Madison reveals experiences working at LMG

[justin one]

3 minutes ago, DarithINAbby said:

ya sorry, she is trying to play the woman card, like somehow her being a woman would sway opinions, this isn't 1920 anymore, do women still get the shaft with alot of things in society today, of course, but her believing she wouldn't be taken seriously because she is one is BS, she is playing that up 

you are living proof she is 100% correct

[Abereau]

7 minutes ago, Middcore said:

 

Trying to turn things into a "Team GN" vs "Team LTT" pissing match was ridiculous after the GN vid, but trying to maintain this framing as if Madison's allegations have anything to do with the GN vids really exposes how intellectually and morally bankrupt it is. 

Okay okay... I am no Teamthis or Teamthat. I literally created my account here because I did not liked what I was seing with this other user I initially quoted. 

 

Here is what urged me to come here: 

 

If you check his profil you can see he just joined and therefore its weird. But I digress a lot at this moment. None of my comments where about Madison or Gamers Nexus. You can agree with someone without being pro or anti whatever. I've made the mistake of targeting that user here. Its my last comment about that. I shouldn't have wrote it because its irrelevant. That's it.

[JoostinOnline]

I didn't think anything could make me feel worse about this situation, but the way hardcore fans are treating Madison actually did it. It's sickening.

[Grendelw]

6 minutes ago, coopa said:

Per Terren Tong, they're going to pay an external third party investigator to conduct a review of the allegations and the workplace. It's an absolutely responsible and proper thing to do given the seriousness of the allegations and the need to make sure the end report is accurate from someone with no financial interest in LMG.

Yes, I'm aware. How often do these "outside investigators" actually side against the people they're hiring though? This is usually accountability theater.

[Agall]

4 minutes ago, DakotaCx said:

It's quite a spectrum. Some play the card to get out of work or hard situations, some struggle with depression/anxiety/etc, some have more serious DSM-5 diagnoses for sure, and you'd never pick up on it unless you're around it often - even then maybe not.

The challenge here is the pairing with the other claims that make it taboo to question that aspect. Hopefully time will tell one way or another. 

Regarding how people will react, I'd say a substantial amount, if not a majority of people will reach a conclusion earlier than they should and usually based on political lines or past experiences.

[Zodiark1593]

8 minutes ago, coopa said:

Not a lawyer in either the US or Canada, but my understanding is that Canadian defamation law is generally easier to win a case, because of a couple factors:

1. Public figures need to prove actual malice when suing over defamation in the US (to say, that the defendant knew it was a lie and lied with the intent of harming the plaintiff). This is not a requirement in Canada (except for Quebec, which has laws much more similar to the US than the rest of Canada).
2. In the US in a defamation case the burden of proof is on the plaintiff until proven guilty, whereas in Canada the defendant is prima facie liable until proven innocent.

Now whether or not LMG could hire a bunch of lawyers and win a defamation case against a former employee is one thing. The duration of that and the public optics in the interim. An former employee publicly airs that they were abused in the work place and inappropriately grabbed (groping/sexual assault) and you sue this person on the grounds of "you have no proof?" without investigating it first? Your sponsors aren't going to want to work with you, you'll taint your brand, all as the court case can drag out for months or years (courts move glacially slow. While everyone has a right to a speedy trial in many jurisdictions, both sides will usually continue the case for long durations to come up with the best legal arguments.)

 

My two cents:

1. If Madison has expressed that she is likely to, or intends to sue LMG - then standard operating practice for companies (US or Canadian) is to say "we don't publicly comment on pending litigation." - this would not suggest anything untoward on LMG's part in itself, and we would have to see what was filed in court and LMG's responses to them in the court filings.
2. If Madison does not intend to sue, or hasn't expressed an intent, I would expect (at least, hope to) that LTT gives a more limited response. They're not going to throw out everything at once, but I expect that they would say they're going to investigate it and take the matter seriously. Names are not likely to be dropped freely at this point or a great number of details shared.

