Gas Stove / Range gate? Discussed on WAN show

[baxbunny]

Linus has mentioned gas range or gas stove "gate" or scam in the last 2 or 3 wan shows. I was wondering what the context of that is? I'm assuming it has to do with the kitchen appliance. Does he not like gas cooking? Or he does buy but* there was something about them that was bad? Or good? Or something the internet didn't like? I am out of the loop. Can anyone explain it to me? Or have a link or time stamp for when he goes into it? 

Edit: Typo

[Needfuldoer]

There's growing evidence that burning natural gas (methane) indoors for cooking probably isn't a great idea, as far as indoor air quality goes. Some people blew this out of proportion, taking it as an affront and whipping each other into a frenzy over stories they made up about an imminent gas range ban and how they'll all be forced to replace theirs with an electric range.

[LAwLz]

I am not sure what Linus has said on the topic, but gas companies in the US have been paying influencers (and lawmakers) to talk about how great gas cooking is, even though evidence points to them being bad for the environment and people.

 

In 9/10 cases, induction is superior to gas stoves. How much worse gas stoves are compared to induction varies for specific use cases, where you live, and things like how good the ventilation in your kitchen is. One of the few reasons for cooking with gas is "my home already has it and replacing it would be expensive". But gas companies don't want you to stop using gas, so they are paying people to tell you that induction is bad and that gas is great. 

 

 

Sadly, the conversation has been infected with a lot of feelings (mainly pushed by the gas companies, but I've seen it from the other side too) so it often becomes hard to talk about facts.

My opinion is that gas cooking should be banned in new buildings. I understand why people don't want to rip out their perfectly fine gas stoves in their existing buildings, but there really are very few reasons why we should keep making more houses with gas stoves when the alternative is superior in a ton of ways.

 

Gas stoves are worse for the environment, worse for people, and worse for actually cooking (except for woks, then gas is far better).

[atxcyclist]

5 hours ago, LAwLz said:

I am not sure what Linus has said on the topic, but gas companies in the US have been paying influencers (and lawmakers) to talk about how great gas cooking is, even though evidence points to them being bad for the environment and people.

 

In 9/10 cases, induction is superior to gas stoves. How much worse gas stoves are compared to induction varies for specific use cases, where you live, and things like how good the ventilation in your kitchen is. One of the few reasons for cooking with gas is "my home already has it and replacing it would be expensive". But gas companies don't want you to stop using gas, so they are paying people to tell you that induction is bad and that gas is great. 

 

 

Sadly, the conversation has been infected with a lot of feelings (mainly pushed by the gas companies, but I've seen it from the other side too) so it often becomes hard to talk about facts.

My opinion is that gas cooking should be banned in new buildings. I understand why people don't want to rip out their perfectly fine gas stoves in their existing buildings, but there really are very few reasons why we should keep making more houses with gas stoves when the alternative is superior in a ton of ways.

 

Gas stoves are worse for the environment, worse for people, and worse for actually cooking (except for woks, then gas is far better).

No one would have to pay me, gas stoves are better for everything with the exception of just bringing a lot of water to boil, which is the only benefit an induction range has over gas. Gas ranges are easier to adjust, are more consistent to cook with because they keep a constant amount of heat and don't 'cycle', and you can essentially use every type of cookware on them. Glass induction ranges have lots of downsides, and if you have a vent over your stove (and you should use it while cooking), then the indoor issues with gas stoves are basically mitigated completely.

 

Gas stoves are also cheaper to operate many places, the high-wattage needed to operate an electric cooktop or oven gets costly if your electricity is expensive. 

 

Your notion that they are worse for cooking is disproven, by every professional chef in a commercial kitchen on the planet preferring gas ranges. In places without natural gas, chefs settle for induction or they buy a butane or propane burner, but natural gas stoves are the choice of professionals because they are significantly better for cooking.

[LAwLz]

11 hours ago, atxcyclist said:

gas stoves are better for everything with the exception of just bringing a lot of water to boil, which is the only benefit an induction range has over gas.

No they aren't, and induction stoves have many benefits. I'll get to that later in this post.

 

11 hours ago, atxcyclist said:

Gas ranges are easier to adjust

Ehm, what? Why do you even think they are easier to adjust? Induction stoves are just as reactive as gas ranges if that's what you are referring to. I am not even sure what you mean by this because it sounds like such a weird thing. How are they easier to adjust exactly?

 

11 hours ago, atxcyclist said:

are more consistent to cook with because they keep a constant amount of heat and don't 'cycle'

The cycles for induction stoves are generally very short. You have a point if you're talking about the highest setting, but please keep in mind that the highest setting on an induction stove is higher than a gas stove can usually reach. For those who don't know, a lot of induction stoves has a very high output level (on mine it's called "P" for "power"), which is beyond the typical range. This is meant for short intervals like bringing a big pot of water to a boil, and this mode can not be sustained for long periods of time.

