Apple terminates Epic Games Developer Account (again)

[creat0r]

Summary

Epic Games says Apple has taken down its newly reinstated developer account in the EU. In a blog post, Epic partially blames a tweet where they criticized Apple's reason for doing so. Epic says this hinders its plans to launch a competing app marketplace in the EU. The game maker also says that Apple has called them a "threat to their ecosystem." The tweet(s) in question:

 

 

Quotes

Quote

"Epic Games recently regained access to its primary developer account — at least for a few weeks. From Epic’s latest blog post today: We recently announced that Apple approved our Epic Games Sweden AB developer account. We intended to use that account to bring the Epic Games Store and Fortnite to iOS devices in Europe thanks to the Digital Markets Act (DMA). To our surprise, Apple has terminated that account and now we cannot develop the Epic Games Store for iOS. This is a serious violation of the DMA and shows Apple has no intention of allowing true competition on iOS devices." - 9To5Mac

 

My thoughts

I really like Apple's products, but they are a very toxic company and very hostile to their developers and users. As a iOS/macOS developer myself, I can say that Apple has made the EU's Digital Markets Acts as horrible for developers as possible by making it an unattractive, expensive, and frustrating experience when trying to use anything other than the App Store to distribute apps.

 

Sources

https://9to5mac.com/2024/03/06/epic-games-dev-account-dead/ 

[TempestCatto]

It seems there's always some kind of drama with any major tech company. You can please the masses, but you can't please the asses.

[Lightwreather]

Apple's statement (from the same source article) incase you're wondering:

Quote

Apple has since released a statement characterizing the situation as follows:

“Epic’s egregious breach of its contractual obligations to Apple led courts to determine that Apple has the right to terminate ‘any or all of Epic Games’ wholly owned subsidiaries, affiliates, and/or other entities under Epic Games’ control at any time and at Apple’s sole discretion.’ In light of Epic’s past and ongoing behavior, Apple chose to exercise that right.”

 

[Lunar River]

I feel like apples lawyers have been scrambling since the day they gave access back to find any reason kick them again hoping to find any reason that might stick.

 

Pretty children

[PDifolco]

51 minutes ago, Lightwreather said:

Apple's statement (from the same source article) incase you're wondering:

 

Hilarious

They p*ss off any competitor then go crying they're mean and ban them

Apple needs another 2 billion fine  

[Brooksie359]

15 minutes ago, PDifolco said:

Hilarious

They p*ss off any competitor then go crying they're mean and ban them

Apple needs another 2 billion fine  

Epic games went and violated apples terms of service. Epic games went and sued and the court determined that apple is justified in the banning and can ban them. Sure this did end up leading to the EUs new laws that require side loading and other regulations but that is a separate issue. Honestly it would be a bad example to make if they let epic get away with violating tos and litigating them about it. The idea that apple should get fined for following a courts determination is super dumb. 

[PDifolco]

2 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

Epic games went and violated apples terms of service. Epic games went and sued and the court determined that apple is justified in the banning and can ban them. Sure this did end up leading to the EUs new laws that require side loading and other regulations but that is a separate issue. Honestly it would be a bad example to make if they let epic get away with violating tos and litigating them about it. The idea that apple should get fined for following a courts determination is super dumb. 

Ok, I'm an Apple hater admittedly, didn't read the ruling  

What did Epic do to violate Apple ToS ? (suspecting the ToS were unusable/unacceptable from the start)

[Brooksie359]

41 minutes ago, PDifolco said:

Ok, I'm an Apple hater admittedly, didn't read the ruling  

What did Epic do to violate Apple ToS ? (suspecting the ToS were unusable/unacceptable from the start)

It was in the lawsuit but I think the biggest violation was circumventing apples payment system to sell in app items. Sure now they would be allowed to do that but at the time when they violated tos it wasn't allowed. This is what started the original lawsuit and the court basically gave Apple the go ahead to permaban epic. 

[Brooksie359]

58 minutes ago, PDifolco said:

Ok, I'm an Apple hater admittedly, didn't read the ruling  

What did Epic do to violate Apple ToS ? (suspecting the ToS were unusable/unacceptable from the start)

One thing that might make it a bit complicated is that I think that the court ruling was in the US and not the EU so it might be the case where the EU would require apple to unban epic in the EU. 