Disclaimer: As I said above, I am not a lawyer knowledgeable of the specifics of employment law in British Columbia as a province or Canada as a whole. There may be additional protections or specific law that applies to claims of workplace harassment that makes the general legal practice of defamation cases in Canada altered or moot.

From this tidbit I found on Canadian defamation law, there appears to be fewer protections on part of the defendant than in the US, and the burden seems to be on the defendant to prove that her statements were not defamatory. 
 

http://cactuslaw.ca/service/defamation-laws-in-canada/

 

If Linus was at the helm, I’d expect he’d want to do away with the problem as quickly as possible. He wouldn’t care to fight a long, drawn out battle. And if he was still CEO, I tend to agree that he probably shouldn’t press further. 
 

Terran on the other hand, despite a relatively cool exterior, I feel would go right for the throat, if the opportunity presented itself, so as to prevent a future recurrence. I don’t anticipate this to go to court, but the immense pressure applied could gain a favorable settlement, that probably forbids further allegations. 

[Taf the Ghost]

18 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

I've actually done something similar, when I knew things were getting muddy at a workplace.

 

I started internally documenting conversations in forms of a rough overview of what occurred that was too sketchy for my liking but was instructed to do (usually sending from work email as well; so there would be timestamps).  I would on occasion, if I thought I could get away with it, after a "verbal" meeting I would do the work as mention things like "as requested from this" here is the data.

You acted like an adult that saw something was amiss.  That's the issue and why this is a massive mess with little in the way of good outcomes.

 

I've also realized over the last couple of years that "Grow the F*** Up" is a really good insult because that's really where a lot of problems arise. It's about taking responsibility for what you can control and acting accordingly.  One of the massive holes Madison has dug herself into is confirming she was the Glassdoor poster and she had read the LMG response to the Glassdoor post. She said this made he angry. The LMG response specifically mentioned the reality of Government Legal Recourse. The company is in BC. She wouldn't need a lawyer to sue. There's a government agency to handle most of this stuff if it wasn't addressed internally. She's apparently competent enough to give an explanation of the work environment issues, but not to either call or email an authority that could actually redress her grievances. Still. Over a year later.

 

Having had a chance to think over the entirety of her thread, there's an even worse read, for her, that's pretty clear. This is why you don't Late Night Twitter Thread, especially emotion dumping bad experiences.

[Middcore]

Just now, Grendelw said:

Yes, I'm aware. How often do these "outside investigators" actually side against the people they're hiring though? 

Sometimes. One notable case I can think of is when Penn State hired former FBI director Louis Freeh to investigate the allegations of sexual abuse by one of their assistant football coaches, and whether the head football coach and other university officials had knowledge of what was going on. Freeh's report came down pretty had on them.

[DakotaCx]

7 minutes ago, IronArm said:

 

There are things that go beyond just making the social media outreach. I am sure that particular things couldn't be said and that trying to remain relevant while not making any of the sponsors upset also impacted the workload. Plus the creative pressure for just one person. Think about how many jokes you know. Now you have to tell 5 new jokes a day, evey day. How long would you last before you are starting to scramble for ideas on new jokes - oh and the jokes have to be vetted by other people and fit within a set ruleset. That is more pressure than most people think. 

 

A single person making two videos a week is fairly manageable for a single person? What are you basing that on? Social Media role doesn't equate to being a writer - that is why LMG has writers AND social media managers now. Those are different skill sets. Would you get a plumber to fix an electrical issue you are having at your house - since they both work in home-repair? I'm curious what kind of work you do because I could possibly have a better analogy for you.

 

She may have been bad and over-exaggerating the pressures of her workload - almost everyone does. People still working for X company and those no longer. In most cases, former employees don't have good things to say about their previously employers. 

 

But you are saying is  "Oh this girl is mad at her former employer, so we don't really need to take her sexual harassment statements as seriously" <- You do get how messed up that sounds. Like if you or someone you care about talked about their boss and also that they were sexually harassed would you have a similar opinion? Regardless of "how bad" the sexual harassment was, it was still sexual harassment in the workplace - WHICH ISN'T OKAY AT ANY LEVEL.