 

If we are just talking about cooking at fairly normal temperatures then a good induction stove won't have noticeable cycles, and if they do we are talking about cycles of a few seconds at most. It's not something that actually matters for cooking. It's not like they fluctuate widely in temperature. The same thing happens with flames. A flame isn't a constant temperature either you know. The pressure in the pipe varies and fluctuates. But the variation is so small and gets absorbed by the pan so it doesn't affect cooking.

 

Even IF it was true (big IF) that induction stoves cycled a lot and therefore did not provide even heat output, good cookware (so like, 30+ dollar pans) generally has a decent thermal mass in the bottom which will smooth out potentially uneven inflows of heat. This might not be the case with the very thin 100% aluminum pans (emphasis on the 100% part) that don't work on induction, but those are terrible and shouldn't be used anyway, even on a gas stove.

 

11 hours ago, atxcyclist said:

and you can essentially use every type of cookware on them.

The same goes for induction stoves. The only exception is really cheap stuff made from a non-magnetic material, like a fully aluminum pan where the manufacturer didn't make the base out of steel, but those are generally really bad to begin with so it's not really an issue.

You can find pretty much any type of cookware made out of any material, and there will be models that work on induction. I am not sure if this is a big issue in the US which is very gas-focused, but in most of Europe it seems like induction is so widely used that pretty much everything made is made with induction in mind. 

I went to IKEA's website and the only pan I could find that can't be used on induction stoves is this ~6 dollar frying pan that is soon going to be discontinued. The ~7 dollar variant does however support induction stoves. I can't say I spent a lot of time looking for non-induction pans but I think at this point it really is scraping the bottom of the barrel. We're talking about a 1 dollar difference between induction-compatible and non-induction-compatible. Pretty much the only cookware that isn't induction compatible is stuff that is really cheap, and that can be replaced for next to no money. If you have some really nice cast iron or stainless steel cookware then you're in luck, because that will most likely work on induction.

 

11 hours ago, atxcyclist said:

Glass induction ranges have lots of downsides, and if you have a vent over your stove (and you should use it while cooking), then the indoor issues with gas stoves are basically mitigated completely.

No, it's not mitigated completely. 

 

11 hours ago, atxcyclist said:

Gas stoves are also cheaper to operate many places, the high-wattage needed to operate an electric cooktop or oven gets costly if your electricity is expensive. 

I think you are overestimating how much induction stoves use. I think you would have a valid point if talking about resistive heat, but not induction. They are very energy efficient. Plus, it's not like gas is free.

 

 

11 hours ago, atxcyclist said:

Your notion that they are worse for cooking is disproven, by every professional chef in a commercial kitchen on the planet preferring gas ranges. In places without natural gas, chefs settle for induction or they buy a butane or propane burner, but natural gas stoves are the choice of professionals because they are significantly better for cooking.

Yes, that is what the marketing team from gas companies want you to believe.

In reality, what you are saying is absolute bogus.

1) Chefs do not prefer gas stoves. In fact, they much prefer induction because it means their kitchens aren't like saunas when working.

2) I can not find any evidence that chefs prefer gas ranges. In fact, when I google "do chefs prefer gas or induction" 8 out of the 10 top results all say chefs are more and more moving towards induction. One was a quora link where the answers were split, and the only outlier is, you guessed it, this link (that is dead right now) which is from a gas company. 

 

 

 

Here is my (in my opinion unbiased) breakdown of gas vs induction:

 

 

Benefits of gas stoves:

• They work better with woks than induction stoves. It's not that woks don't work on induction stoves, but they don't work as well because it's primarily the bottom that gets hot on induction. On a gas stove, the sides get a lot hotter too because they wrap around the wok. There are induction stoves that are designed for woks, but they are rare and a "single purpose appliance", which I hate. If you wok a lot, then maybe a separate induction wok burner is worth it, but for me I'll just make do with slightly worse woking capabilities.
• It's possible to "grill" some things on the flame, like if you want to char a bell pepper or something along those lines. A small handheld burner will serve the same purpose though and costs like 10 dollars. Plus the handheld one is more precise and can be used for things too (like creme brulee)
• If you have certain types of pacemakers, stand way too close, and the pot is incorrectly positioned on the stove, then an induction stove could interfere with your pacemaker. This is not an issue with gas stoves. Please do keep in mind that it seems very rare for induction stoves to interfere with pacemakers and I wouldn't worry about it if I had one. This has been studied for like 20 years now and plenty of countries have moved to induction stoves without issues. But you do you.
• It continues to work if you have a power outage, unlike an induction stove which requires power. If you live in an area with unreliable power delivery then this might be a benefit to you.

