Gamers Nexus alleges LMG has insufficient ethics and integrity

[Cosmic Emotion]

8 minutes ago, Ironman420 said:

 “You chose the way of the hero. And they found you amusing for a while, the people of this city. But the one thing they love more than a hero is to see a hero fail, fall, and die trying. In spite of everything you've done for them, eventually, they will hate you.” 

 

Noone questions the things Linus has done over the years but, you have to admit, this is a VERY bitter situation. I understand that Linus is going through a rough time right now and that's for the best. If Spiderman was a thief and a liar, (and unfortunately this is exactly what has happened here whether by accident or intentionally) ,you have to admit, the line wouldn't hold any water. I put the nouns in bold italics so everyone realizes how serious this is. You might not understand it, but you are directly affected by this.

 

Please, people, if YOU don't hold Linus accountable he's heading for a very bad future and noone here wants that.

[fohatadri]

6 minutes ago, Calzz said:

Yes it will affect them negatively and thats the point, everyone should be held accountable to there mistakes and nobody is above that it would be the same if LTT had done a video about steve if the situation was the other way around.

 

You are right a sorry doesnt fix anything however its what you do when you are in the wrong or made a mistake however big or small it is. The bigger point is that you dont have to just say sorry you can work on fixing what the issue was, such as putting things in place so those issues dont happen again or if they are in place look at them again as clearly they arent working. Sorry is the first step but whats important is what your doing to make sure it doesnt happen again and trying to make right what is wrong.

 

Steve didnt make the video out of bad intent and its clear to see from watching so im not really sure what you are getting at when you say he is trying to hurt the people that work at LMG as they have nothing to do with it.

Well, I think it was purely personal for Steve to attack LMG, or specifically to attack Linus. I don't think I will change this opinion.
From my personal experience, saying "sorry" to anything and everything always is never enough for people. This is specifically why cancel culture is so dangerous. Instead of letting the natural flow let it fix everything, Steve "canceled" LMG instead of trying to work with them or at least express his concerns to him privately, then if a response from LMG is extremely poor, ignoring the problems and etc. - release a video similar to what he did now. But he did not contact LMG, did he?
Everyone with at least one brain cell in their head knows that Steve did this for clout.

Also, it is so in human nature to fight back when someone attacks you. CEO or not. 

[Nachmanowicz]

1 minute ago, Reavantos said:

While GN tried to raise some concerns. he did it in a way that just ended up being an arrgoant hit peace and shot down any and all validity while not maintaining journlistic integrity.

as i said in their discord. Steve has a way of acting like his shit doesnt stink. 

also " we wont montize this video" with his merch very prodeminemently displayed and the paid youtube comments showing up to 50$ USD.. k my guy. 

 

Dude who gives a damn? This is a discussion about LMG, not about Steve or GN. And he has raised a lot of very legitimate concerns.

[bz16_]

1 minute ago, Touch My Hamm said:

The amount of people creating accounts or burner accounts to not folly their mains to say "here is my opinion" to then add nothing of value is crazy. I stick by what I said before. People on both sides appear to be misinterpreting what is meant by each others wording and meanings.

I'm assuming LMG is drafting their proper statement right now... I think they have a chance at, if not redemption per se, at least calming down the quarrel and acknowledging the mistakes and failures. That should help a bit with the present situation? Calming down a crowd when you have done a major cock up isn't easy, and we've seen many people and companies tried and failed, or even just swept the issue under the rug and pretend it's fine. I'd say most of us do need some time to cool down a bit too.

[m9x3mos]

1 minute ago, IrishDiem said:

Yes it was but I read it and I agree with pretty much all of it. Tech Jesus turning into Tech Judas grossly undermines the point he was trying to make. 

So he is Judas for pointing out issues that Linus has with his production workflow and questionable ethics decisions?

Not like a member of Linus' team also didn't also try to say they were doing more or better testing that Gamers Nexus.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Hezkezl said:

Tell us you didn't watch this new video without telling us that you didn't watch the video.

No I did not. I'm not supporting Steve's witch hunt. The first one was enough.

[WillHeard]

1 minute ago, Reavantos said:

While GN tried to raise some concerns. he did it in a way that just ended up being an arrgoant hit peace and shot down any and all validity while not maintaining journlistic integrity.

as i said in their discord. Steve has a way of acting like his shit doesnt stink. 

also " we wont montize this video" with his merch very prodeminemently displayed and the paid youtube comments showing up to 50$ USD.. k my guy. 