 

Yes, the people that want to completely cancel LTT aren't approaching the situation logically either - but don't let that side of the argument take away from the valid criticism and the potential harm that was done to a young female while she was working there. Sympothy doesn't cost you anything. 

. 

Working a 5 day work week it seems like it was only a requirement for 2 videos that could be crossposted on three channels, plus one more post for whatever social platform I'm forgetting. So what? 3 shortform content pieces, and 2 vlog videos? That seems pretty reasonable compared to the rest of the organization and their schedules. I also don't know that the jokes were a prereq? Social media is more than just meme posting no? 

I took that FP stuff as more intended to be like the CorridorCrew videos. Not really written, or scripted.. well at least when they first started up

I can understand the frustration with working from home on off-time, I would not be happy about that either and refuse to do that without pay. 

I definitely can see her age and experience level playing a huge role here as well given what she was walking into with no previous experience 

But again, it's all speculation at this point, including her stance. She deserves to be heard, even empathized with - however believed at face value this moment? I am unsure. It deserves investigation or more information or whatever route it goes, but as it stands now I think its fair to ask questions. 
 

[coopa]

4 minutes ago, Grendelw said:

Yes, I'm aware. How often do these "outside investigators" actually side against the people they're hiring though? This is usually accountability theater.

Quite often, actually. Their job is to make sure the company is healthy and does not have skeletons in a closet. If every report that comes out of a third party auditor finds nothing, they would lose credibility and have no business.

Interestingly, an employer in Ontario did just this to investigate allegations of workplace harassment and sexual harassment by a doctor against two superiors. When the third party auditor released their report, the doctor sued the third party investigator for defamation. Of course, he lost...

The third party is paid regardless of the results of the report, and has no financial interest in the firm they're doing a report on. This is not the type of business that you want to be going to every day, week month, or years. Ideally only once ever, if you're that lucky, because if you're going for a third party report, it's generally because there are such serious accusations (and/or so many) that the government, your employees, and/or the public (your vendors, sponsors, customers, viewers, etc.) would not have faith in your company to do it properly internally.

[William Isted]

15 minutes ago, Clasmir said:

That is indeed to bad. 

 

I guess where I was coming from is that, if I had a strong case and I felt that I could win, then I would approach it from I will win or settle out of court. Losing wouldn't be an option. Now... I can say that, and as someone else mentioned, words are easy. 

 

Anyhow, perhaps you haven't found the right lawyer?  Try legaleagle (the YouTube channel that says they will take and examine your case for free)

I'm in the UK so there's a smaller bunch of people to choose from unfortunately. But it's hopefully progressing to a third-party ombudsman to be reviewed. I don't think they have any legal ability to demand a company do anything but if they side with me that would be worth the potential of going to court citing their finding.

 

LegalEagle is awesome though!

[IronArm]

1 minute ago, Clasmir said:

There 'should' be support paths. Get well, seek guidance, determine whether there is a real problem as part of that guidance (professional that is). If there IS a problem, then seek the legal path so that hopefully the environment that fostered it has to change AND you get some recompense for your trauma.  

 

Using twitter as your therapy should be the last thing anyone does.

 

But in general, I hear you and I understand.

There definitely should be, but I would imagine it is difficult to get well when you are being bombarded with hateful messages and responses doubting everything that happened to you. If a soldier was returning with PTSD because s/he was the sole survivor of his/her unit and blamed themselves for member's death - we would of course say that they needed to get help. Now imagine if that soldier was constantly being bombarded with messages about how it was their fault the unit was killed. That individual would probably have a hard time reaching out to get help or walk on a path that would help them. 

 

The issue isn't past for her, she is still getting impacted by it because of terrible people (not LTT but instead the worst side of this community). 

 

She has likely been trying to get help but she wasn't using "Twitter as her therapy" and even if she was - why is it up to someone not in the situation or have a professional therapy background deciding what should be the last thing someone does? It reaches a large audience immediately and she can express it and then not have to keep addressing the issue over and over (or at least hope not to). 

 

People deal with trauma differently and yes, not always in a healthy manor. But we don't have an inside view of the things she is going through - both mentally and physically. 

