Starter UPS for my PC?

[AlfaProto]

Before I proceed with my case study, I'll fill up my PC spec:

1. Intel Core i9-10850K
2. Gigabyte Z590 Vision D
3. 4x32GB Gigabyte Designare RAM (operating at JEDEC speed of 2.666 GT/s)
4. Zotac Trinity OC RTX 3080
5. 1 TB Samsung 980 SSD
6. 4 TB Samsung 870 Evo SSD
7. 2x3 TB Toshiba P300
8. ASUS Bluray Writer
9. 1x200mm Coolermaster MF200
10. 3x140mm  Coolermaster MF140 Halo
11. 2x120mm Coolermaster MF120 Halo
12. Seasonic Focus GX 750W
     

I've count more than 8 power trips last year alone, mostly due to the thundering weather, and 1 or 2 for unknown reason. The recent power trip in the apartment that I'm living in forced me to re-evaluate, and get a UPS. Imma gonna go retail, instead of online, and found this one, which cost $200 in my currency

https://www.apc.com/ph/en/product/BV1000I-MS/apc-easy-ups-1000va-floor-wall-mount-230v-4x-universal-outlets-avr/

 

 

 

 

[Monsterkater]

So, what is your question? 

[manikyath]

there's two things here that arent ideal:

- stepped approximation sine wave (ideally you find one that's a propper sine wave)

- 1000VA (that's 600 watts because powerfactor) might be enough, but in ideal situations on a fresh battery, you're maybe getting 10 minutes of runtime (when the battery took a few beatings, make that less than 5..)

 

apparently APC is still stepped approximation troughout their range (i'm running off stepped too, it's fine, but makes power supplies quite.. screamy.)

but i do suggest if the budget and availability allows, to step up towards something like this:

https://www.apc.com/shop/be/en/products/APC-Back-UPS-Pro-1500VA-865W-Tower-230V-10x-IEC-C13-outlets-AVR-LCD-User-Replaceable-Battery/P-BR1500GI

 

unlike for the base model stuff like yours, they actually quote runtimes on this thing, and it's got twice the battery capacity (which, because they're in series and lead-acid is weird, actually more than doubles your capacity)

 

something i do want to add, in case people come in kicking and screaming about APC's battery costs... they use bone stock lead-acid batteries you can get from just about any battery supplier, and replacing them is easy once you've figured out the details of how things come apart.

given that you're looking at 8 trips per year, if you happen to be gaming at all 8 of those trips, you're gonna be swapping out batteries more than once per year if you need their full rated capacity, so getting something bigger also means you can beat up the cells for longer before replacing them.

[Aaron_T]

To add to the above.

600 watts on the UPS could potentially cause system crashes under full load because your PSU is 750 watts. Probably not an issue most the time, but I have had this issue with a 900watt UPS and a 1300watt PSU.

[manikyath]

17 minutes ago, Aaron_T said:

600 watts on the UPS could potentially cause system crashes under full load because your PSU is 750 watts.

false.

 

the wattage of the power supply has nothing to do with this, it's all about how much the components actually wants to draw, and wether the UPS decides it'll want to drive that or not.

 

i've had a 650 watt power supply on a 350 watt UPS for YEARS, but the entire system only ever draws like 150, so it doesnt matter two hoots.

[AlfaProto]

3 hours ago, manikyath said:

there's two things here that arent ideal:

- stepped approximation sine wave (ideally you find one that's a propper sine wave)

- 1000VA (that's 600 watts because powerfactor) might be enough, but in ideal situations on a fresh battery, you're maybe getting 10 minutes of runtime (when the battery took a few beatings, make that less than 5..)

 

apparently APC is still stepped approximation troughout their range (i'm running off stepped too, it's fine, but makes power supplies quite.. screamy.)

but i do suggest if the budget and availability allows, to step up towards something like this:

https://www.apc.com/shop/be/en/products/APC-Back-UPS-Pro-1500VA-865W-Tower-230V-10x-IEC-C13-outlets-AVR-LCD-User-Replaceable-Battery/P-BR1500GI

 

unlike for the base model stuff like yours, they actually quote runtimes on this thing, and it's got twice the battery capacity (which, because they're in series and lead-acid is weird, actually more than doubles your capacity)

 

something i do want to add, in case people come in kicking and screaming about APC's battery costs... they use bone stock lead-acid batteries you can get from just about any battery supplier, and replacing them is easy once you've figured out the details of how things come apart.

given that you're looking at 8 trips per year, if you happen to be gaming at all 8 of those trips, you're gonna be swapping out batteries more than once per year if you need their full rated capacity, so getting something bigger also means you can beat up the cells for longer before replacing them.

