NVIDIA Responds to AMD Allegations

[PortentousLad]

Hm I sure want to rant a bit myself but I feel all has bin said. So I can only add another "shame on you Nvidia" and call it quits.

Question though does anyone have some numbers in terms of profit margins and company size retail nummbers ect.? On all of the 3 Team red, green and blue. Maybe that'll shead some light on there behaviour.

[SpaghettiCarbonara]

Hm I sure want to rant a bit myself but I feel all has bin said. So I can only add another "shame on you Nvidia" and call it quits.

Question though does anyone have some numbers in terms of profit margins and company size retail nummbers ect.? On all of the 3 Team red, green and blue. Maybe that'll shead some light on there behaviour.

 

Did a quick search, gotta grab dinnaaah. This is what I found, dunno if Ycharts is reliable or not.

 

Nvidia, AMD and Intel.

[SilenT_LobsteR]

Love how the Nvida dude says that devs that have signed up to Mantle have been "Scammed". What a moron. 

[mr moose]

""What are we being asked to do here? To not create things, so that our competitors can't cry foul that we have an advantage?""

 

(To Nvidia) Nope, just let your competition do what they need to do to give their customers a fair go.

 

 

So, because AMD is struggling to keep up with nVidia, that's nVidias fault right?

 

AMD isn't struggling to keep up with Nvidia at all. They're different companies with different long term goals and internal values. I think you'll find AMD pretty much owns most of the low-end market, just look at the consoles and lower-end processing and graphics processing, AMD is all over that.

 

 

"Personally, I think AMD need to shut the hell up."

 

If Nvidia is trying to handicap AMD in any way, AMD should make a lot of noise. Monopolies are bad for the industry.

 

"For years, they've made bold claims everytime they have a big launch coming up, be it a CPU or GPU, and it falls short of what they claim"

 

Falls short? I wouldn't say that. Look at the R9 290. Sure, it runs hotter, but it's significantly cheaper than the Nvidia equivalent (GTX 780) and performs just as good on average. Here in Australia, the R9 290 is priced between the GTX 770 (the price is juuuust a bit more, even with the 770's price being all over the place) and the GTX 780. It easily out-performs the 770 and performs equally with the 780, even better in most cases with higher resolutions (>1440p).

 

AMD cards are great for value. Just off the top of my head, cards like the HD 7950 (R9 280), the HD 7870 (R9 270x) have always been considered to be great value cards, along with the R9 290, as I've already stated. I'm pretty sure cards like the R9 270, R7 265 and the R7 260x are considered to be great value. On the super high-end, we've got the R9 295x2, which is competing with the Titan Z as dual GPU cards. AMD's card is literally half the price, runs cooler, runs quieter and performs better.

 

 

"So what are you saying here? Should nVidia turn over all of their hard work, that they invested money into, just to keep AMD and AMD customers happy?"

 

No, not to make anyone happy, but for the industry. Competition is good, but handicapping competitors is bad for any industry. Nvidia seems to want to move into a position of monopoly, which is terrible for us consumers. Might I remind you that it costs AMD money to optimise their drivers for games for their hardware too, so saying "that they invested money into," is kind of irrelevant, since both parties are doing that in this scenario.

 

 

"My bad. The point I was getting at is that, unlike Mantle, DX works regardless of whether you have an nvidia or amd gpu"

 

If AMD gets their way, Mantle will work on everything. They've said this countless times. Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't.

 

In terms of market share with regard to discrete graphics cards AMD is behind, and nvidia have the lions share. 

 

Amd as a company have been struggling financial for over a decade now and some of this has been seen in the performance of their hardware (until the R series came out there wasn't much incentive to buy AMD unless you were on a tight budget).  Unfortunately top end products and top end sales comes from years of planning and R+D,  all the big companies know this, unfortunately AMD did not have the same capital as intel/nvidia to invest in R+D and this is reflected in their efforts over the last year to push out software solutions that bolster their hardware (mantle, crossfire driver updates, free sync).  Software being cheaper to engineer (no physical prototyping).

 

I think the question is fair, Nvidia is no more screwing it's customers than AMD would had the roles been reversed.  I don't know if you guys remember back in 2003/4 when AMD owned the enthusiast market with their winchester cores, those came of the back of some very intensive R+D.  2 years later they acquired ATI which while a positive move for the industry and an invaluable asset for AMD's development of graphics cards and chipsets (just think where would their APU might be without that foundation) it wasn't enough to stop the company nose diving ***. 

 

So long story short, to still be productive, and post profits, even produce cards like the 290 and 7990 in a time when they were playing catchup is an awesome effort and one which should not be overlooked, however the idea that they are angels and offering free stuff (mantle, freesync) to gamers because they can and not because it bolsters their hardware sales, while nvidia are greedy for essentially doing the same thing is in my  mind  not accurate nor fair.

