Whole Room Water Cooling Part 5a

[luckygriff]

 Also, a custom reservoir made from stainless steel and tig welded won't have any manufacturing contamination, such as one made from aluminum or carbon steel, that has possibly been mig welded together.

I would not be so concerned with the manufacturing process, more the material selection and the care taken in production.  You can have you stainless sheet contaminated with something just the same.  Aluminum would be a easier and cheaper choice over stainless, as well it usually is one the the cleanest materials you get in raw sheet but water cooling people are scared of using it.  In any case most of any junk just gets washed out when you hydro test the tank anyways.

[Kellytm3]

 Send me the dimensions of the reservoir and I'll fabricate and tig together one from brushed, stainless steel sheeting, that will look better, and hold up longer than the one you've got.

[stconquest]

Don't forget that certain types of Anti-freeze, when mixed with oils, and heated, basically turns into a waxy substance.

 

I am not a chemist man! 

[Trik'Stari]

 Send me the dimensions of the reservoir and I'll fabricate and tig together one from brushed, stainless steel sheeting, that will look better, and hold up longer than the one you've got.

a length of large diameter PVC pipe as a reservoir would be cheaper, and last longer.

 

Although not look as good...unless you put temperature and pressure gauges on it, and gate valves on the in an out lines just for looks lol

[Tam3n]

Hmm... Surely it was not "a protective blanket" formed by the phosphate in that antifreeze...

 

 

 

Historically in North America, conventional coolants have been green in color. Currently, these green coolants typically use a phosphate/ silicate mix as the main components in their inhibitor system. Conventional inhibitors like silicates and phosphates work by forming a protective blanket that actually insulates the metals from the coolant. These inhibitors can be characterized chemically as inorganic oxides (silicates, phosphates, borates, etc.). Because these inhibitor systems are depleted by forming a protective layer, conventional green coolants need to be changed at regular biennial intervals, typically every two years.

[Kellytm3]

a length of large diameter PVC pipe as a reservoir would be cheaper, and last longer.

 

Although not look as good...unless you put temperature and pressure gauges on it, and gate valves on the in an out lines just for looks lol

 

 

 if you're going through all the work for  a system like his, why on earth would you go and use PVC. Besides, I've already got plenty of sheets of brushed ss, in different gauges, in my shop, I'm willing to fab together and tig, and donate to his project. 

 

You want ghetto looks, use the pvc, you want some style and nice looks, brushed ss.

[SMURG]

Yeah, that's been a nagging thought for me. Usually, when filling a custom loop, one should buy purified (i.e. bottled) water. When I first heard about this, I assumed they'd go get a bunch of the big water cooler water tanks from a store.

Another thought: Buy Isopropyl alcohol in bulk, run the system off that? Or maybe even fluorinert? Although the latter option would be hella expensive...

Yeah as soon as he was like "yeah we just used water from the hose because that was literally the only way to fill it" I immediately thought "this is gonna go bad".

For what it's worth though, using watercooler tanks wouldn't have really helped. The water we drink has a lot of microscopic life in it, and there's all sorts just in the air and virtually everywhere. Something would have got in there eventually but I actually thought they'd be alright once the whole moving office thing broke, since with the water flowing constantly the build-up wouldn't have been too bad over the couple of months they'd be running it. I had no idea it'd been laying stagnant like that all this time though - that's probably where they went really wrong.

Filling that loop with anything but water would be hella expensive which is probably why they didn't. There also aren't many low viscosity fluids with high boiling points and low freezing points which are completely unable to support life, have good specific heat capacity and are reasonably cheap so I understand why they decided to go with tap water despite it being an obviously terrible idea. The problem with alcohols is that they're volatile and vapourise easily - the last thing you want is all your coolant turning into gaseous vapours. They're also good solvents which isn't especially helpful.

In all honesty, mineral oil would probably have made a decent choice since nothing will grow in that and it's reasonable at removing heat - although if you're buying that much mineral oil you might as well stick the machines in tanks and not bother with waterblocks lol.

