$100 vs $1200 Headphones

[AdamFromLTT]

Airpods are expensive and will only last you a few years. Well, that's true of all wireless earbuds. So why do we keep buying them? Convenience probably. But when you are spending tons of money on something, you want it to last right? Well that's a big reason why WIRED headphones are making a comeback. We take a look at some entry-level planar magnetic earbuds, the 7hz x Crinacle Salnotes Dioko and compare them against the flagship Audeze Euclids. Just how good can $100 dollar headphones be?
 

 

[Guest]

I like your better explanations of sounds and how things sound.
I appreciated your use of SFX too.

 

I doubt my thread had any impact on the writing, but I am glad that none of my concerns re-emerged.

Good job people that did this video!

[creesch]

Neat video. It is worth mentioning that there is a whole host of "regular" dynamic IEMs out there that offer incredible value for their money. 

 

Even better, Crinacle (yes the same from the video) is already a few years ahead of LTT Labs and maintains a IEM ranking list where you can sort by ranking but also things like value and price.

 

While planar IEMs can be awesome and the Crinacle tuned ones certainly are priced pretty well there are plenty of cheaper dynamic options. Options that for a ton of people will offer more than enough quality or other benefits.

 

For example, from the list sorted by value (screenshot below)

 

Moondrop Arias are about 70-80 bucks and pretty well tuned.

Moondrop Chu's are an absolute steal for around $20. Although they have fixed wires so no turning these wireless the way was done in the video. 

The Etymotics ER2 variants offer incredible passive isolation and a wide range of included tips. Disclaimer, they also go fairly deeply in the air canal and not everyone likes that. 

 

 

[EG-MAN]

13 minutes ago, creesch said:

Neat video. It is worth mentioning that there is a whole host of "regular" dynamic IEMs out there that offer incredible value for their money. 

 

Even better, Crinacle (yes the same from the video) is already a few years ahead of LTT Labs and maintains a IEM ranking list where you can sort by ranking but also things like value and price.

 

While planar IEMs can be awesome and the Crinacle tuned ones certainly are priced pretty well there are plenty of cheaper dynamic options. Options that for a ton of people will offer more than enough quality or other benefits.

 

For example, from the list sorted by value (screenshot below)

 

Moondrop Arias are about 70-80 bucks and pretty well tuned.

Moondrop Chu's are an absolute steal for around $20. Although they have fixed wires so no turning these wireless the way was done in the video. 

The Etymotics ER2 variants offer incredible passive isolation and a wide range of included tips. Disclaimer, they also go fairly deeply in the air canal and not everyone likes that. 

 

 

Outdated Ranking List, Crin will Update this list sooner 

[creesch]

7 minutes ago, EG-MAN said:

Outdated Ranking List, Crin will Update this list sooner 

This is directly from his website I just took a screenshot to show as an example for now. But year, for future reference people should visit the website itself (which I also linked) for the most recent data. 

[HenrySalayne]

The intro to this video is riddled with inaccuracies:

• "planar magnetic" drivers are (electro) dynamic drivers. They don't use a voice coil, but the principle is identical (the electro dynamic principle -.alternating current running through a conductor in a magnetic field). Yamaha called their planar magnetic drivers orthodynamic drivers.
• the diaphragm is not flexible but rigid for most voice coil drivers. The only exception would be a ring radiator, but all other drivers use a piston-like rigid membrane with a flexible suspension on the edge. Which brings us to the next point:
• reduced distortion of planar magnetic drivers is generally a myth. The "piston" design of most drivers has a simple reason: displacement and displaced volume are proportional which doesn't apply to planar magnetic drivers (the displaced volume is quasi-proportional for small displacements)
• "planar magnetic driver's unique sound signature"? -  The frequency response below 800 Hz is generally pretty even for planar magnetic headphones. That's probably because they are all built similarly. Still, different models of planar magnetic headphones sound completely different to one another. I think most people would have a hard time to know if it's a voice coil driver or a planar magnetic driver just by listening to a pair of headphones.
• "tend to be larger contributing to superior bass response" - Only for open-back headphones and only if the displaced volume is larger. But displacement for planar magnetic drivers is generally really small so they need the size to compete with voice coil drivers and displace a similar volume of air.
• the first patent for an electrodynamic driver was issued in 1877 to Werner von Siemens, Theile and Halske (you might recall the name Siemens) for a "gigantic electrodynamic telephone"