[creat0r]

2 hours ago, Lightwreather said:

In light of Epic’s past and ongoing behavior, Apple chose to exercise that right.

The weird thing is that Apple reinstated Epic's developer account, just to remove it again?

[creat0r]

@Brooksie359 From my understanding: yes, the unban of Epic's developer account was in the EU.

[PDifolco]

29 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

It was in the lawsuit but I think the biggest violation was circumventing apples payment system to sell in app items. Sure now they would be allowed to do that but at the time when they violated tos it wasn't allowed. This is what started the original lawsuit and the court basically gave Apple the go ahead to permaban epic. 

Ok got it

Apple system is closer to extorsion than payment tho  

[creat0r]

Phil Schiller sent an email to Epic's Tim:

 

[PDifolco]

13 hours ago, creat0r said:

Phil Schiller sent an email to Epic's Tim:

 

But that's just saying truth

 

[PDifolco]

I also love the Apple utter bad faith reasoning masquerading as "law"

In substance "oh you criticize us so (blah blah) eventually put the world in danger and should thus be terminated" 

 

They should be renamed Arasapple

 

 

[IkeaGnome]

14 minutes ago, PDifolco said:

They should be renamed Arasapple

I’m sorry, but what did Apple do wrong here?

[Kisai]

39 minutes ago, IkeaGnome said:

I’m sorry, but what did Apple do wrong here?

Nothing.

 

Epic has foot-in-mouth disease. This is why they say "don't poop where you eat", if you want to work in a specific industry, you do NOT criticize it. If you, or your company decide to do something that offends another company, that company just, refuse to deal with you.

 

No company is obligated to be a customer to another.

 

[Spotty]

I'm not too familiar with Apple's developer accounts. How exactly does this hamper Epic's ability to build a rival app marketplace for iOS devices? They can't develop for the iOS operating system at all without a developer account? Or do they just not have access to publish apps on the Apple app store? If they're making a rival app store do they need a developer account?

[PDifolco]

1 hour ago, IkeaGnome said:

I’m sorry, but what did Apple do wrong here?

They give a purely conjectural "reasoning" ending up assimilating criticism of their DCMA "implementation"  with "safety concern" as an excuse for their ban

I see nothing in their text pointing to a factual breach of any ToS, it's very vague

[BrandonTech.05]

Apple makes it so hard for me to like them. I have the same opinion of apple that I do nvidia. Great product and performance, terrible company. But lets be real with ourselves. Are any options good at this point? Google is pretty much my only other viable option and they suck in many aspects too.

 

Conclusion: People are always gonna people and most people act on behalf of themselves before others. 

[IkeaGnome]

25 minutes ago, PDifolco said:

They give a purely conjectural "reasoning" ending up assimilating criticism of their DCMA "implementation"  with "safety concern" as an excuse for their ban

I see nothing in their text pointing to a factual breach of any ToS, it's very vague

You highlighted the wrong sentence from the letter above. One reason was as you say “conjectural”. In that same paragraph there’s 2 non conjectural reasons. 
 

Quote

In the past, Epic has entered into agreements with Apple and then broken them. For example, you testified that Epic Games, Inc. entered into the Developer Program with full understanding of its terms, and then chose to intentionally breach the agreement with Apple.

 

You also testified that Epic deliberately violated Apple’s rules, to make a point and for financial gain. More recently, you have described our DMA compliance plan as “hot garbage,” a “horror show,” and a “devious new instance of Malicious Compliance.” And you have complained about what you called “Junk Fees” and “Apple taxes.”

I’m sorry, but they have a history of breaking agreements. 
They also TESTIFIED in a court of law that they purposefully broke Apples rules to make a point and profit more….. 

If I go to a store and say “Hey, Im sorry, I stole from here last week” should I be surprised if I get banned from the store?