 

The fact that you care more about who made it and not what they made should bother you

[jooroth18]

6 minutes ago, WillHeard said:

There’s coming back from this for LMG. what does it look like

• real apology from linus. maybe a short break from the company , for his sake
• Pause the content creation. Give yourself a week to evaluate processes and figure out how to do better. Expensive? yep. Worth rebuilding trust and faith? yep
• Come up with a robust way to respond to emergencies. You made this way, way worse with your responses on here Linus.

This is totally possible. But it won’t be overnight and you need to commit, publicly and internally.

Linus for sure needs a break. I dont think they need to pause content creation, just slow it down while they work on revamping the video making process. All the while linus gets to spend some time with family and let the team handle it. The team is talented and resourceful, they can fix this without linus needing to help. And linus really needs the break.

[m9x3mos]

Just now, bz16_ said:

I'm assuming LMG is drafting their proper statement right now... I think they have a chance at, if not redemption per se, at least calming down the quarrel and acknowledging the mistakes and failures. That should help a bit with the present situation? Calming down a crowd when you have done a major cock up isn't easy, and we've seen many people and companies tried and failed, or even just swept the issue under the rug and pretend it's fine. I'd say most of us do need some time to cool down a bit too.

They should have done that before Linus made his post here.

I agree that his response to this thread was poor and didn't take ownership of the issues that were raised.

[VisibleXela]

1 minute ago, dynastes said:

Which, of course, does not constitute lying in any form, does it?  I' assume that you're not serious, because that would be ridiculous.

I'm absolutely being glib, yes. It does, however, seem strange to me that people are acting like there are two competing timelines. There's just the one GN and Billet put forward. There's also Linus, who's being cagey and ambiguous about the timeline but saying nothing to confirm it, deny it, or propose an alternate sequence of events.

 

I'm splitting hairs, I know, but the reality is there isn't a debate over how things went down. Even Linus's own response doesn't say "that's not how this happened."

[Reavantos]

Nevermind.. 

[Ry3w]

Trust me bro at least it's entertaining 

[Godiwa]

3 minutes ago, harls said:

Linus never set a timeline saying when it was agreed to or even if LMG and Billet agreed or just LMG agreed they would need to pay.  

he didn't no... but he claimed it... before he made a deal with Billet... so yeah... that kinda explains itself (hint: he lied)

[LostInferno]

1 hour ago, ImpliedSilence said:

Uhhhhh go back to those points and watch gamer's nexus's newest video....Linus straight up LIED about compensating Billet, he didn't even try to contact them about payment for the prototype they auctioned/sold off until after the first GN video went live. He lied to you/me and everyone else about it. Everything else he said in that post can be taken in the same light as far as I am concerned.

I just watched GN's latest video. You're right. It is worst than I thought.

1 hour ago, RockerBug17 said:

The gesture behind the statement is important, not the form it comes in.

The gesture isn't clear in the current written form. I hope to get more clarity in a prepared video response. 

[Magnus33]

Couple of things i noticed here.

 

First off Linus is not lying and Steve did not make a hit piece.

 

Have mistakes been made at Ltt yes and Linus himself admits this.

 

Steve didn't make the video with anything that wasn't public knowledge already and he did so in a way that pointed out failing at Ltt that have been happening for to long.

Were it goers off the rails is with Linus response which is frankly badly thought through and half assed at best.

 

Gn/Steve did what they should have done and clearly needed to be done.

Given this was already all public and made worse but the employees comments there was no dealing with behind closed doors and private channels which should have been very obvious to Linus.

Then there was the kind of taking responsibility and kind of not along with no real apologies we seen for other companies of late.

 

This should have been addressed head on in the public were it belonged were the damage had been done.

Yes Linus didn't mean harm for the company that made the cooler which he did try and explain but he didn't do it publicly where the video was and the damage had already been done.

 

When the mistakes are in the public videos for all to see you don't chat privately or post messages in forums you address them in video in the public.

It leaves a bad taste in peoples mouths and sends the wrong message to people watching the videos.