 

***there are many other reasons why this happened too, I.E intel being shits with compilers etc, however the point is had the roles been reversed nvidia or intel would just have quickly been screwed.

[LAwLz]

So long story short, to still be productive, and post profits, even produce cards like the 290 and 7990 in a time when they were playing catchup is an awesome effort and one which should not be overlooked, however the idea that they are angels and offering free stuff (mantle, freesync) to gamers because they can and not because it bolsters their hardware sales, while nvidia are greedy for essentially doing the same thing is in my mind not accurate nor fair.

Good post but I would like to add that Mantle is in no way "open" or "free". I still don't understand why everyone seem to think it is. It's propritary (as in AMD own all the rights to it) and it's closed source.

The only reason why people think it is open is because AMD said they plan on opening it up in the future. That means jack shit until they actually do it though. I mean, I doubt people would believe Nvidia if they said GameWorks was "open" and "free" because they planned on opening it up in the future.

 

Freesync wasn't really AMD's invention either. They took a VESA standard and put it in desktop monitors. They played a big role in bringing it to market (working with monitor manufacturers and such) but in the end it's VESA that is giving their technology away, not their own.

 

 

People love rooting for the underdog.

[SpaghettiCarbonara]

In terms of market share with regard to discrete graphics cards AMD is behind, and nvidia have the lions share. 

 

Amd as a company have been struggling financial for over a decade now and some of this has been seen in the performance of their hardware (until the R series came out there wasn't much incentive to buy AMD unless you were on a tight budget).  Unfortunately top end products and top end sales comes from years of planning and R+D,  all the big companies know this, unfortunately AMD did not have the same capital as intel/nvidia to invest in R+D and this is reflected in their efforts over the last year to push out software solutions that bolster their hardware (mantle, crossfire driver updates, free sync).  Software being cheaper to engineer (no physical prototyping).

 

I think the question is fair, Nvidia is no more screwing it's customers than AMD would had the roles been reversed.  I don't know if you guys remember back in 2003/4 when AMD owned the enthusiast market with their winchester cores, those came of the back of some very intensive R+D.  2 years later they acquired ATI which while a positive move for the industry and an invaluable asset for AMD's development of graphics cards and chipsets (just think where would their APU might be without that foundation) it wasn't enough to stop the company nose diving ***. 

 

So long story short, to still be productive, and post profits, even produce cards like the 290 and 7990 in a time when they were playing catchup is an awesome effort and one which should not be overlooked, however the idea that they are angels and offering free stuff (mantle, freesync) to gamers because they can and not because it bolsters their hardware sales, while nvidia are greedy for essentially doing the same thing is in my  mind  not accurate nor fair.

 

***there are many other reasons why this happened too, I.E intel being shits with compilers etc, however the point is had the roles been reversed nvidia or intel would just have quickly been screwed.

 

Yeah, this makes sense. I guess in the end all corporations are all out for profit, which can get in the way of actually treating their customers like people when the money starts actually rolling in.

 

I was unaware of the 2003/2004 Winchester core thing. I was like 8 or 9 then, so I wasn't really into computers back then as much as I am now

 

Good post but I would like to add that Mantle is in no way "open" or "free". I still don't understand why everyone seem to think it is. It's propritary (as in AMD own all the rights to it) and it's closed source.

The only reason why people think it is open is because AMD said they plan on opening it up in the future. That means jack shit until they actually do it though. I mean, I doubt people would believe Nvidia if they said GameWorks was "open" and "free" because they planned on opening it up in the future.

 

Freesync wasn't really AMD's invention either. They took a VESA standard and put it in desktop monitors. They played a big role in bringing it to market (working with monitor manufacturers and such) but in the end it's VESA that is giving their technology away, not their own.

 

 

People love rooting for the underdog.

 

I can agree with this too. I guess until it actually becomes open, we'll never know. You're right, nothing any corporation says really means anything until it becomes reality, unless they're owned by Elon Musk or Gaben

[Me1z]

All I'm getting out of this is that they didn't actually respond to anything. This entire interview can be summed up with "Corporate doesn't want me to admit anything, so instead lets talk about cuda cores and how AMD is the devil trying to steal developer's souls with mantle." With the 8XX series around the corner Nvidia should really just keep quiet and try not to make the situation worse. The more you dodge questions the less I want to give you my money, get it?

[Misanthrope]

[7850OC]

I don't have a link but this is a repost.

can you prove it ?

 

Oh sorry, didn't found it in the first page... my bad!