[Trik'Stari]

 if you're going through all the work for  a system like his, why on earth would you go and use PVC. Besides, I've already got plenty of sheets of brushed ss, in different gauges, in my shop, I'm willing to fab together and tig, and donate to his project. 

 

You want ghetto looks, use the pvc, you want some style and nice looks, brushed ss.

PVC is cheaper, easier to put together, easier (somewhat) to modify, longer lifespan, better chemical resistance compared to steel, etc.

 

I'd have used PVC on the entire system and just painted it the color of the wall.

 

Remember, you're speaking to someone who comes from a place where most PVC is used for things other than plumbing...namely potato guns for the most part, air and combustion type....and a flamethrower that we never tested because we were all too chicken shit to strap it on and fire it up lol

 

Edit: We also made an 8 foot long "rocket launcher" style air powered potato gun. Had the barrel inside the pressure chamber. Never got it working because we couldn't find the correct kind of sprinkler valve to create a quick release firing valve.

[Kellytm3]

 

 

and I'm talking using 304 ss, and it will last longer than pvc.  304 ss isn't apt to being broken, like pvc, and its corrosion life span, will out live any of us. The doors and hinges I make for CM5 machines gets hosed and washed down with alkaline cleaners multiple times a day. In the past 13 years, I've yet to have a corrosive door comeback.

 

PVC is for backyard amateurs.

[tobben]

Just want to say that over editing it takes away from the actual footage

and initial video..

 

and holy crap, all the problems you guys run into. Getting tired from just

watching it

[Trik'Stari]

and I'm talking using 304 ss, and it will last longer than pvc.  304 ss isn't apt to being broken, like pvc, and its corrosion life span, will out live any of us. The doors and hinges I make for CM5 machines gets hosed and washed down with alkaline cleaners multiple times a day. In the past 13 years, I've yet to have a corrosive door comeback.

 

PVC is for backyard amateurs.

Meh, I've seen stainless rust and corrode before.

 

What doesn't make sense to me, is how an organism could grow inside the whole room water cooling loop, when most of the pipes it uses are copper. Isn't copper supposed to be anti-microbial?

[Bassdriver]

I think you guys hav gone the wrong way.

With an system which ist divided in two parts you have less problems.

 

A system linke this is a option

 

-With higher water pressure you can use smaller pumps which can save power and there is less noise.

for this small system this pump only uses 4W

 

-The PC loops are on their own. So you can work easily on them.

-The water flow in the big loop is assured.

-The big loop is closed so no "alien bacteria"

-The small loops are separeted so no contamination between them

 

 

Ps. i am german and i am not god in gramatics sorry for that.

 

 

[Kellytm3]

Meh, I've seen stainless rust and corrode before.

 

What doesn't make sense to me, is how an organism could grow inside the whole room water cooling loop, when most of the pipes it uses are copper. Isn't copper supposed to be anti-microbial?

 

I've seen ss rust and corrode as well under certain conditions. No problem, fab it out of AISI316L. Its not like the reservoir is outside, exposed to elements 24/7, and being rubbed and fingered like a prom queen.

 

My expertise is machining and fabrication, I'm pretty sure my knowledge in these areas over the past 25 years exceeds your own.

[Trik'Stari]

I've seen ss rust and corrode as well under certain conditions. No problem, fab it out of AISI316L. Its not like the reservoir is outside, exposed to elements 24/7, and being rubbed and fingered like a prom queen.

 

My expertise is machining and fabrication, I'm pretty sure my knowledge in these areas over the past 25 years exceeds your own.

Fair enough. I do like stainless, just so damned expensive by comparison to other things.

[Samsterstorm]

Finally man!

 

Hope that shit gets out! Should send it off and find out what it is! 

[unijab]

I agree with the guy that said you shouldn't use tap water with antifreeze.