 

Drawbacks of gas compared to induction:

• They are way less efficient. You are wasting far more resources and energy when cooking with gas than induction (assuming you can get electricity through efficient and environmentally friendly means). This is what we should strive for in new buildings. I can understand not wanting to renovate old buildings, but for new buildings, we should use the method of cooking that allows for environmentally friendly cooking. Natural gas is not environmentally friendly when compared to several ways of making electricity. Plus the heating power is more concentrated so less is wasted.
• The highest heat output possible on induction is a lot lower on gas stoves. Gas stovers are simply less powerful than induction. It's usually not possible to get a pan as hot on a gas stove as it is on an induction stove. This is very noticeable with things like bringing a pot of water to a boil. Or if you for example want to cook a thinly sliced piece of meat so that it has a good brown crust on the outside, but is not overcooked on the inside. That's pretty much impossible on a gas stove but very doable on induction stoves.
• Gas stoves heats up your kitchen a lot more (because it transfers a lot more energy into the air than the pot and pan). Not just the kitchen itself, but also things positioned next to your stove. The metal handle on the pot. A ladle resting on the edge of a pan. This is especially a pain in the ass in commercial kitchens, which is why many chefs prefer induction to gas these days. For example in this video from 9 years ago Michel Roux Jr, owner of the 2 michelin-starred restraunt Le Gavroche says that's the reason why they like induction so much. Becuase working in a kitchen is a pain in the ass when you got 10 gas stoves all blasting out a ton of heat in the room. It's so much more pleasant to work with induction, especially if you are a professional chef. My professional chef friends agree (all three of them). In Sweden, you won't find anyone who cooks with gas except Asian restaurants. We all moved to induction like 10+ years ago.
• Gas stoves can be dangerous as mentioned in this article. Even if you have good ventilation, you are still being exposed to the gas, there can be leaks, and so on. Remember, your face is usually located between the stove and the ventilation. Pretty much no matter how good your ventilation is, you will end up breathing in some amount of toxic gas, and that's without factor in things like leaks.
• It is a lot easier to burn things on a gas stove, because the sides gets a lot hotter than on an induction stove. This is a big problem when you are for example making sauces, especially something that is easy to burn and/or sensitive to heat. Link a custard. Once a bit of sauce splashes up on the side of the pot, chances are it will be burnt because you can't stir it off like you do on the base of the pot. On induction, only the bas gets heated by the stove. This is exactly what you want in most cases. The only scenario I can think of where you actually want the stove to heat the side is when woking.
• The lowest setting on a gas stove is usually a fairly high temperature. On an induction stove, you have a really wide range of temperatures, including very low output, which is great for things like custards, or melting chocolate, or other things where there is a risk of burning. Gas stoves do not let you turn the power down that low, because there would be a risk that the flames goes out and if that happens, your room would fill up with gas. The dynamic range is a lot higher on induction.
• Cleaning a gas stove is a pain in the ass compared to an induction stove.
• You can't accidentally leave the stove on after removing the pot, nor can you accidentally turn on the wrong "burner" because the stove can not get hot without a pot placed on top of the "burner". This is especially good when you have kids that might press the buttons because they think it's fun.

 

Please don't get induction stoves confused with stoves that operate using resistive heating. I am not sure what to call those but they are sometimes referred to as just "electric stoves" or "ceramic stoves", but both of those terms could also be used to describe an induction stove. I feel like a lot of people who are against induction stoves don't actually know what they are, and instead think of the stoves that use resistive heating. I could understand preferring gas to those, but I don't understand how anyone can prefer gas to induction (unless they have listened to too much shilling from gas companies).

For anyone trying to Google this now, if someone ever mentions gas being more "responsive", they are talking about resistive stoves, not induction. Induction is just as responsive as gas. It's resistively heated stoves that are slow to respond to changes.

[NobleGamer]

11 hours ago, Needfuldoer said:

Some people blew this out of proportion, taking it as an affront and whipping each other into a frenzy over stories they made up about an imminent gas range ban and how they'll all be forced to replace theirs with an electric range.

In any case, there were real stories about potential gas stove restrictions or bans being on the table (from WSJ), though agencies walked them back:

 

Quote

A debate over gas stoves began in early January after a commissioner with the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission said in an interview with Bloomberg that any option, including a ban, was on the table as the agency considered the safety of the appliances. Commissioner Richard Trumka Jr. later clarified his statement, saying the CPSC “isn’t coming for anyone’s gas stoves.”