[Nilss]

If LTT is gonna keep ramping up audio related content, I'd like to share some feedback. And yes, I do realize that the audience is not all audiophiles so long-winded technical explenations are more than likely going to land on deaf ears. But some of the information included in the video aren't just oversimplified but more or less inaccurate. 

The title, "$100 vs $1200 headphones." These aren't headphones, they're iems. A lot of people are looking at this as noobies so it'd be best to use correct terminology to minimize confusion.
 

In the first chapter, linus says the wire has been coming back due to "connection issues, poor reparability, sound quality, and limited battery life." TechAltar made a video called "Why everybody is making earbuds" which I believe sums up the issues with TWS rather well. But where wired iems come into play is that they offer miles better sound quality at a fraction of the cost for the minor price of a little bit of convenience. A lot of the popularity of wired iems also spread through youtubers and word of mouth, there's not a lot of marketing being done by these companies. at least nowhere near as much as big brands. Wired IEMs are selling purely because they sound better.

Next up when discussing the difference between planar magnetic vs dynamic drivers, ignoring the mechanical differences the actual differences are a lot more complicated and not that important as far as IEMs are concerned. Bass extension, low distortion, and power handling are the most common thought advantages of planar headphones. but in IEMs, none of those are really following trends the same way headphones do. Pretty much any decent IEM can extend to 20hz, and power handling your ears will break before any IEM will. As for distortion, I think that should be looked at on a case-by-case basis.

So in short, you should not be buying anything purely because of the driver it uses, assuming it to be better because of it. 
In long, read the spoiler below.

Spoiler

most of what the video says is correct except for when he said "planar magnetic drivers also tend to be larger which contributes to a better bass response." There is some truth to this, having a larger heavier driver can lead to a lower resonant frequency which can help with bass extension. But this is one of the biggest misconceptions about planars 
Planar magnetic drivers don't have better bass response because of their size alone. If that were the case, then the tiny in-ear drivers of the salnotes would have no bass compared to actual full-sized headphone drivers. Or better yet, you'd see a massive change in bass extension (not bass quantity) between the salnotes and the euclids which have massively different sized drivers. In fact you'll find that even dynamic driver IEMs have very good extension. Its because both have an effectively air-tight seal around the ear canal that they have no issues with extension.

Bass extension has more to do with the seal of the driver around the ear, less to do with the type of driver used. You see that in a lot of planar magnetic headphones if you breach the seal with an improperly fitting pad or a pair of glasses, the bass extension gets nuked. The larger diaphragm of the planars can occasionally lead to a lower resonant frequency, which can help with bass response and minimize the impact of the breached seal. The hifiman edition XS is a great example of this. You can also see that some planar headphones with extremely thin and light diaphragms can still extend well below 20hz. 

More on planars, they usually require more power to operate. There are exceptions to this like audeze's LCD-4 or the LCD-GX which have sensitivities in db/mW higher than a lot of dynamic headphones. And that "50 year head start" for dynamic drivers isn't really relevant. Most of that time was spent on speakers, not headphones. For the longest time, headphones weren't taken seriously in the audio world. Its only in the last 10-20 years that they've been getting a lot of attention and improving dramatically. 