I mean, I'm literally getting it, so that I could safely shut down, or put the computer to sleep.

Your suggestion is more of a later step up, perhaps years down the road once I am more familiar with getting a more beefier UPS, and is willing to get a more expensive, and feature rich UPS.

Yes, it's kinda suck that I'm looking for a starter kit, even though it lacks user replaceable batteries and management features.

I recalled only 2 out of 8 trips I was in the middle of Overwatch casual, the rest were just idling on Youtube, or the web, or doing modding using lightweight 3D modelling app.

39 minutes ago, Aaron_T said:

To add to the above.

600 watts on the UPS could potentially cause system crashes under full load because your PSU is 750 watts. Probably not an issue most the time, but I have had this issue with a 900watt UPS and a 1300watt PSU.

I should really get a power meter and measure my total system (+2 monitors). The only estimation I could get is a detuned 10850K "200W" (1.2V +- adaptive voltage at 150A) and a RTX 3080 "250W" (power limited to 70%), total about ~600W. That's based on 1 VM + Resolve video rendering.

[manikyath]

3 hours ago, AlfaProto said:

I mean, I'm literally getting it, so that I could safely shut down, or put the computer to sleep.

how fast can you react? how fast can your computer shut down? what if you're on the loo?

i'm talking literal minutes before the UPS is screaming for mercy.

 

3 hours ago, AlfaProto said:

perhaps years down the road once I am more familiar with getting a more beefier UPS

there's also no such thing as "getting a base model now because you're new to it". a UPS isnt like getting a cheap bicycle to learn how to ride it, and get a propper bike once you get into it. it either suffices, or it doesnt. if you're murdering the battery each time a power cut happens because you're right on the edge of what the system can do, you'll be spending more on batteries in the short term than you would have spent on getting a better unit.

 

and if you cant quite entirely shut down because the UPS conks out too fast, it's been a wasted exercise in it's entirety.

 

even at peak loads my pc doesnt consume more than 400-ish watts, add at most 100 watts for peripherals to that. my 700W (24V 'double' battery) unit pulls maybe 15-20 minutes on a fresh battery, a year or two down the road i'm happy if it makes five.

i've upgraded the 350W (12V 'single' battery) unit i've had for my server (150-ish watts total load) because i was spending more on constantly replacing that single battery than on the double battery for my desktop.

[AlfaProto]

9 hours ago, manikyath said:

how fast can you react? how fast can your computer shut down? what if you're on the loo?

i'm talking literal minutes before the UPS is screaming for mercy.

 

there's also no such thing as "getting a base model now because you're new to it". a UPS isnt like getting a cheap bicycle to learn how to ride it, and get a propper bike once you get into it. it either suffices, or it doesnt. if you're murdering the battery each time a power cut happens because you're right on the edge of what the system can do, you'll be spending more on batteries in the short term than you would have spent on getting a better unit.

 

and if you cant quite entirely shut down because the UPS conks out too fast, it's been a wasted exercise in it's entirety.

 

even at peak loads my pc doesnt consume more than 400-ish watts, add at most 100 watts for peripherals to that. my 700W (24V 'double' battery) unit pulls maybe 15-20 minutes on a fresh battery, a year or two down the road i'm happy if it makes five.

i've upgraded the 350W (12V 'single' battery) unit i've had for my server (150-ish watts total load) because i was spending more on constantly replacing that single battery than on the double battery for my desktop.

All of my trips, I wasn't really AFC, and once again, all of the trips are NOT during full load (CPU + GPU full load). I don't think Overwatch is using 100% GPU usage, nor CPU. It's more 30:50 (CPU:GPU %). Even I'm not gaming; watching Youtube or doing file transfer, it's not slow to reach the shut down/sleep button.