It was reignited in February when the Energy Department proposed new energy-conservation standards for consumer-cooking appliances. The proposed standards, which would go into effect in 2027, would apply to new products. Some industry groups voiced concern that the proposals would effectively bar some less-efficient models from the market.

 

[dogwitch]

also most of the research done. if you followed who did it...

well their a reason why most papers are not peer reviewed on the matter.

it also fails if you notice with most papers the legal code req for exhaust systems. magical is gone from the study....

[seanondemand]

having cooked a lot on both, I have come to the conclusion that the only reason to cook with gas is if you're using a wok every day. Induction (especially a mid-high end one like I've ended up with) is crazy powerful, super easy to control (instantly responsive), dead simple to clean, and way safer. It just sucks for wok cooking (no heat coming up the sides). 

 

Funnily enough, when we were hunting around for a cooktop in the pandemic days and thought we'd have to go top dollar, our local Wolf dealer told us that their single most popular configuration that year was a 24" induction cooktop with a single wok burner next to it.

[Rocketdog2112]

Ever price an induction stove? 

Yeah... There's that 

Where I live I can go for days without electricity if we experience severe weather. But I'm still cooking with my gas stove. Try that with an induction. 

Gas is the way to go. 

[BrandonLatzig]

1 hour ago, seanondemand said:

having cooked a lot on both, I have come to the conclusion that the only reason to cook with gas is if you're using a wok every day. Induction (especially a mid-high end one like I've ended up with) is crazy powerful, super easy to control (instantly responsive), dead simple to clean, and way safer. It just sucks for wok cooking (no heat coming up the sides). 

 

Funnily enough, when we were hunting around for a cooktop in the pandemic days and thought we'd have to go top dollar, our local Wolf dealer told us that their single most popular configuration that year was a 24" induction cooktop with a single wok burner next to it.

I have actually read an article (I dont remember the name on it so feel free to call it fake cuz it might of been) that inductive Woks were actually pretty good, then again idk. My house has an extra range and *personally* I have put my support towards removing gas stoves. 
I have used both and gas DOES give you some time to put the pan on and get your stuff into the pan that electric *doesnt* have like that. but really its just....
It doesn't really matter. hell I would like to see more flat tops being in homes compared to burners, since they are very very helpful

[SnugglyGirl]

In New York they have actually banned gas stoves and furnaces in new buildings.

There was a big uproar with it not being "Green" which is why they were trying to ban it. Ontop of that, anyone against the ban was called a conspiricy theroist.

 

I know New York is now trying to ban coal and wood burning pizza ovens so you can see where it all leads.

[baxbunny]

Thanks for all the reponses! Looks like there are some opposing opinions on it. Maybe Linus will talk about it in more detail one day.

[LAwLz]

2 hours ago, Rocketdog2112 said:

Where I live I can go for days without electricity if we experience severe weather. But I'm still cooking with my gas stove. Try that with an induction. 

Gas is the way to go. 

Yes, gas is the way to go if you often are without electricty.

If it happens on rare occasions then I'd suggest getting a propane-powered burner and then just use induction for all the time when you do have access to electricity.

There is no sense in using something that's inferior most of the time because on some rare occasions, it might be better.

 

 

1 hour ago, BrandonLatzig said:

I have actually read an article (I dont remember the name on it so feel free to call it fake cuz it might of been) that inductive Woks were actually pretty good, then again idk. My house has an extra range and *personally* I have put my support towards removing gas stoves. 

I mean, woks do work on induction stoves, but I would argue that it isn't as good. Most woks are so thin that you really need that engulfing flame to keep all parts of the wok heated. On induction, only the small part of the bottom gets really hot. The sides stay fairly cool. Maybe not cool enough to comfortably touch with your hands, but not hot enough to actually cook food properly.

I wok on my induction stove from time to time, but you'd have to point a gun to my face before I say induction was as good or better than gas for woking.

But as I've said several times already (because I feel like it's important to hammer in), that is pretty much the only instance I can think of where a gas stove is superior. Induction stoves really are far superior to gas when looking at the bigger picture. More powerful than gas stoves, better for the humans operating them (both in terms of fewer toxins but also a more pleasant environment), higher dynamic range (lower lows and higher highs), more friendly to the environment (if the power is clean, which I hope we'll get everywhere in the future), easier to clean, safer...

 

 

1 hour ago, SnugglyGirl said:

In New York they have actually banned gas stoves and furnaces in new buildings.

There was a big uproar with it not being "Green" which is why they were trying to ban it. Ontop of that, anyone against the ban was called a conspiricy theroist.

 

I know New York is now trying to ban coal and wood burning pizza ovens so you can see where it all leads.

That's not what is happening... This is what I mean by the discussion being infected with emotions. There is a ton of misinformation and FUD being spread, primarily by gas companies (usually indirectly by paying off politicians or influencers).

