

 @LinusTech is building a rig atm ithink thier white build is gonna be sub zero cpu, maybe, thought i saw it on a wan show

Phase change cooling is what they are doing. 

 

As long as they insulate the area around the socket area they will be able to use their hardware again. 

[GzeroD]

It would be impossible, yes.

 

There was a really interesting product that came out a few years back that was a CPU block with some device in it that made sub ambient temps possible in a normal water cooling loop. I can't remember the name of it, but from memory I think it was like a peliter cooler (or however you spell it) embedded in a CPU waterblock. But it never became mainstream.

 

This thread makes me really want to start working on my peltier cooled rig again.

 

I got as far as coating the board to protect from condensation and assembling   Thats 2 waterblocks attached to a peltier  plan is hot side with 2 rads and a pump and cold side with cpu and a single rad also with a pump. I should put some time into that this weekend.

[othertomperson]

I have to wonder about the sense in anyone in Canada wanting sub-ambient cooling They're already doing whole-room water cooling with the rads outside, that's enough of a condensation risk as it is, since they're using outdoor ambient instead of inside to cool the water.

[NeverNotExhausted]

This thread makes me really want to start working on my peltier cooled rig again.

 

I got as far as coating the board to protect from condensation and assembling   Thats 2 waterblocks attached to a peltier  plan is hot side with 2 rads and a pump and cold side with cpu and a single rad also with a pump. I should put some time into that this weekend.

 

That looks wicked!

 

Let us know how it goes!

 

So I had an idea about it the other day, Is it possible to submerge a peltier cooler within a custom CPU block that's been like CNC'd or something and hopefully the liquid would take care of the condensation issue? Just spitballing, I don't really know enough about peltiers but I thought that could be a cool way to incorporate it into a regular loop

[GzeroD]

That looks wicked!

 

Let us know how it goes!

 

So I had an idea about it the other day, Is it possible to submerge a peltier cooler within a custom CPU block that's been like CNC'd or something and hopefully the liquid would take care of the condensation issue? Just spitballing, I don't really know enough about peltiers but I thought that could be a cool way to incorporate it into a regular loop

The condensation issue from what I have read is really going to bite you while the rig is idle and the rest of the cold side of your loop gets sub dew point and at that point all of your radiators and tubing will start dripping.

 

 

The peltier I have in there is 245W but only does about 80W in cooling if rigged up perfectly so Im not really worried about that because my plan is too have the peltier off at idle and just run off the single radiator on the cold side eventually throwing a themostat fitting in on the out side of my cpu so that the peltier turns off if it is colder than room temp. (Unless I'm taking screen shots to screw with people )

[NeverNotExhausted]

The condensation issue from what I have read is really going to bite you while the rig is idle and the rest of the cold side of your loop gets sub dew point and at that point all of your radiators and tubing will start dripping.

 

 

The peltier I have in there is 245W but only does about 80W in cooling if rigged up perfectly so Im not really worried about that because my plan is too have the peltier off at idle and just run off the single radiator on the cold side eventually throwing a themostat fitting in on the out side of my cpu so that the peltier turns off if it is colder than room temp. (Unless I'm taking screen shots to screw with people )

 

Well just rigging the peltier to turn off below a certain temp would potentially solve any condensation issues then I wouldn't be looking at sub ambient temps, just enough extra cooling to keep the cpu at room temps under load

[MblaZe7run]

Would it be possible for the physical CPU to be cooler than the ambient temperature of the case? If that is the case, then my build should evenly and thoroughly be at a temperature of 70*C, the mean temperature of my hottest unit, the GPU. Following my thought process of parts being cooler than the ambient temperature of the case, there are going to be hot zones and cold zones in a computer (which I know there are, hot zones being the GPU and CPU usually, and cold zones being the areas that are unoccupied), and any given part of the computer could be anywhere between those temperatures. I also might be basing my claims off of the wrong numbers, I was going off the AMD FX-8350 tree, while the motherboard tree shows the CPU at closer to 31*C. Here is a full screencap of CPUID HWMonitor (http://puu.sh/gmKVl.png). Feel free to reference my claims on the following thread (). I cannot get my thermal node close enough to the CPU without opening my chassis, which disrupts the temperature of the case, thus resulting in an inaccurate reading.

[CoolaxGaming]

Would it be possible for the physical CPU to be cooler than the ambient temperature of the case? If that is the case, then my build should evenly and thoroughly be at a temperature of 70*C, the mean temperature of my hottest unit, the GPU. Following my thought process of parts being cooler than the ambient temperature of the case, there are going to be hot zones and cold zones in a computer (which I know there are, hot zones being the GPU and CPU usually, and cold zones being the areas that are unoccupied), and any given part of the computer could be anywhere between those temperatures. I also might be basing my claims off of the wrong numbers, I was going off the AMD FX-8350 tree, while the motherboard tree shows the CPU at closer to 31*C. Here is a full screencap of CPUID HWMonitor (http://puu.sh/gmKVl.png). Feel free to reference my claims on the following thread (). I cannot get my thermal node close enough to the CPU without opening my chassis, which disrupts the temperature of the case, thus resulting in an inaccurate reading.

No it cant. Because since everything is producing different amounts of heat, all the temps are different. If you were running all the fans and everything with all the parts off, your Ambient temp = Parts temp

[JarJarBanksy]

Well air will sometimes be cooler than room temp, because objects retain heat better than air, so when air is moving at a high speed, it is cooler.

 

Try this: Put your hand half an inch away from your mouth, breathe out gently, what do you get? Warm air. Then. Blow hard, cold air. You may be able to get lower than ambient, but it doesn't really matter.

 

But either way it's just not possible.

Just because the air is moving quickly does not make it cooler. It changes how it feels, yes, but not the actual temperature of the air.

 

Think about wind chill. Wind makes the cold air feel colder