When discussing the sound profiles of each earbud, its usually best to lead with subjective review of the experience, not the objective review with the graph. Having a graph in front of you telling you what you're listening to can heavily bias the subjective review. Relying too heavily on measurements instead of personal listening skills also really allows the person interpreting those measurements to do a not excellent job. That being said, I think Linus (or whomever wrote this) did a fine job of interpreting the graph. Talking about how different frequencies affect different types of music enjoyment. In the future they should ABSOLUTELY NOT USE THE BOSE QC AS A TARGET FOR THE GRAPHS. That's the silliest thing I've ever seen. Include a harman target, diffuse field, or whatever in-house target that Sam's cooked up. Something that is consistent so you can look back at this years later and have a better idea of how to interpret the graph. I realize that its  useful for some consumers right now. but when the bose QC fall out of popularity, its gonna be useless. And exposing viewers to a real target curve is just better. Since even in the video, they dont even mention the bose in-ears. Simply replacing it with a "reference target" would accomplish the same thing.

And finally, at the end of the video, Linus mentions a bluetooth adapter, but in my opinion that little neck band is one of the worst form factors. Expanding on this category some more and showing more options for BT adapters would make wired IEMs a better competitor for TWS earbuds. Especially since the issues he mentions "No charging case and you still have a wire hanging off you" are easily fixed by the Fiio UTWS5. There are of course lots of options for wired to bluetooth adapters, but given the brevity of the video I think simply including this would have been sufficient.

 

 

 

 

[darwin006]

Its a bit insane that LTT posts wireless IEM videos constantly on their Short Circuit channel and then posts a video like this.

[BlueChinchillaEatingDorito]

For those who want to get into IEMs, as much crap KZ gets, the ZSN Pro X paired with the AZ09 Pro take my word, is a good starting point for under 75 CAD all in for a TWS IEM. 

[dizmo]

I always cringe when I see that LTT is going to do a review of something audio based. I get that you have to start somewhere, but as others have pointed out, there's lots of incorrect information being put forth. For example, the 2 pin connector is seen by many to be the superior interface, and is in fact in more IEMs than MMCX is. There are also far better solutions to make something wireless, like the set pointed out above...not the ridiculous looking one that's shown in the video. They also didn't mention BA drivers, which are very common in IEMs.

 

@creesch Crin is currently working on completely redoing his list, taking into account the new releases in technology we've seen over the past few years.

 

@Nilss Some good points, but I don't agree with people buying wired IEMs only considering the better sound quality. There's also the fact you don't need to charge them, better fit, more options, etc.

 

@darwin006 How is it insane? They post what people are interested in.

 

@BlueChinchillaEatingDorito Having owned a few budget ChiFi IEMs...I'd never get a KZ product again. After a few weeks of light use the finish is already wearing off of mine.

[Stan2292]

for IEMs, i'd say the point of diminishing return is around $300 - $400. if you have that kind of money to spend, get a moondrop blessing 2 or blessing 2 dusk (also tuned by crin) and you get 90%+ of the experience of $2k - $4k endgame IEMs.

[Skipple]

6 hours ago, Nilss said:

easily fixed by the Fiio UTWS5

Came here just to mention the FiiO UTWS line. I was kinda shocked that they didn't mention it at all when talking about a wireless adapter.

[Nilss]

@SkippleI am inclined to believe that whoever wrote for this video was not as informed as they could have been. 

[Psittac]

I absolutely loved this video.  Over the past couple years, ever since I built an OP rig in 2020 that will run everything I need I have fallen out of tech enthusiasm which has been replaced with audio enthusiasm.  About all I do on the forums anymore is post in the audio section.

 

I am thrilled to see LTT take on more audio topics and I am intrigued to see how they incorporate the labs into the video's.  Honestly the labs part was pretty small from a viewers POV, but I enjoyed the light placement of graphs and the buzz words used to describe the sound signature of one vs the other.