 

If she wanted to Tweet about it, she should be able to. I don't see the harm in her doing that. Who are we to judge where she is at in her path to deal with trauma? Being sympothetic doesn't cost us anything. 

[coopa]

4 minutes ago, Zodiark1593 said:

From this tidbit I found on Canadian defamation law, there appears to be fewer protections on part of the defendant than in the US, and the burden seems to be on the defendant to prove that her statements were not defamatory. 
 

http://cactuslaw.ca/service/defamation-laws-in-canada/

 

If Linus was at the helm, I’d expect he’d want to do away with the problem as quickly as possible. He wouldn’t care to fight a long, drawn out battle. And if he was still CEO, I tend to agree that he probably shouldn’t press further. 
 

Terran on the other hand, despite a relatively cool exterior, I feel would go right for the throat, if the opportunity presented itself, so as to prevent a future recurrence. I don’t anticipate this to go to court, but the immense pressure applied could gain a favorable settlement, that probably forbids further allegations. 

Terren is hiring a third party investigator to investigate the allegations impartially per his response to the Verge, so taking any action against Madison would be premature until LMG can say what they know is true, not true, or unverifiable.

If even some of the allegations are true - and there are none that can be proven 100% false without a doubt with incontrovertible evidence - I doubt Madison would be sued for defamation, period.

[DakotaCx]

1 minute ago, William Isted said:

I'm in the UK so there's a smaller bunch of people to choose from unfortunately. But it's hopefully progressing to a third-party ombudsman to be reviewed. I don't think they have any legal ability to demand a company do anything but if they side with me that would be worth the potential of going to court citing their finding.

 

LegalEagle is awesome though!

I would be interested to hear LegalEagle's take on this. 

[jitteryzeitgeist]

3 minutes ago, DakotaCx said:

. 

Working a 5 day work week it seems like it was only a requirement for 2 videos that could be crossposted on three channels, plus one more post for whatever social platform I'm forgetting. So what? 3 shortform content pieces, and 2 vlog videos? That seems pretty reasonable compared to the rest of the organization and their schedules. I also don't know that the jokes were a prereq? Social media is more than just meme posting no? 

I took that FP stuff as more intended to be like the CorridorCrew videos. Not really written, or scripted.. well at least when they first started up

I can understand the frustration with working from home on off-time, I would not be happy about that either and refuse to do that without pay. 

I definitely can see her age and experience level playing a huge role here as well given what she was walking into with no previous experience 

But again, it's all speculation at this point, including her stance. She deserves to be heard, even empathized with - however believed at face value this moment? I am unsure. It deserves investigation or more information or whatever route it goes, but as it stands now I think its fair to ask questions. 
 

She's not the only one who considers the pace at LTT to be untenable.  Everyone in every video, even Linus, says their own business practice doesn't align with their mission statement.

 

I take her statements at face value because they're echoed by every single other employee.

[Abriged Shield Hero]

12 hours ago, Spotty said:

I'm discussing with the mod team what we want to do with it. For now carry on discussing here.

Do the right and have EVERY manager apologize to Madison publicly including Linus for every single lie and threat he personally said and especially for ignoring it.
I regret not buying the the solid copper cooler I would have sent it to GN to do some real justice and actually do a real review.

This is horrible for everyone because GN has to take massive risks to do the right thing but they know they will get black listed by LTT
Anyone that supports Madison or GN has to watch their backs and be careful with the community
Madison is scared because LMG has millions it can spend for legal fees to sue them into the ground

It's questionable at this point why Emily doesn't appear in videos have they been barred too?
What kind of bullshit does Emily have to deal with daily? Is Linus just going to tell her to calm her tits too?

I've been a fan of LTT for a very long time I remember watching 7 gamer 1 CPU after a math exam and wanting to create a budget version of that project so I could play video games with my friends. I bought myself a LTT swacket because I thought I made me look cool back then but now what LMG has become makes me sick now.