 

The intent wasn't to cause harm certainly but the execution certainly did to both you and them.   Lord knows other tech channels covering this are trying to point out to Linus and Ltt which hopefully is taken to heart.

 

Hell we all make mistakes and we at times say dumb things (should talk to my better half she tell you stories   lol). But we can also own up to them and fix them which is part of being human.

Hopefully  this is what happens and bridges get mended back to better then they were before.

 

Seriously though people there were no hit pieces and Linus wasn't lying so lets stop going there and turning this into something its not

[Thepyrodex]

19 minutes ago, jitteryzeitgeist said:

"We fucked up, and it wasn't anyone elses fault.  We constantly rush videos and our data is inaccurate.  It is our fault we auctioned the Monoblock."

 

Accountability, and future improvement.

 

People make purchasing decisions based on LTT videos, and most of them don't have the money and position Linus does to make a neverending series of LOOK HOW RICH I AM HERES MY HOUSE videos so they fellate their own egos publicly.  Most of them can afford one big component a year, and if their favorite Youtuber is putting out bullshit numbers then they're the ones who will end up wasting their money on the word of some half-assed charlatan.

 

Linus has and continues to ignore the problems with his channel and the merest notion that he handles shit badly.  Trust me bro.

If you don't like the content why did you watch it?  Your life will be better if you aren't TRYING to be angry and watch/do things you do like, Trust me bro lol

 

[WillHeard]

1 minute ago, Vilacom said:

Don't know why I'm typing this cause it'll just get lost in the hundred responses that will go up as soon as its posted but just wanted my thoughts out so here we go.

Is this a bad look for LTT, yes, is this also disingenuous for GN, 100%.

"We demonetized this video"  like demonetizing a video that as of right now has in excess of 10x the number of views as the vast majority of the other videos on his channel and more than 5x the views of their big AMD tour/documentary has anything to do with how much they benefit from it.  Sure they lose some youtube income but have massive gains from the sheer amount of attention the video gets, not to mention doing almost the entire presentation surrounded by the merch he sells.  To be clear, go ahead and make money off of it, you're going to dramatically benefit from something like this no matter what, but retending that demonetizing the video makes this somehow no benefit to him would have immediately made me skeptical of his messaging and presentation if that already wasn't how I was feeling because this is a person doing a "review"(really a takedown video but w/e) of their direct competitor in the space.  No it doesn't matter how chummy they've been in the past, if Steve has done excellent reporting work on things like artesian builds or newegg(a company that was literally stealing from large numbers of customers that Steven then gave his platform to for the opportunity explain things, something elected not to do in this piece) This is him attacking a direct competitor, so I will treat it with the exact same skepticism as I would treat Intel releasing a 45 minute video talking about how AMD or Apple is using deceptive marketing when it comes to their new products.  Spending nearly what, 20 minutes pointing out every error they could find in every video?  Jesus really?  Come's across as super petty since again, you're attacking your direct competitor.    

He should have reached out for comment, is he obligated to?  Nope sure isn't, and could it give LTT time to respond or do something that makes the video less valid?  Maybe, but what is his goal, is the goal for things to get better in the space or is his goal to get publicity for a hit piece on a large competitor?  Isn't his stated goal to make the video become invalid?  Giving the person you are reporting on the chance to add input is what makes people actually take you seriously, and its what could have made this Billet situation actually more clear and not the shitshow its become.  Why would it have hurt the video to include statements from both Billet and LTT over the situation, could it have done anything other than help Billet?  What's the downside?  What's the goal of the video?

The billet thing is an issue with regards to the prototype being auctioned specifically.  It's hard to believe LTT was acting with actual malice but still very unacceptable that so many balls could be dropped that an item that the company was asked to be returned made its way to an auction table.  That aside, this idea that they should have redone the testing and made sure that all the results were perfect misses the entire point of the conclusion.  The conclusion was $800 water blocks are not worth it no matter what.  Ek blocks are considered overpriced at $400, you can get alphacool which seem to be considered top of the line for $200, and lets not forget that basically all watercooling is just not worth the cost if you at all care about cost to performance so redoing tests on a product that the only reason you should ever consider is if money is absolutely no factor in your purchasing decision and you just want a massive piece of copper to look cool in your PC.  It's like a Rolex or an Hermes handbag, there is no world where those purchases ever make sense financially, the only reason to spend the money is so you can feel good about spending the money for whatever reason.  Reviewing or even testing an $800 water block is always going end on "Don't buy an $800 water block for any reason unless you already have literally the best computer money can buy and you think it would look cooler with an all copper water block".  Copper isn't magical, Billet has not found some new way to manipulate the laws of thermodynamics, every major manufacturer of watercooling parts knows about copper's thermal properties and still doesn't use it like this.  It's not a serious product and pretending that would change in some massive way because the performance might have been better on a different graphics card is just crazy, go buy a high quality air cooler and then buy a steamdeck with the $720 you just saved, you'll be much better off.