What is happening in New York is that pizzerias that use coal or wood-powered ovens will require proper ventilation, so that their workers won't have to breathe in a ton of toxic fumes for 8 hours a day. It's not the pizza ovens that are getting banned. They are raising the requirements for ventilation. And yes, burning coal is not "green". No need to add quotation marks. I think any rational person can agree that burning coal is not "green", even though they aren't banning that in New York.

 

Also, this does not have anything to do with the gas ban. It is possible to think "hey, we shouldn't be burning coal in enclosed spaces where people work if we don't have proper ventilation" without also thinking "we should ban gas stoves". They are two separate issues, even though both are about peoples' health.

 

I have read the legislation, unlike SnugglyGirl who I am fairly sure just read some headline saying "New York is banning wood ovens!". This is what the legislation says in simple English.

Restaurants using ovens older than 2016 will need to evaluate if their ovens meet the emission control standards for odors, smoke, and particulate matter currently enforced on ovens made after 2016.

If the older ovens release too much smoke and toxic particles in the space they operate in, they will need to be retrofitted with emission control devices.

 

It's also worth noting that a lot of ovens built before 2016 already comply with the regulation because the bar isn't that high. It is estimated that it will affect less than 100 restaurants. I couldn't find a reliable number, but the NYC Department of Health at one point estimated there to be ~1600 pizzerias in New York. If that's accurate then that means that around 6,25% of pizzerias will actually have to do anything to comply with the new rules, and those pizzerias might "just" need to install some fans and filters to comply (not even replace their ovens). 

Also, similar regulations were imposed in Naples, the birthplace of pizza, in 2015. Let me tell you, pizza in Neples, not even wood-fired pizza, died out from the regulation. Pizzerias just installed proper ventilation and they kept making pizza, but with better health for their workers.

 

I won't call you a conspiracy theorist for being pro-gas and against induction. I will however say you are most likely being misled by marketing campaigns funded by gas companies that do not care about your health or the environment and instead just want to ensure they make money, even if it means you die early as a result. Gas companies do not have your best interest in mind. That might be worth remembering when choosing who to trust. Or better yet, stop letting other people interpret things for you and instead go to first-hand sources. I know it's not as entertaining as reading some headline and then getting riled up, but it's a hell of a lot more informative, and you actually get the truth. So don't just take my word for it, read the legislation for yourself.

Here is the New York legislation. You can find the relevant parts on PDF page 32 (labeled page 31 in the document). 

[Rocketdog2112]

5 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Yes, gas is the way to go if you often are without electricty.

If it happens on rare occasions then I'd suggest getting a propane-powered burner and then just use induction for all the time when you do have access to electricity.

There is no sense in using something that's inferior most of the time because on some rare occasions, it might be better.

 

 

Their is nothing "inferior" about my gas range. It works perfectly 100% of the time, cooks my food perfectly and has yet to sicken or interfere with my health. 

Matter of fact... In the 58 years I have been on this Earth, I've been in a household utilizing a gas stove (and gas heat) for the majority of my life with no ill health effects from either source of gas usage. 

 

Marketing campaigns have never influenced my choice to use gas, but experience has. I won't own a home without some source of gas, whether it be natural gas or propane for both heating and cooking. 

 

The gas stove debate is nothing more that an attack on the fossil fuel industry by a bunch of Karen's. 

 

[ToboRobot]

Eco activism gone awry.

My mom saw this uproar when her gas oven died and bought an electric replacement until she realize it would be thousands of dollars to disconnect the gas and upgrade the power for the new oven (the cost exceeded the cost of a new gas oven).

Venting is already required when cooking, so the toxic fume argument is bunk.

So the only argument is climate change, and using a gas stove isn't as bad as the natural gas furnace, or gas SUV they have.

This doesn't make logical sense, so perhaps the conspiracy nutters have something to say about the economic or power incentive involved in this.

[LAwLz]

37 minutes ago, Rocketdog2112 said:

Their is nothing "inferior" about my gas range. It works perfectly 100% of the time, cooks my food perfectly and has yet to sicken or interfere with my health. 

Yes, there are several ways your gas range is inferior.

1) It can't get as hot as induction.

2) It can't maintain as low temperatures as an induction.

3) It causes you to breathe in toxic gases, and you absolutely do not know if it has interfered with your health or not. It's not like it causes you to get a cold and then it's over. It's an issue that builds up over time, and it is especially harmful to children. An estimated 12,7% of child asthma cases in the US can be linked to gas stoves. Even if they don't fully develop asthma, it can also lead to things like permanent wheezing. It also worsens the symptoms for people who have respiratory illnesses. It also carries a higher risk of other respiratory diseases like bronchitis and emphysema. Here is another source.