[coasterghost]

16 hours ago, creat0r said:

Phil Schiller sent an email to Epic's Tim:

 

(Bold for Emphasis) 

For example, you testified that Epic Games, Inc. entered into the Developer Program with full understanding of its terms, and then chose to intentionally breach the agreement with Apple. You also testified that Epic deliberately violated Apple's rules, to make a point and for financial gain. More recently, you have described our DMA compliance plan as "hot garbage," a "horror show," and a "devious new instance of Malicious Compliance." And you have complained about what you called "Junk Fees" and "Apple taxes."

 

Your colorful criticism of our DMA compliance plan, coupled with Epic's past practice of intentionally violating contractual provisions with which it disagrees, strongly suggest that Epic Sweden does not intend to follow the rules.

 

This was after Apple Legal told Tim Sweeney "No" the first time in 2020 about alternate payments. (I blacked out the emails) 

 

So... Apple is justified here. Also if the EU were to rule for Epic, they would be overstepping their boundaries and a U.S. Court ruling and that opens the headache of cross-jurisdiction. Allowing user choice is one thing, but then you be forcing a company to create a special set of terms and services for a sole person because they had a temper tantrum is another.

 

Context to the quoted email I shared (Court filing PDFs).
Email 1 (June 30th, 2020)

Apple's Legal Department Response dated July 10, 2020

Email 2 (July 17th, 2020)

Email 3 (August 13th, 2020)

 

I'm sorry, Tim Sweeney seems to be the type that when they get killed in a FPS, they would throw the controller at the screen and cry cheater.

[wanderingfool2]

2 hours ago, coasterghost said:

So... Apple is justified here. Also if the EU were to rule for Epic, they would be overstepping their boundaries and a U.S. Court ruling and that opens the headache of cross-jurisdiction. Allowing user choice is one thing, but then you be forcing a company to create a special set of terms and services for a sole person because they had a temper tantrum is another.

Except that Apple DID issue a developers license to Epic.  To bad for Apple.  It's funny how they essentially talk about rug pulling and yet that is effectively what they are doing here.

 

Overall Apple also won the case in the US because it wasn't classified as a monopoly in the eyes of the law; had they been though it would have meant Epic would have won and those contracts provisions would have been void.

 

As much as I dont necessarily like Epic, they do have a point against Apple and Apple shouldn't be allowed to essentially bar them from competing on the Apple platform.

[da na]

19 hours ago, creat0r said:

Phil Schiller sent an email to Epic's Tim:

 

 

Aint no way the corpoguy's name is "Shiller"

[PDifolco]

3 hours ago, coasterghost said:

(Bold for Emphasis) 

For example, you testified that Epic Games, Inc. entered into the Developer Program with full understanding of its terms, and then chose to intentionally breach the agreement with Apple. You also testified that Epic deliberately violated Apple's rules, to make a point and for financial gain. More recently, you have described our DMA compliance plan as "hot garbage," a "horror show," and a "devious new instance of Malicious Compliance." And you have complained about what you called "Junk Fees" and "Apple taxes."

 

Your colorful criticism of our DMA compliance plan, coupled with Epic's past practice of intentionally violating contractual provisions with which it disagrees, strongly suggest that Epic Sweden does not intend to follow the rules.

 

This was after Apple Legal told Tim Sweeney "No" the first time in 2020 about alternate payments. (I blacked out the emails) 

 

So... Apple is justified here. Also if the EU were to rule for Epic, they would be overstepping their boundaries and a U.S. Court ruling and that opens the headache of cross-jurisdiction. Allowing user choice is one thing, but then you be forcing a company to create a special set of terms and services for a sole person because they had a temper tantrum is another.

 

Context to the quoted email I shared (Court filing PDFs).
Email 1 (June 30th, 2020)

Apple's Legal Department Response dated July 10, 2020

Email 2 (July 17th, 2020)

Email 3 (August 13th, 2020)

 

I'm sorry, Tim Sweeney seems to be the type that when they get killed in a FPS, they would throw the controller at the screen and cry cheater.

Just ask yourself why ,"incidentally", Apple manages to ban its main competitor exactly when it has to open its store to other brands due to EU DMA...

Legal bullshit, bad faith, all is good for Apple to cancel the DMA obligations

What they proposed was anyway totally unacceptable and contrary to the spirit of the DMA, but they gained time, and time is $$$