Apple terminates Epic Games Developer Account (again)

[Brooksie359]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

Don't have non-legal terms in the ToS 

 

Or more in this case terms that aren't quite not legal but also shouldn't be allowed to the extent Apple was. Either way Apple has little choice in the matter, refuse to give a company like Epic a developer account irrespective of all of this and it would have gone to court. Give them an account and they'll conduct themselves how they see fit per law and/or ToS with law coming first.

 

Apple shouldn't need to be concerned about it or anything, nothing they do should be a problem and if "you" are worried that your restrictions could be found faulting then maybe "you" are in the wrong.

 

Like cheating on an exam, if you are worried you'll be found out then probably shouldn't have cheated. Business don't have "morals", generalizing heavily. Point being business can act in harmful, non-ethical or otherwise less than scrupulous ways knowingly and intentionally so long as they think they have the legal right to do so.

 

Similarly to the above any person or business who may object to any such thing can knowingly choose to violate something such as ToS without breaking any laws and if both involved want to make an issue of it can take the matter to civil court which may or may not have unintended flow on effects, or entirely intentional.

 

There are a lot of things Apple does very well, preventing In-App purchase processing or even external payment information absolutely is not one of them.

I mean Apple was given the go ahead to permaban epic based on the ruling of their lawsuit with epic so not sure the law was on epics side. Also the point is that even if Apple's tos is completely legal that doesn't prevent epic from breaking tos on purpose and having a long drawn out lawsuit over the matter. I probably wouldn't want to work with such a company too even if I knew my tos was technically legal. 

[IkeaGnome]

22 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

I mean Apple was given the go ahead to permaban epic based on the ruling of their lawsuit with epic so not sure the law was on epics side. Also the point is that even if Apple's tos is completely legal that doesn't prevent epic from breaking tos on purpose and having a long drawn out lawsuit over the matter. I probably wouldn't want to work with such a company too even if I knew my tos was technically legal. 

While I agree with the vast majority of what you’re saying, I’d like to point out there is a big difference between an anti monopoly case here in the states and new legislation over there in Europe. 
Different laws, different cases, different judges, and most importantly different intent behind the laws. 
 

Essentially what’s going on right now is here in the states, what Apple did is legal. In Europe they’re looking whether that’s legal under similar but different laws. 

[Brooksie359]

43 minutes ago, IkeaGnome said:

While I agree with the vast majority of what you’re saying, I’d like to point out there is a big difference between an anti monopoly case here in the states and new legislation over there in Europe. 
Different laws, different cases, different judges, and most importantly different intent behind the laws. 
 

Essentially what’s going on right now is here in the states, what Apple did is legal. In Europe they’re looking whether that’s legal under similar but different laws. 

I don't think epic and apple have a lawsuit in the EU. 

[IkeaGnome]

9 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

I don't think epic and apple have a lawsuit in the EU. 

Lawsuit, no. However, the article in OP and the main topic of this thread is Europe based. Epic's Sweden subsidiary is what lost their developer account only for it to be reinstated.

DMA is EU legislation.

European council stated they were going to look into the ban and Apple reversed course.

 

The original 2020 lawsuit was filed in California and that is the one where you got this from;

On 3/12/2024 at 6:16 AM, Brooksie359 said:

Clearly the judge of the lawsuit didn't agree because they basically said that Apple can ban epic for life based on their bad behavior.

That's a US judge with US laws. The DMA is very different. 

 

What could happen here is Epic is allowed back on platform in the EU and outside US. Epic could then escalate that in US courts and say "There's precedent, it's allowed there." and another US judge could either agree or disagree. 

[Brooksie359]

1 hour ago, IkeaGnome said:

Lawsuit, no. However, the article in OP and the main topic of this thread is Europe based. Epic's Sweden subsidiary is what lost their developer account only for it to be reinstated.

DMA is EU legislation.

European council stated they were going to look into the ban and Apple reversed course.

 

The original 2020 lawsuit was filed in California and that is the one where you got this from;

That's a US judge with US laws. The DMA is very different. 

 

What could happen here is Epic is allowed back on platform in the EU and outside US. Epic could then escalate that in US courts and say "There's precedent, it's allowed there." and another US judge could either agree or disagree. 

That isn't how that works. They will likely always be banned in the US. The court already made a ruling on the matter and the only avenue to overturn it is by doing an appeal and epic already did that and failed. Also stuff outside the US has little to no bearing on precedent. 

[IkeaGnome]

19 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

That isn't how that works. 

 

On 3/6/2024 at 11:51 AM, Brooksie359 said:

Epic games went and violated apples terms of service. Epic games went and sued and the court determined that apple is justified in the banning and can ban them. Sure this did end up leading to the EUs new laws that require side loading and other regulations but that is a separate issue. Honestly it would be a bad example to make if they let epic get away with violating tos and litigating them about it. The idea that apple should get fined for following a courts determination is super dumb. 

On 3/12/2024 at 8:22 AM, Brooksie359 said:

I mean Apple was given the go ahead to permaban epic based on the ruling of their lawsuit with epic so not sure the law was on epics side.

 

2 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

I don't think epic and apple have a lawsuit in the EU. 

 

I'm aware. That's what I was pointing out to you. To be fair, it does seem like you acknowledged this then forgot it somewhere along the lines.

On 3/11/2024 at 2:24 AM, Brooksie359 said:

You clearly don't understand the reason why Apple banned Epic. If you had a company that criticized your tos then it's a non issue. If you have a company that criticized your tos then intentionally breaks that tos just so they could sue when they were banned for breaking tos then yeah it becomes a problem. I think Apple was alot more concerned about epic actually complying and not pulling the same bs again which is stated as much in the email to epic asking them to put into writing that they will act in good faith to not break tos. 

Bolded part. In the US, yes. Not in EU.

 

On 3/6/2024 at 12:54 PM, Brooksie359 said:

One thing that might make it a bit complicated is that I think that the court ruling was in the US and not the EU so it might be the case where the EU would require apple to unban epic in the EU. 

2 hours ago, IkeaGnome said:

Lawsuit, no. However, the article in OP and the main topic of this thread is Europe based.

 

2 hours ago, IkeaGnome said:

That's a US judge with US laws. The DMA is very different. 

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19 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

They will likely always be banned in the US. The court already made a ruling on the matter and the only avenue to overturn it is by doing an appeal and epic already did that and failed.

If only there was a higher court that can overturn a lower court's rulings... 

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19 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

Also stuff outside the US has little to no bearing on precedent.

Then why act like stuff inside the US has bearing on precedent in other countries?

[Dirtyshado]

On 3/14/2024 at 4:02 AM, IkeaGnome said:

Quote

Also stuff outside the US has little to no bearing on precedent.

 

Then why act like stuff inside the US has bearing on precedent in other countries?

Speaking of which... meanwhile in Australia

 

Apple vs Epic - Australian Version started today. (which is just a re-release of the American case under slightly different laws)

https://www.smh.com.au/technology/apple-google-and-fortnite-maker-epic-are-heading-to-court-why-20240312-p5fbsd.html

 

Quote

Epic also filed lawsuits in Australia in November 2020. The company says it picked Australia because of its favourable antitrust laws. All sides agree that the Australian case is extremely similar to what has played out in the US, and the trial here is dealing with the same issues.