 

 

Well they avoid some of the points MaximumPC dropped on them, when they touched the Gameworks contracts NVIDIA reached the point where they say something like "AMD lied... well you are free to ask anything to developers... well not anything, ask them:  "do you have access to the gameworks source code?" don't ask them more then that"

Then NVIDIA says they are the only ones who push gaming forward... MaximumPC brought Mantle after they said that, and NVIDIA says there are no real benefits on Mantle, they don't see it so they wont support it, then this happened:

http://youtu.be/aG2kIUerD4c?t=20m59s

Where he basicly said that DirectX12 is receiving features from uh... Mantle, but he doesn't say Mantle ... changes the statement to "it will have the benefits of a low lvl api"... So mantle doesn't have benefits, but DX12 Mantle features are worth supporting. Eh.

They brought the over tesselation on crysis, because the water was being tesselated under the island... and NVIDIA "doesn't remember that was a while ago, maybe was a bug, yadayada"... so yeah, they avoided it and called it a conspiracy.

They wont comment Freesync.

In the middle of all of that its all about "let's go back to this, lets talk this about NVIDIA, we are this good"... they tried to lead the interview the way they wanted. Sad.

so true

 

Seeing the performance drop of peoples videos on youtube in Watch Dogs on r290's with 4 gigs of VRAM well after release, I am going to say Nvidia is full of @$%^. Add to that the game ran like crap on everything so I see no point to the Game Works thing other than creating an artificial separation in performance. It is supposed to get our games more optimized and I would say it is doing a pretty piss poor job.

 

Nvidia might as well pull support from Steam OS with all the MS ass they kiss. Someone might also want to ask Nvidia if DX 12 is so great now, why the hell we have to wait until Holiday 2015 for it. Oh yeah...cus MS wants us to buy a new OS and or buy their crappy console.

 

When API's are two years apart and a 100 dollar OS upgrade away (seeing that the vast majority of PC gamers are still on Win 7), "Mantle not being needed" is an invalid and idiotic statement from Nvidia. 

 

2 years of getting screwed by MS who has prevented us from even getting DirectX 11.2 games, by withholding the API update is not awesome Nvidia. That is WHY Mantle is needed. Support like (below list) this makes it very easy for me to recommend an AMD GPU over an Nvidia GPU for anyone who doesn't have an overclocked I5 or I7. I think it is pretty funny that Nvidia thinks we are all on 4770 k's 4790k's and OC Hexa's though. Nvidia might want to look at the average gaming PC on Steam, cus the majority sure as hell aren't on those CPU's. Nvidia also obviously hasn't played an MMO where my 4770k at 4.5 ghz can sink to 30 fps lows in Guild Wars 2 or Wild Star. 

 

awesome reply friend, a very disappointed interview

 

 

 

(i hope many people realize how full of crap they really are on the inside after this interview, excuse my french) 

[aom]

I lost all respect for Nvidia.

[BallGum]

The simplest solution for all of this would be if gameworks features could be implemented with an off switch. That's why I don't see bringing up Mantle as a solid counter argument, even if it turns out to be closed (which I don't see happening), as it doesn't have the potential to negatively affect nVidia users (as they can use the DX version). 

 

Whether we like it or not, it's clear that Gameworks can be used to sabotage AMD cards, but whether or not this actually happened is up for debate. Seeing the performance of Watch Dogs does suggest that something wasn't right.

 

The problem then becomes how to resolve the issue. The only thing I see is the ability to turn off gameworks features on the fly through an options menu. This is up to the developers to do.

[mr moose]

Good post but I would like to add that Mantle is in no way "open" or "free". I still don't understand why everyone seem to think it is. It's propritary (as in AMD own all the rights to it) and it's closed source.

The only reason why people think it is open is because AMD said they plan on opening it up in the future. That means jack shit until they actually do it though. I mean, I doubt people would believe Nvidia if they said GameWorks was "open" and "free" because they planned on opening it up in the future.

 

Freesync wasn't really AMD's invention either. They took a VESA standard and put it in desktop monitors. They played a big role in bringing it to market (working with monitor manufacturers and such) but in the end it's VESA that is giving their technology away, not their own.

 

 

People love rooting for the underdog.

 

In Australia rooting for the underdog is compulsory. :lol:

[mr moose]

 

 

I was unaware of the 2003/2004 Winchester core thing. I was like 8 or 9 then, so I wasn't really into computers back then as much as I am now

 

 

fair enough, might also interest you to know they were first to produce the 64bit architecture designed with a lower clock, making them an overclockers cream cake.