 

I find that the crux of the audio world is that you can't convey it through any medium very well.  Words fall short if you don't know what full or veiled or sibilant mean.  It took me 20 some odd pairs of headphones to fully understand what all of the buzzwords mean.  I think that a dedicated video, or incorporated into several audio videos should be how the average listener can relate to hot topic words in a meaningful way.  I did it by purchasing something that everyone has experience with and listening to them describe it, then getting another pair of headphones with different characteristics and compare and contrast between them and what other people say.  Again, that is the difficult part of audio reviews.  Everyone see's color differently but it's easy to quantify a high res color accurate monitor even if my red is your blue.  Audio not so much.

 

I greatly enjoyed how the tech portion of the review played a big role.  Granted as a hard core "audiophile" the whole ANC BT Wireless nonsense is malarky but I can appreciate the general consumers need for this information.  Good job LTT team!!!!

[FezBoy]

Really cool to see this video right after getting my Salnotes 7Hz Zeros, which I've been loving so far. I wish Salnotes sold that case as a separate product, I've just been wrapping them over-under and tossing them in my pocket, but they always tangle with my keys cuz i forget which pocket they're in.

A lot of people are complaining about the inaccuracies in the video, and like, y'all are technically correct, but for an LTT video marketed at people who don't know anything about the subject it's generally better not to get bogged in the details, yk?

[gRaN-Ma project]

16 hours ago, AdamFromLTT said:

Airpods are expensive and will only last you a few years. Well, that's true of all wireless earbuds. So why do we keep buying them? Convenience probably. But when you are spending tons of money on something, you want it to last right? Well that's a big reason why WIRED headphones are making a comeback. We take a look at some entry-level planar magnetic earbuds, the 7hz x Crinacle Salnotes Dioko and compare them against the flagship Audeze Euclids. Just how good can $100 dollar headphones be?
 

 

Quote

High-end audio is a class of consumer home audio equipment marketed to audiophiles on the basis of high price or quality, and esoteric or novel sound reproduction technologies. The term can refer simply to the price, to the build quality of the components, or to the subjective or objective quality of sound reproduction - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-end_audio - February 21, 2023 - UTC 08:11

Therefore no real comparison is possible. In addition, Audeze produces headphones not only for audiophiles, but especially for professionals of audio market as such as Eizo produces monitors for professionals of image and video markets. Obviously I don't think a professional would buy Euclids, but it's a subjective choice. I think he would prefer a headphone like LCD-X.

 

[tariandeath]

On 2/20/2023 at 3:16 PM, Nilss said:

The title, "$100 vs $1200 headphones." These aren't headphones, they're iems. A lot of people are looking at this as noobies so it'd be best to use correct terminology to minimize confusion.

Unfortunately this is probably a video performance decision using the incorrect terminology most likely performs better. IEMs are unfortunately a technical term, not a general term. But they do use IEM in the video.

[Haweh]

One time I can point out as someone who has very high end equipment is not only is there diminishing returns but that also is effected by what you listen to. It is curious that Linus mentioned Hotel California, nobody in serious audio circles thinks that's a real test. That's trivial to handle in those circles. Also pop tends to no get much better after a HD600 at most. 

 

If he's looking to test bass I will point to the Downward Spiral, and the big test are pure neutral albums i.e. Beethoven's Fifth from the Vienna  Symphony or Dark Side of the Moon. It needs to as flat as in the studio for it to be considered reference grade on those albums from mine and other serious audiophiles. 

 

Also female vocals are not in the 2-3khz region that's wrong. Female vocals are actually from 2khz to about 10khz currently or mid and high trebles. If you want some examples in the mid treble, then look into Joni Mitchell's Blue like California or Carole King's Tapestry. 

 

Also  for subbass, or bass slam rumble is not what your looking for.  You want:

a) flat as an audiobook no rolloff

b) no mid bleed in

c) speed

If you really wanted to test that and the LCD2s do this far,far better than lower class headphones even the HD650s is 90s Grudge. For that Alice in Chain's Dirt is excellent. 

 

There are other know tests in audiophile circles that are far,far more demanding and easy to test differences than pop. The fact he goes on about Hotel California shows he's not really been around the reference grade circles.