4) The same toxic gases that are dangerous to humans are also harmful to the environment.

 

They are worse for cooking with. They are worse for humans to live with. They are worse for the environment. They are inferior.

Denying this is just denying science. Might as well deny the sky being blue.

Even if you have perfect health and have had no negative consequences of using a gas stove, it's still an increased risk. I have never been in a car crash. Does that mean I should drive without a seat belt because "it has never done me any good"? Of course not. It's about minimizing the risk, and it's about lessening the consequences of something bad happens.

 

 

48 minutes ago, Rocketdog2112 said:

Marketing campaigns have never influenced my choice to use gas, but experience has. I won't own a home without some source of gas, whether it be natural gas or propane for both heating and cooking. 

I am sure it hasn't...

Why do you refuse to buy a home that isn't heated by gas or cook with anything other than gas? It sounds to me like this is driven by emotions rather than facts.

 

 

49 minutes ago, Rocketdog2112 said:

The gas stove debate is nothing more that an attack on the fossil fuel industry by a bunch of Karen's. 

Yeah, all those scientists named Karen are just attacking the poor fossil fuel industry.

The fossil fuel industry is the real victim here, not the tens of thousands of people with health problems that can be linked to fossil fuel usage.

I went through your post history and you seem to have an issue with experts in general. You disagree with experts regarding climate change. You disagree with experts regarding covid. Now you deny that breathing in methane gas can have negative health effects.

Do you ever stop and think "Maybe the experts are right sometimes"? If you constantly end up disagreeing with experts from various fields then perhaps you should reevaluate how you approach research. It can't be that experts are always wrong and you're always right, right?

[Rocketdog2112]

1 minute ago, LAwLz said:

Yes, there are several ways your gas range is inferior.

1) It can't get as hot as induction.

2) It can't maintain as low temperatures as an induction.

3) It causes you to breathe in toxic gases, and you absolutely do not know if it has interfered with your health or not. It's not like it causes you to get a cold and then it's over. It's an issue that builds up over time, and it is especially harmful to children. An estimated 12,7% of child asthma cases in the US can be linked to gas stoves. Even if they don't fully develop asthma, it can also lead to things like permanent wheezing. It also worsens the symptoms for people who have respiratory illnesses. It also carries a higher risk of other respiratory diseases like bronchitis and emphysema. Here is another source.

4) The same toxic gases that are dangerous to humans are also harmful to the environment.

 

They are worse for cooking with. They are worse for humans to live with. They are worse for the environment. They are inferior.

Denying this is just denying science. Might as well deny the sky being blue.

Even if you have perfect health and have had no negative consequences of using a gas stove, it's still an increased risk. I have never been in a car crash. Does that mean I should drive without a seat belt because "it has never done me any good"? Of course not. It's about minimizing the risk, and it's about lessening the consequences of something bad happens.

 

 

I am sure it hasn't...

Why do you refuse to buy a home that isn't heated by gas or cook with anything other than gas? It sounds to me like this is driven by emotions rather than facts.

 

 

Yeah, all those scientists named Karen are just attacking the poor fossil fuel industry.

The fossil fuel industry is the real victim here, not the tens of thousands of people with health problems that can be linked to fossil fuel usage.

I went through your post history and you seem to have an issue with experts in general. You disagree with experts regarding climate change. You disagree with experts regarding covid. Now you deny that breathing in methane gas can have negative health effects.

Do you ever stop and think "Maybe the experts are right sometimes"? If you constantly end up disagreeing with experts from various fields then perhaps you should reevaluate how you approach research. It can't be that experts are always wrong and you're always right, right?

"Households that use electric ranges have a higher risk of cooking fires and associated losses than those using gas ranges. Although 60 percent of households cook with electricity four out of five (80 percent) ranges or cooktops involved in reported cooking fires were powered by electricity."

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/ban-electric-ranges-a-progressive-freakout-from-an-alternative-universe/

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, ToboRobot said:

Venting is already required when cooking, so the toxic fume argument is bunk.

The argument is not bunk because:

1) A lot of people do not have adequate ventilation. Even among those who do, people from time to time do not use the ventilation at all. The study I will link later found that 24-40% of the households did not properly use the ventilation they had (it was turned off). 

2) Even the people who do have adequate ventilation will end up exposed to methane gas and several toxic fumes because your face will often be located between the gas source and the ventilation when cooking. It doesn't matter how powerful your ventilation is if the gas has to pass around your face to get to the ventilation.

3) A large part of the problem is that gas stoves very often leak gas, even when turned off. Most people I know don't have their cooking ventilation on full blast when their stove is turned off. The pipes can also leak.