 

Yes, you are---when you are young, you buy a buy with training wheels, or even without the training wheels, you don't even need to care about the frame, the brakes, the tyres, etc. It also has a finite life. I mean when you are a teen or an adult, you can't even use a children's bike.

 

I never say a base model, implying I can made it bigger down the road. I'm talking about a starter model, which is basically a dead end once the life comes to an end.

 

You are the textbook definition of scare mongering people who are trying to get into PC building, aren't really helping and I'm not expecting an answer from you. Bye!

[manikyath]

2 hours ago, AlfaProto said:

You are the textbook definition of scare mongering people who are trying to get into PC building, aren't really helping and I'm not expecting an answer from you. Bye!

i am the textbook definition of making sure you dont waste money now on something you're gonna throw away one or 2 years down the line, based on my own experience.

 

and if you think i'm the sort of person that's gatekeeping people from PC building, the other day i helped someone out with upgrading some antique office banger to be able to get into computers at all on basicly zero budget.

in fact - if you'd have read my post at all, my point is that in the long run you'll end up saving money with a bigger UPS, because you wont wear down the battery as hard, meaning you dont have to replace it as often.

 

did you want advice from someone with experience, or did you want a bunch of "yes-men" to come in to say your pick is awesome?

[Monsterkater]

On 3/4/2023 at 8:17 AM, AlfaProto said:

All of my trips, I wasn't really AFC, and once again, all of the trips are NOT during full load (CPU + GPU full load). I don't think Overwatch is using 100% GPU usage, nor CPU. It's more 30:50 (CPU:GPU %). Even I'm not gaming; watching Youtube or doing file transfer, it's not slow to reach the shut down/sleep button.

Even so, you never know when power does go out, that's just the nature of power outages. How can you be 100% sure your power doesn't trip while your PC is updating with no real possibility to put it to sleep in a reasonable amount of time?

 

On 3/4/2023 at 8:17 AM, AlfaProto said:

I'm talking about a starter model, which is basically a dead end once the life comes to an end.

Yeah, but you could just as easily spend a little more now to get something serviceable for the future instead of trashing whatever you buy now away in the foreseeable future in order to buy something better anyway? It's just a waste of money is all.

 

I mean, no-one's stopping you, really. As previously stated, you might get enough life out of that thing to barely shut down your PC. Also, you might just not. It's very questionable and batteries aging is a thing to consider. Meaning, even if it barely suffices when it is new, there's no guarantee it will still do so in a few months time. It's just not worth the hassle IMO.

What you're suggesting is pretty much the equivalent of buying a GT-class GPU for the sake of getting a display output, when you could just as well buy an actually capable GPU used for about the same price.

[Poinkachu]

On 3/4/2023 at 2:17 PM, AlfaProto said:

All of my trips, I wasn't really AFC, and once again, all of the trips are NOT during full load (CPU + GPU full load). I don't think Overwatch is using 100% GPU usage, nor CPU. It's more 30:50 (CPU:GPU %). Even I'm not gaming; watching Youtube or doing file transfer, it's not slow to reach the shut down/sleep button.

 

Yes, you are---when you are young, you buy a buy with training wheels, or even without the training wheels, you don't even need to care about the frame, the brakes, the tyres, etc. It also has a finite life. I mean when you are a teen or an adult, you can't even use a children's bike.

 

I never say a base model, implying I can made it bigger down the road. I'm talking about a starter model, which is basically a dead end once the life comes to an end.

 

You are the textbook definition of scare mongering people who are trying to get into PC building, aren't really helping and I'm not expecting an answer from you. Bye!

IMHO, @manikyath wasn't trying to scare you, just telling what could happen if you get X product. He was simply giving you a heads up of what to think about when using this kinda product.

Because honestly, your system is quite high spec, even on idle it will be quite a load. And UPSes power factor is ..... bad. I think the highest I ever seen was 0.7, that's what they said on their ads, real world usage? idk, probably lower. IMHO it's best to just assume the worst PF possible for this kinda product, like 0.5.

 

1000VA with 0.5pf = 500watts.

 

When the battery are new, yeah, most likely they can stay on quite awhile, after some time though there will be degradation in battery performance. Especially if the UPS is being hammered by shit electricity often.

If you can buy a higher capacity UPS, then may as well do so to save you some trouble in the long run and probably saving you from buying another UPS before the old one have to be retired.