Finally, did he honestly complain about youtube comments being shitty?  Has he never read his own comments section?  Or literally any comments section anywhere ever in the history of the internet existing and before then the opinion/editorial section of any newspaper?  Oh my god, its hard to cut through bad data as a reviewer?  How awful! That's an entirely new issue that only exists because LTT made mistakes in videos!  GN is the only ones that have to deal with bad faith viewers making crappy comments on videos!  Like it takes about 5 second looking in the comments of that video complaining about shitty communities to find GN faithful making all kinds of bad faith arguments and bad takes about LTT. 

So to sum up, does LTT have issues with accuracy, yes, though in general I'd say it has not dramatically effected their conclusions in any situation I've looked at.  Like yeah, that 4090 graph was incorrect, but would have correcting it made a significant difference in what the conclusion about the 4090's value?  Not really.  Is the Billet issue bad, yes and they need to correct it, but as above, it doesn't change the fact that any company banking on an $800 waterblock as their primary product wont be a company for very long, and if his goal was to actually get a really accurate picture of what's going on between the companies with the situation then reaching out for comment from both places and putting those responses in the video would have been a better use of time than spending so much listing data errors that probably didn't dramatically change anyone's experience with a product.  But ultimately pretending this video isnt a massive windfall for them and whining about people in the community just is a huge hit to any other message he's trying to push.  LTT will hopefully improve with regards to errors and data, and I hope there is an actual resolution between them and Billet, but GN really showed some bad colors in this as well.   Here's an idea, everyone listen to Linus and dont ever only watch one review of a product before making a purchasing decision.  There we go, problem solved.   

 

It’s really hard to take you seriously when you’ve written a wall of text that ignores what is by far the most important question: was what was said accurate and true? It doesn’t matter who said it or why. 

[Agall]

2 minutes ago, snkiz said:

No I did not. I'm not supporting Steve's witch hunt. The first one was enough.

There'd be nothing to report if LTT hadn't made the obvious mistakes in the first place.

 

Don't shoot the messenger, especially given the fact that GN is a competitor in the space of youtube tech reviews. There's going to be a colored approach to anything like GN's videos because of it.

[SomeSin]

2 minutes ago, snkiz said:

No I did not. I'm not supporting Steve's witch hunt. The first one was enough.

Ah. Not replying to you then, thanks for contributing tho.

[noodleclaus]

Linus, many small scrappy companies with exponential growths hit this moment.  There's a book about how to navigate it: The Founder's Mentality: How to Overcome the Predictable Crises of Growth by Chris Zook and James Allen.   

[swimtome]

38 minutes ago, coopa said:

Whether or not LTT directly profited on it, the fact that it was a charity auction is a distinction with little difference.

 

1. They still sold something that wasn't theirs to sell, after agreeing more than once to send it back to Billet, that was a prototype and harmed Billet's prospects of developing the product further. If you let me borrow your car (I agreed to bring your car back) and I said "whoops I sold it, but I donated the money to the American Red Cross", the situation wouldn't be any less horrible for you.
2. Corporations benefit from charity auctions as they are allowed to write off the value of the item auctioned off from their taxes.

And if Linus is not a PR guy and doesn't articulate himself - stop making public statements without filtering them through your PR department. Linus can't be said to represent the brand when he's making positive statements and hand wave away bad/misleading statements as "tee-hee Linus is not a PR guy."

 

Linus' continued reaction to this entire situation is just digging the hole deeper and deeper. It creates serious credibility issues when Linus implies that Billet had agreed to compensation before Steve published the video when the reality was that LMG didn't respond to Billet until after the video was made public and Billet had not agreed to LMG's compensation offer as of the time of his post.