 

 

Look, I do not recommend anyone rip out their gas stove and replace it with an electric one just because of these health hazards. Doing so can be a very expensive and impractical endeavor as your mom found out. But the idea that gas stoves don't have serious health risks is not grabbed out of thin air. There is a mountain of evidence supporting it. How big or small the health risks are varies from situation to situation, but it is an unnecessary risk when we have a cooking method that is objectively superior in 99% of cases.

[Lurick]

1 hour ago, Rocketdog2112 said:

The gas stove debate is nothing more that an attack on the fossil fuel industry by a bunch of Karen's.

You mean the right wing Karens who made it an issue when none existed before because people were asking questions and exploring options?

[LAwLz]

20 minutes ago, Rocketdog2112 said:

"Households that use electric ranges have a higher risk of cooking fires and associated losses than those using gas ranges. Although 60 percent of households cook with electricity four out of five (80 percent) ranges or cooktops involved in reported cooking fires were powered by electricity."

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/ban-electric-ranges-a-progressive-freakout-from-an-alternative-universe/

Wow, that seems like a very politically charged website. It didn't take many minutes before the author started talking about specific politicians and how he dislikes them. Sounds to me like he just wants to be against something because someone else is for it.

 

Please note that all the statistics mentioned in that article are about resistive heating ranges, not induction stoves.

I think resistive heating ranges are awful and I totally understand why someone would want to use them, but induction stoves are not the same as resistive heating stoves. Induction stoves are significantly safer than resistive heating stoves. Please don't conflate the two. In fact, the report cited says that the two biggest reasons for the disaparty between gas and resistve stoves can be explained by:

1) Electric stoves not being as clear as gas stoves if they are on or off.

2) Electric stoves take longer to cool down, and as a result, people may put flammable things on them while they are still hot.

 

Neither of those things is an issue with induction stoves. Induction also doesn't suffer from the other issues highlighted in the report, such as:

 

Accidentally leaving the stove on (induction stoves do not work unless there is a pot or pan on the heating element).

Putting things too close to the heat source (with induction, only the pan gets hot).

Failure to clear (induction is far easier to clean).

 

 

 

I also think this part is important to highlight:

Quote

The Worcester Fire Department in Massachusetts retrofitted electric coil ranges with temperature limiting controls in four apartment buildings for low-income older adults that had experienced a combined average of 12 reported cooking fires per month in 2015. Roughly 800 ranges were retrofitted. No stovetop fires were reported in any of those units during the 10 months after installation.14

 

[Donut417]

17 hours ago, LAwLz said:

they aren't, and induction stoves have many benefits. I'll get to that later in this post.

Does induction stoves work during a power outage? 
 

See that’s the biggest benefit to gas. No power? Still have hot water because gas hot water heaters don’t need electricity. Gas stoves can be lit with a match or lighter. If they want to push all electric then the grid needs to have an up time of 99.9999999% regardless of weather events. 

[LAwLz]

Just now, Donut417 said:

Does induction stoves work during a power outage? 
 

See that’s the biggest benefit to gas. No power? Still have hot water because gas hot water heaters don’t need electricity. Gas stoves can be lit with a match or lighter. If they want to push all electric then the grid needs to have an up time of 99.9999999% regardless of weather events. 

Before I continue, please remember that I am not advocating for ripping your old stove out and replacing it with an induction stove. I am strictly talking about new houses here. Ripping out old stoves and replacing them with induction will probably be painful and doesn't solve the whole issue. I am strictly talking about, if you are someone who is planning on building a new house, on a new lot that doesn't have any gas pipes going to it, I think you should go with induction.

 

 

 

But anyway to answer your question, no, and I highlighted that issue here:

17 hours ago, LAwLz said:

• It continues to work if you have a power outage, unlike an induction stove which requires power. If you live in an area with unreliable power delivery then this might be a benefit to you.

 

But we should not fall into the fallacy of "but sometimes this new thing is worse, so we should stick with the old stuff!".

How often do you get power outages? If it's very rare, then perhaps it would be possible to have a propane tank in your storage and use that if you are left without power for an extended period of time. Or maybe use your car's battery as a backup power solution. If you get power outages a lot (I haven't had one longer than a minute for the last  ~10 years) then perhaps having a backup power solution would be beneficial not just for your stove, but other things too.

 

Sidenote, using a gas stove during a power outage is not a great idea, because of the lack of ventilation. The toxic gases are an issue in a best-case scenario. It's an even bigger issue when you don't have any mechanical ventilation at all. You really should avoid using a gas stove without ventilation, especially if you have children in the house.

[starsmine]

1 hour ago, Donut417 said:

Does induction stoves work during a power outage? 
 