[Awesomeo]

Hi Linus,

 

To sterilise the water you could do a couple of things. One would be to introduce a UV aquarium filter inline somewhere; it's likely an expensive route and I'm not sure how effective it would be in your use case. 

Alternatively, you could buy some clinical grade disinfectant concentrate. In the UK we use Hycolin, which even at concentrations of 2.5% is highly effective at killing microorganisms, particularly hard to kill ones like Pseudomonas which would prove problematic in a system like yours.

 

I think a combination of both would be best, but either one alone would be an improvement.

[bill704]

Just watched your Part 5a video and I believe that the sinmy mess you have there is called "Microbiologically influenced corrosion" or MIC.

 

The fire protection industry have been battling MIC for a long time. Essentially this MIC will eventually - over time "eat" through our steel sprinkler piping.

Back in the day, it wasn't that immediate of a problem because we piped our fire protection systems with schedule 40 pipe. In current time we changed

over to schedule 10 and sometime schedule 5 pipe (depending how the engineer designed the sysyem); now the MIC has less material to "eat" through

and our industry as a whole has been dealing with this problem.

 

In the video you rinsed and shook out of that tank a snot-like glob, that the MIC, and as you well know, it'll clog up your water blocks over time.

 

What I would do to remedy the problem (this is just MY opinion):

1) Replace the steel tank with a polyethlene tank that have the same fitting layout - Wnen you kill-off the MIC the unprotected steel will still rust and discolor the coolant and clear tubing.

    The poly sprayer tanks you see mounted on the backs of four-wheelers for garden spraying comes to mind, and they have a huge fill port that can let you clean out the insides too.

2) Use chlorine  or hydrogen peroxide (biocides) to kill the MIC.

3) Use some detergent ( a surfactant) to get rid of the oily film from inside of the piping.

4) treat your new coolant with biocide or maybe use "sacrificial" silver (I have NO experience with using silver and cannot vouch for it).

 

Just my 2 cents worth, good luck with your project.

 

Ps. Here's an excerpt from page 321 - 322 of the 2008 NFPA Water-Based Fire Protection Handbook:

 

Microbiologically influenced corrosion (MIC): Corrosion initiated or accelerated by the
presence and activities of microorganisms, including bacteria and fungi. Colonies (also
called bio-films and slimes) are formed in the surface of pipes among a variety of types
of microbes. Microbes deposit iron, manganese, and various salts into the pipe surfaces,
forming nodules, tubercles, and carbuncles. The formation of these deposits can cause
obstruction to flow and dislodge, causing blockage (plugging) of system piping, valves,
and sprinklers.

MIC can be found in many types of piping systems, not just water-based fire protection systems.
MIC is thought to be responsible for 10 to 30 percent of corrosion in all piping systems
in the United States.

Generally, two types of bacteria are responsible for MIC: sulfate-reducing bacteria (SRB)
and acid-producing bacteria (APB). SRB are anaerobic (not requiring oxygen) and are typically
found in carbon steel systems. APB are also anaerobic but can survive in aerated or
anaerobic environments. APB will produce acids that stimulate SRB growth.
MIC can survive in a variety of environments from 0 to 100 percent oxygen-saturated
water and water with a pH from I to 10. MIC can be recognized by the presence of a gray or
black mud-like slime (typical of anaerobic bacteria) or a brown or rusty color (typical of aerobic
bacteria).

Once established, MIC will create nodules on the inner surface of pipe. Left untreated,
this will result in pitting of the pipe wall and eventual pinhole leaks (although pinhole leaks
can be caused by other factors). Nodules can also increase in size, causing obstruction to
waterflow. Exhibits D.8, D.9, and D.10 illustrate pipe with nodules from MIC.
If the presence of MIC is suspected, water samples should be taken and analyzed before
treatment is initiated. In cases of extreme pitting, the affected pipe should be replaced. In addition,
the water supplying the system should be treated with a biocide, such as chlorine, to prevent
recurrence of the problem.