If Linus is going to make bad PR statements on behalf of his $100M company, as the face of the company, with his first name in the company name - then his company is going to be judged on the content of those statements. That's it. And trust is easy to lose, but very hard to rebuild.

1. But on the being accused side, I would find a huge difference between "Hey you sold my car and kept the cash" vs "Hey why did you mix my car in with your charity event".  One implies quite a bit more malice then other.
2. Yes I'm sure there's some level of tax deduction, and I'm sure it's pennies back for LMG that the wouldn't even be thinking twice about.  Like the backpack, do you really think he planned to steal water block just to get a few bucks tax deduction and hope no one would notice?!
3. PR:  Yes, and an unfortunate truth is that the lack thereof is what makes LTT kind of endearing to long time viewers.  WAN is a weekly genuine behind the scenes, for better or for worse.  It does add transparency."mplies that Billet
4. "Implies that Billet" I personally didn't agree with Steve on that, I did not read Linus's reply as that at all.  I interpreted that as Linus reached out and came to a number already.

But overall yes constant mistakes loses trust and we can all agree it's bad.

 

11 minutes ago, Texbobcat said:

Brother he just trippled down made snarky remarks about the company then gas light his community, him saying he sold it to charity and not for profit isn't why people are angry it's his shitty response showing that he doesn't care.

 

And this is a perfect example of pitchforker.  I don't say anywhere that's the only reason people are angry.  My point is as a human I can understand why he jumped on this specific point even though its irrelevant to the bigger picture. 

 

[ItsJohnny]

Linus, I really like you and I undertand that LMG is your baby, but it is also a real company. Please let the CEO handle this, like you should have let him yesterday.

[dynastes]

2 minutes ago, IrishDiem said:

Yes it was but I read it and I agree with pretty much all of it. Tech Jesus turning into Tech Judas grossly undermines the point he was trying to make. 

That implies that you assume ill intent, which is an entirely subjective take and not really substantiated by anything. GN's tone has always been rough when it comes to criticism. There is no reason to be overly diplomatic or friendly in cases like this though. The fact that @LinusTech obviously cannot take this form of criticism does not change that whatsoever.

 

When I posted first here this morning, I might still have agreed in part. But after the billet timeline has been clarified and Linus has been shown blatantly lying to cover his ass up, that has changed substantially. In what world is someone who does stuff like that worthy of being handled with tender fingers?

[Jai_2501]

1 minute ago, SetOutMode said:

I feel like a little kid who’s parents are about to get divorced and can’t understand why mommy and daddy are fighting.

 

Steve absolutely should have reached out privately. However, that doesn’t change the fact that many of his points about the data are all valid.

 

Many of the points falls back to the pace of the upload cadence… everyone in both sides knows that the cadence should slow down… but it can’t slow down because that cadence is needed to keep the lights on… so then the other option is more people to support the upload cadence, which requires more money and thus more videos… it seems like kind of a spiral. Hopefully the new CEO can find some harmony between quantity and quality. 

 

I was all on board for TMB. A warranty is only as good as the company that stands behind them, just because the fine print doesn’t spell out everything exactly doesn’t mean it isn’t any good… just like having the warranty spelled out doesn’t mean that a company will honor it. 
 

I think Linus and Steve just need to sit down and have a beer and hash this shit all out away from the cameras. 

The thing that bugs me is Linus's foolhardy response. Everyone makes mistakes and that's understandable but you gotta accept where you're wrong. He showed a complete lack of public awareness and perhaps self awareness too. Idk how to feel about all of this. I love ltt and I want them to succeed but this isn't it. Also yea Steve should have talked to Linus personally. You don't release a scathing remark against someone unless you intent is malicious and that's that really. 

[m9x3mos]

Just now, jooroth18 said:

Linus for sure needs a break. I dont think they need to pause content creation, just slow it down while they work on revamping the video making process. All the while linus gets to spend some time with family and let the team handle it. The team is talented and resourceful, they can fix this without linus needing to help. And linus really needs the break.

Well isn't that why he hired a new CEO?

He needs to make it that persons responsibility to come up with how to frame a response and deliver it.

I think the was the perfect opportunity for them to step back and say "sorry, yeah we screwed up. Here is how we will fix it".

That is the same expectation we have for manufacturers that bung up.

But that wasn't what he did.