[ajoy39]

AMD has no need, or right, to demand access to Nvidia's source code. AMD lied and claimed their was no source code for Gameworks, and it all works off .dll files. So either Nvidia is being unfair by not giving them access to it, or it doesn't exist, can't be both.

AMD optimizing a game that uses Physx in no way requires AMD to have access to the Physx source code. AMD has never had access to it, yet they have been optimizing games for years that use it. Nvidia offering a package of services under Gameworks changes nothing, because it's all the same stuff that AMD has never had access to in the past, Nvidia is just no longer selling access licenses on a piecemeal basis. 

 

AMD has no way to optimize for Physx, what are you talking about? That's why advanced phsyx effects aren't available on AMD cards.

[Victorious Secret]

AMD can't complain about open source bullshit when they won't even make Mantle open source RIGHT NOW. 

 

Keep up the talk AMD, lets see you actually do something about it. 

[VulsaviiK]

People seem very split on this one, but I guess so has been the customer base between AMD and Nvidia.

 

 

"So what are you saying here? Should nVidia turn over all of their hard work, that they invested money into, just to keep AMD and AMD customers happy?"

 

No, not to make anyone happy, but for the industry. Competition is good, but handicapping competitors is bad for any industry. Nvidia seems to want to move into a position of monopoly, which is terrible for us consumers. Might I remind you that it costs AMD money to optimise their drivers for games for their hardware too, so saying "that they invested money into," is kind of irrelevant, since both parties are doing that in this scenario.

 

"My bad. The point I was getting at is that, unlike Mantle, DX works regardless of whether you have an nvidia or amd gpu"

 

If AMD gets their way, Mantle will work on everything. They've said this countless times. Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't.

 

Competition implies on company is trying to get ahead of their competitors. It might cost both companies money to optimize drivers, but proprietary technologies, like gameworks and mantle, only cost on party money.

 

You say Mantle will work on everything. Just like AMD promises it will work on everything. Just like Tony Abbott promised no cuts to health and education, or increased taxes. And since I see you're from Australia, you'll see that the Liberals, heading by Tony Abbott, broke every single election promise in the first budget. If anything, that should be a lesson to look at bold claims cautiously until they're delivered. So in conclusion:

 

 

If AMD follows through on what they claim, Mantle will work on everything. They've said this countless times. Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it will.

 

Fixed that for you

[Dietrichw]

AMD can't complain about open source bullshit when they won't even make Mantle open source RIGHT NOW. 

 

Keep up the talk AMD, lets see you actually do something about it. 

AMD said it can run on other brands of GPU and somewhat put it as if they want mantle they have to ask. Nvidia won't ask as it would go against their image and how they have done things in the past. Intel did ask AMD for Mantle as they wanted to play and experiment with it, although it was never made public if AMD denied or accepted Intel's request. 

[Guest]

Far to long. 

[MegaDave91]

Far to long. 

 It's a good watch. I watched it all from start to finish yesterday.

[Guest]

 It's a good watch. I watched it all from start to finish yesterday.

I'll watch it later. I'm working on a powerpoint for my upcoming buildlog so i'll watch it then.

[mr moose]

People seem very split on this one, but I guess so has been the customer base between AMD and Nvidia.

 

 

 

Competition implies on company is trying to get ahead of their competitors. It might cost both companies money to optimize drivers, but proprietary technologies, like gameworks and mantle, only cost on party money.

 

You say Mantle will work on everything. Just like AMD promises it will work on everything. Just like Tony Abbott promised no cuts to health and education, or increased taxes. And since I see you're from Australia, you'll see that the Liberals, heading by Tony Abbott, broke every single election promise in the first budget. If anything, that should be a lesson to look at bold claims cautiously until they're delivered. So in conclusion:

 

 

 

Fixed that for you

 

please don't bring politics into this, aside from starting a heated debate about something that is not related, your comments make you sound biased and don't fairly portrait politics in Australia.

[RuecanOnRails]

A question I would like to see brought up, is why are they so against hybrid solutions.

The ability to purchase a dedicated physx card regardless of the primary gpu or overall system would allow the proprietary competition to continue, and reduce anti-consumer behavior. The split and damage done to the gaming community as a whole is what I don't like to see, it holds back what could be great technology and innovation. A simple solution in my opinion would be to allow AMD card users to make use of an nvidia card as well for physx, cuda, etc and officially support the secondary card.

 

It could even be a great marketing ploy to bolster sales of their lower end GPU's which some could be re-branded as dedicated physx cards.

[NeatSquidYT]

"The way you meant to be played"

Do you actually have a Xeon?

[xAcid9]

Do you actually have a Xeon?

 

Yes sir, problem?

[NeatSquidYT]

Yes sir, problem?

No, it's just I've never actually seen a human being with a Xeon