See that’s the biggest benefit to gas. No power? Still have hot water because gas hot water heaters don’t need electricity. Gas stoves can be lit with a match or lighter. If they want to push all electric then the grid needs to have an up time of 99.9999999% regardless of weather events. 

Just have a camping stove for those few hours you are without power and must prepare a hot meal now or starve to death. When you are in an area with no power for many days, you have other issues at hand that are far more important to deal with than your stove, and solutions that are just as viable. like a bbq. All of these solutions have you go outside. As was already pointed out, using a gas stove with no power is a mid solution when there is no ventilation. 
 

 

2 hours ago, ToboRobot said:

Eco activism gone awry.

My mom saw this uproar when her gas oven died and bought an electric replacement until she realize it would be thousands of dollars to disconnect the gas and upgrade the power for the new oven (the cost exceeded the cost of a new gas oven).

Venting is already required when cooking, so the toxic fume argument is bunk.

So the only argument is climate change, and using a gas stove isn't as bad as the natural gas furnace, or gas SUV they have.

This doesn't make logical sense, so perhaps the conspiracy nutters have something to say about the economic or power incentive involved in this.

Also... wild fact... Many gas stoves have no ventilation, very few areas actually have that as part of the housing code for whatever reason. Housing codes are also rarely retroactive when they do make changes to them. Its absolutely unhinged. that little air filter combo in those microwaves over your stove is NOT ventilation. 

Disconnecting gas should not cost that much, its unfortunate that it does in your situation, there are solutions to this but not available to your mother at that time in her area.

Upgrading power for the new oven, should not be as described. There is this weird idea that the panel needs to have enough power to have everything on all at once, and its. not true. Thankfully with the advent of smart panels (not smart as in connect to the internet, smart as in, can turn off circuits to not overload itself and turn them back on), that is becoming less of an issue.

If you needed new wiring to the stove/oven area, yea I get it, but you dont need new power to the house itself. 

I also want to point out, Even with decent ventilation, the toxic fume argument is NOT bunk. You can test this yourself. The ventilation only gets some of the fumes. Not all of it. gas stoves still strongly elevate the amount of particulates in the air that you are better off not breathing, even in rooms across the house not even near the gas range.

[Donut417]

38 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

How often do you get power outages?

Every time Mother Nature sneezes. Also outages last days. Currently our power went off last evening. DTE estimates Saturday evening for restoration for around 95% of effected people. So 3 fucking days. 

[ToboRobot]

31 minutes ago, starsmine said:

Also... wild fact... Many gas stoves have no ventilation, very few areas actually have that as part of the housing code for whatever reason. Housing codes are also rarely retroactive when they do make changes to them. Its absolutely unhinged. that little air filter combo in those microwaves over your stove is NOT ventilation. 

Disconnecting gas should not cost that much, its unfortunate that it does in your situation, there are solutions to this but not available to your mother at that time in her area.

Upgrading power for the new oven, should not be as described. There is this weird idea that the panel needs to have enough power to have everything on all at once, and its. not true. Thankfully with the advent of smart panels (not smart as in connect to the internet, smart as in, can turn off circuits to not overload itself and turn them back on), that is becoming less of an issue.

If you needed new wiring to the stove/oven area, yea I get it, but you dont need new power to the house itself. 

I also want to point out, Even with decent ventilation, the toxic fume argument is NOT bunk. You can test this yourself. The ventilation only gets some of the fumes. Not all of it. gas stoves still strongly elevate the amount of particulates in the air that you are better off not breathing, even in rooms across the house not even near the gas range.

Ventilation isn't part of the oven, it's built into the kitchen like a range hood. 

Disconnecting gas and installing power is the problem.  If you have planned for a gas oven and allocated your electricity budget to certain appliances, when you change an appliance with large power draw to electricity, you may need to increase the available amperage in your home which is actually very expensive.   Just adding the 220 circuit to the kitchen is expensive.

Homes should have a ventilation for areas with fumes, from gas stoves or just cooking!  Homes actually bring in fresh air and exchange the old air.  I guess we should ban candles, and anything else that creates smoke or fumes because some homes might not have the proper airflow and filtration not to be unsafe.

You really don't seem to know as much about construction or home repairs as you think.  Yes, new wiring to the oven, and yes more power to the home.  Over double the cost of a new gas oven, just for the electrician!   (And it wasn't even Bryan!)

Yeah, I don't want to breath hazardous fumes, but properly vented kitchens and gas stoves are not a problem.  I live in a studio apartment with no vent in my kitchen, and I have an electric stove/oven, and guess what, I feel like SHIT when I cook with the windows closed because of the fumes!  Why isn't my landlord forced to install a proper vent?