Exhibits D.11, D.12, and D.13 illustrate pipe with moderate to severe pitting and copper
pipe with pitting and a pinhole leak. Where pitting is not extensive, flushing the entire system
with a chemical cleaning agent to remove nodules is recommended. After flushing, the system
should be refilled with treated water to prevent recurrence of MIC.

 

END

[SMURG]

Meh, I've seen stainless rust and corrode before.

 

What doesn't make sense to me, is how an organism could grow inside the whole room water cooling loop, when most of the pipes it uses are copper. Isn't copper supposed to be anti-microbial?

Well firstly the water was left stagnant for months on end with the water in that reservoir, so stuff was gonna grow anyway.

Without getting into the exact mechanics, microbes also have lots of clever ways of getting around any toxic substances they find in their environment, and natural selection ofc means that only species resistant to metal ions will be able to grow where they're present. Whilst I'd need to take a sample into the lab, I'd hazard a guess that what Linus had going on was possibly a biofilm, where bacteria make a kind of sticky mesh to live in that protects them from the things they don't like - incidentally this is a common occurance in those big watercooler things you see in offices; bacteria love to make biofilms in those. This would also make sense since I think biofilms can exacerbate corrosion as @bill704 describes.

Alternatively what he had growing was a plant, or possibly a fungus, and they generally don't give a damn about metal ions any more than we do - any sensitivity they do have would require much greater concentrations than are going to be in that loop - especially since as I already pointed out the water was left stagnant for ages and wasn't even circulating through the copper.

TL;DR microbes are literally everywhere, and if you use untreated water for a watercooling loop you're gonna have a bad time. Especially if you leave it stagnant.

In other words, life will find a way lol

[NateGSR117]

Jezzz, you guys can't catch a break. At least you know now, and know what to do (next video please!)

[Trik'Stari]

Well firstly the water was left stagnant for months on end with the water in that reservoir, so stuff was gonna grow anyway.

Without getting into the exact mechanics, microbes also have lots of clever ways of getting around any toxic substances they find in their environment, and natural selection ofc means that only species resistant to metal ions will be able to grow where they're present. Whilst I'd need to take a sample into the lab, I'd hazard a guess that what Linus had going on was possibly a biofilm, where bacteria make a kind of sticky mesh to live in that protects them from the things they don't like - incidentally this is a common occurance in those big watercooler things you see in offices; bacteria love to make biofilms in those. This would also make sense since I think biofilms can exacerbate corrosion as @bill704 describes.

Alternatively what he had growing was a plant, or possibly a fungus, and they generally don't give a damn about metal ions any more than we do - any sensitivity they do have would require much greater concentrations than are going to be in that loop - especially since as I already pointed out the water was left stagnant for ages and wasn't even circulating through the copper.

TL;DR microbes are literally everywhere, and if you use untreated water for a watercooling loop you're gonna have a bad time. Especially if you leave it stagnant.

In other words, life will find a way lol

*insert jeff goldblum meme here*

 

I had not considered all of that. I guess next time they should just use vodka+water instead of antifreeze+water

[sgloux3470]

TL;DR microbes are literally everywhere, and if you use untreated water for a watercooling loop you're gonna have a bad time. Especially if you leave it stagnant.

In other words, life will find a way lol

 

This is really the crux of everything.

 

It would be worth the investment to pump DI water through the loop.  

[Elite7x]

So based on the investment of new equipment to help the loop, are we likely to see a similar water cooling setup in the new place?

[Mbarton]

"automotive coolant instead of automotive antifreeze"

Ummm those are the same thing, the mix ratio is more the concern I would think, as well using normal tap water instead of distilled or deionized water.  The steel hydraulic reservoir should not be to bad with a high anti freeze mix, but rust and corrosion can always occur with mild steel.  If they want I can offer to make a custom stainless steel reservoir for them as I am local.

That would cool. and yea those are the same thing just rebrands 

[Mbarton]

Ok who jizzed in the whole room watercooling loop.