Linus if your reading this what the actual fuck for thinking you failed your employees if they ever try to start a union they clearly fucking need one after all this bullshit you put them through

[BustinJustin]

8 minutes ago, Middcore said:

 

You need look no further than many replies in this thread to see that the culture of dismissing women's credibility is alive and well in tech and tech enthusiast spaces. 

Discrediting someone who is a woman isn't the same as discreting someone because they are a woman. 

 

I'm tired of this culture of any time someone comes and "exposes" or accuses someone or a company of something, it's all 100% true and framed correctly and without bias, the only correct response is and admission and grand mea culpa, and you're not allowed to defend yourself. 

[Middcore]

Just now, Apologize_to_madison said:

Do the right and have EVERY manager apologize to Madison publicly including Linus for every single lie and threat he personally said and especially for ignoring it.
 

 

You're just talking to an unpaid forum moderator, my guy, he doesn't have the power to make Linus or anyone else at LTT do anything. 

[DakotaCx]

1 minute ago, jitteryzeitgeist said:

She's not the only one who considers the pace at LTT to be untenable.  Everyone in every video, even Linus, says their own business practice doesn't align with their mission statement.

 

I take her statements at face value because they're echoed by every single other employee.

Referring to the production schedule? 

I see no reason not to believe that, but I don't see that playing into the SA scandal. 

[Middcore]

1 minute ago, BustinJustin said:

Discrediting someone who is a woman isn't the same as discreting someone because they are a woman. 

 

I agree.

 

But lots of people in this thread have done the latter. 

[DarkSwordsman]

So I don't want to make any assumptions from this. However, it is at least clear that Madison is aware of legal recourse.

 

So here's to hoping something comes out of it?

 

[DarithINAbby]

19 minutes ago, coopa said:

My lord, Linus needs to get out of his own way. His reply is not as bad as the one on Gamers Nexus, to be abundantly clear.

Most of his reply is actually measured and professional, but the problem to me is that he's clearly not on the same page as Terren Tong (CEO). Linus' third paragraph says that the HR team would be conducting a review (which, given that his wife, who owns 50% of the company, is the CFO and apparently the head of HR, would be impossible to be totally impartial).

Terren in a separate email says what needed to be said: 

While Terren's email does supplement what Linus said, it is a massively important distinction (because it means someone with no stake in the results of the report will review the allegations and give an impartial opinion on what is or is not true) and it indicates that Linus gave a reply that was either not fully vetted by everyone or not vetted at all. For god's sake man, you NEED to run everything through a proper PR process for issues this serious. All of this should have been in one cohesive statement given at once. And apparently LMG doesn't have a press email? (Dextero used the contact form on their website because it didn't list a press contact email...) A lot of this pain and disjointed replies could be avoided if they had a central inbox for press inquiries.

I will say on a positive note no matter your opinion on the veracity of the claims, hiring a third party impartial investigator is absolutely the most responsible thing you could do, so props to LMG on that. And the limited nature of the response from LTT is understandable given the circumstances and pending investigation.

 

OR, and this might just be crazy, they thought of the outside investigation after the fact, and what does impartiality have to do with an HR review of the matter? it isn't a legal (like during a trial) action, it would just be them "trying" to get to the bottom of what happened

[William Isted]

17 minutes ago, Reclus said:

It isn't meant to be simple. It is meant to be serious. 

Your own words describing this issue: this kind of bullshit workplace bullying 

I really have nothing to add. 

Good luck to you.

Not a clue dude. Not a clue what you're articulating.

[Razercake]

14 minutes ago, coopa said:

Linus' third paragraph says that the HR team would be conducting a review (which, given that his wife, who owns 50% of the company, is the CFO and apparently the head of HR, would be impossible to be totally impartial).

 

I vaguely remember a good while back Linus talked about them having a proper HR department now, or something along those lines. so I don't think she is the head of HR anymore, which would be good. However I could be misremembering.

[Abriged Shield Hero]

Just now, Middcore said:

 

You're just talking to an unpaid forum moderator, my guy, he doesn't have the power to make Linus or anyone else at LTT do anything. 

I know but I can at least help add another page of comments to this topic maybe if it keeps growing linus will finally address it