 

As for Line-Interactive or Pure Sinewave, well, most if not all non liver selling UPS are line-interactive nowadays, fortunately though current PC PSU tech doesn't really mind.

And yes, I assume "stepped approximation sine wave" is APC's way of saying Line Interactive / modified sine wave. CMIIW.

 

IIRC, there's also UPSes that has software control using USB cable to your PC, in which you might be able to setup in the UPS software installed in your OS to shutdown your PC when battery reaches X percent. But yep, this feature will cost something. How well will it work? idk, depends on the software I think.

 

Ultimately it is up to you which you wanna buy, not like we can stop you.

We're just trying to help you see the whole picture of a world that you're about to enter. Most often because we've been there, done that.

[manikyath]

35 minutes ago, Poinkachu said:

 

IIRC, there's also UPSes that has software control using USB cable to your PC, in which you might be able to setup in the UPS software installed in your OS to shutdown your PC when battery reaches X percent. But yep, this feature will cost something. How well will it work? idk, depends on the software I think.

my APC units all have USB (another reason not to go for the absolute very bottom range - they're the only ones in APC's range that dont have it.)

and basicly, there's two options:

- install the software, and have the software issue a command (sleep, shutdown, something else?) on a certain condition (power goes out, wait 5 minutes, certain battery percentage, certain minutes of lifespan left)

- dont install the software, and it'll act as if your desktop is now a laptop, and you have windows' own power management to sort it out. my preferred side is this, with the configuration set to go to sleep on battery when the system is idle for 5 minutes, and it'll also go to sleep when the battery level is critical... same way a laptop does. (critical is set at 50% because i prefer saving some durability on my batteries over some extra runtime.)

[Poinkachu]

Just now, manikyath said:

my APC units all have USB (another reason not to go for the absolute very bottom range - they're the only ones in APC's range that dont have it.)

and basicly, there's two options:

- install the software, and have the software issue a command (sleep, shutdown, something else?) on a certain condition (power goes out, wait 5 minutes, certain battery percentage, certain minutes of lifespan left)

- dont install the software, and it'll act as if your desktop is now a laptop, and you have windows' own power management to sort it out. my preferred side is this, with the configuration set to go to sleep on battery when the system is idle for 5 minutes, and it'll also go to sleep when the battery level is critical... same way a laptop does. (critical is set at 50% because i prefer saving some durability on my batteries over some extra runtime.)

That... sounds nice.
May I know which model ? Probably gonna buy it if it's cheap enough in my country, when my current one needs to be retired

[manikyath]

1 hour ago, Poinkachu said:

That... sounds nice.
May I know which model ? Probably gonna buy it if it's cheap enough in my country, when my current one needs to be retired

some vareous sizes of APC back-ups.

 

on the note of 'current one needs to be retired' - unless it's 15 years old or something that really shouldnt be a thing. the only hardware fault i've encountered so far (aside from the bi-annual battery swap) is my smallest (and oldest) unit had the buzzer burn out.. which is a bonus if anything

[Poinkachu]

2 minutes ago, manikyath said:

some vareous sizes of APC back-ups.

 

on the note of 'current one needs to be retired' - unless it's 15 years old or something that really shouldnt be a thing. the only hardware fault i've encountered so far (aside from the bi-annual battery swap) is my smallest (and oldest) unit had the buzzer burn out.. which is a bonus if anything

Ehh... we'll see if mine lasts that long. It's a Prolink 1200va bought when I was broke. So far it's around 4 years old, changed battery for 3 times. One of it was because buzzer would not stop beeping after AC loss until II hard restart the UPS. CSR said due to battery, thankfully it was still in warranty.

 

If an APC with feature like yours is cheap enough, I'd probably just get it, use it for my gaming PC, then use the Prolink for something else.

[Pedro Henrique]

I'm also interested in knowing what model @manikyath is using.

[manikyath]

36 minutes ago, Pedro Henrique said:

I'm also interested in knowing what model @manikyath is using.

 

55 minutes ago, manikyath said:

some vareous sizes of APC back-ups.

 

[AlfaProto]

Looks like the community is as helpful as talking to the wall.

 

Always makes wrong assumption and wrongly assume the user's usage.