The open source alternative to my sponsor

[rlaphoenix]

3 minutes ago, Takumidesh said:

none of this is unethical or piracy in any way.

 

They made open source software, other people forked it.

 

from the GPL license preamble:

edit: jellyfin ofcourse, is also GPL licensed, due to the copyleft nature of the license.

Regardless it's goal was to take away profit from Emby. It literally started out as nothing more than a removal of license checks.

[rlaphoenix]

Emby vs. Plex - purely on video streaming, not UI, UX, features (HD vs UHD HDR10->SDR)

(can you guess which was the 4K file?)

 

Look how infinitely slower Plex becomes. This behavior is not a one-off chance or miracle for the recording. This happens constantly and has happened for years. I've brought it up with Plex many times. Something to do with however Emby buffers and allocates that buffer is just magical sauce. Actual magic.

On Android TV (with Ethernet) this problem for 4K content gets even worse. That 4K isnt even Blu-ray quality by the way, it's transcoded to be about half the size. Playing this on the Android TV would buffer every 10s taking like 40-60s to load another 5s of playback. It would also always start playing at 720p or such, because it's initial loading test assumes it would fail, based on premature tests. On Emby however, it would play incredibly smooth. No initial transcoding to 720x480p 200kbps, no nonsense. It simply works.

I've tested Emby vs. Jellyfin just about 2 years ago now and found a similar story, however, Jellyfin actually performed worse for me than even Plex. It would constantly play at 480p max for a 4K movie and if I tried even getting 720p, no luck! It would buffer, pause, and I even had keyframe corruptions. An absolute mess.

[Takumidesh]

7 minutes ago, rlaphoenix said:

Regardless it's goal was to take away profit from Emby. It literally started out as nothing more than a removal of license checks.

The Emby devs knew from the very beginning the moment they chose to license the software with GPL, that this is a) likely to happen, b) a legally protected act, and c) adhering to a core tenant of the very license they chose to use.

 

Again from the GPL license:

Quote

We protect your rights with two steps: (1) copyright the software, and (2) offer you this license which gives you legal permission to copy, distribute and/or modify the software.

 

if you distribute copies of such a program, whether gratis or for a fee, you must give the recipients all the rights that you have.

 

To protect your rights, we need to make restrictions that forbid anyone to deny you these rights or to ask you to surrender the rights.

edit: btw, it is likely the reason emby used GPL in the first place was because they themselves more than likely used other GPL licensed software.

Its just how software development works, its a core ideology.

[rlaphoenix]

 

 

Emby vs. Plex - the skip intro button experience (on a 30s intro at the very beginning of episodes)

 

As you can see on Emby (apart from the first episode), the Skip Intro button is buttery smooth. The first episode did not work only because I clicked resume which basically started just after the Skip Intro buttons marker to show up. That could be improved though. Also notice how long videos are taking to begin playing, how long it takes between pressing next, and such compared to each other.

 

Emby is an out right winner in terms of both smooth streaming and a consistent Skip Intro experience.

 

[Akti]

Hey guys

 

I hate to be that guy but does anyone have a link to a, for lack of a better word, user friendly guide on how to set this up? dont get me wrong, what the video says is true, to set up the server, you only need a basic understanding of file systems. But from the way the whole thing was presented, i would have expected that i can indeed access my media remotely, as that is all everyone ever talks about when talking about these products.

 

I can follow a guide just fine but all the information i found so far basically suggests that "if i have to ask how to do that, good luck noob" which is a little disheartening after hearing that it is supposedly easy to setup.

[Martinspire]

I second the remark that Linus should try Emby as well. I think it matches his requirements and is a better alternative to Plex rather than Jellyfin.

 

I also had issues streaming with Plex on my intel 9100 machine and have no issue with emby. Plus the apps are solid, downloads work (for me) and the cost is doable.

 

Yes the community is smaller, the 3rd party support is less but its pretty fully featured on its own and the out-of-box experience is good. My parents (who aren't that tech savvy) use it every day remotely. The only thing I dislike is that it takes too long to sync out-of-sync subtitles and its different on every platform, but I doubt Linus has that issue with him or his kids. I wish Emby supported keyboards on some platforms and allowed for shortcuts that way. But alas, its still the best I've tried and still works great after 1 year of premium

[Takumidesh]

31 minutes ago, rlaphoenix said:

Emby vs. Plex - the skip intro button experience (on a 30s intro at the very beginning of episodes)

Had plex analyzed those videos yet? the skip button generally works pretty well for me on plex.

I would be interested to see more comparisons like this!

 

I agree that the video does seem to start faster, would be cool to see verbose logging between the two and see what causes that. Are you running both servers on the same hardware?

 

EDIT: looking at the emby site, do they really charge for the ability to backup your server configuration? or is that just for a cloud backup?

 

[DarkSwordsman]

1 hour ago, rlaphoenix said:

Yes! And it's a shame every youtuber acts like it's not. Here's an official statement by Emby aluding to piracy as the reason:https://emby.media/community/index.php?/topic/64825-with-3530-emby-is-no-longer-open-source/&do=findComment&comment=643574

Is there a source that isn't Emby themselves? The long-running knowledge is that Emby was going closed-source and requiring license payments, so Jellyfin was created from the last open-source fork of Emby. "Piracy" is a really tall claim and doesn't make sense if Jellyfin has been and is still running fine on GitHub. If "piracy" was true, Emby should have submitted a DMCA takedown years ago.

[rlaphoenix]

12 minutes ago, Takumidesh said:

Had plex analyzed those videos yet? the skip button generally works pretty well for me on plex.

I would be interested to see more comparisons like this!

 

I agree that the video does seem to start faster, would be cool to see verbose logging between the two and see what causes that. Are you running both servers on the same hardware?

 

EDIT: looking at the emby site, do they really charge for the ability to backup your server configuration? or is that just for a cloud backup?

 

Plex has in fact analyzed them yes. I dont know entirely why Plex isnt showing the button. I can agree it usually works well enough too, but I have experienced this every now and then. Usually with intros at the very start of episodes.

I cant really be bothered to do any logging right now, but my best guess is plex is making the buffer size too much relative to the bitrate. E.g., 1000 kbps for a 10 second buffer would be loading 10 MiB before the video starts. That's considerably more than you may think at first. Yet, however, I also believe that Emby has smoother streaming because it uses a larger buffer to Plex. Yet obviously that's a bit contradictory. Perhaps Emby uses a small initial buffer, then a larger buffer after the initial play.

And yes, sadly they do require the pass to backup and restore with the plugin, but you can always just do the Plex method of copy/pasting the folders and it works just as well. The only difference here is Plex has no one-click backup/restore nor a schedule (full) backup option.

[rlaphoenix]

6 minutes ago, DarkSwordsman said:

Is there a source that isn't Emby themselves? The long-running knowledge is that Emby was going closed-source and requiring license payments, so Jellyfin was created from the last open-source fork of Emby. "Piracy" is a really tall claim and doesn't make sense if Jellyfin has been and is still running fine on GitHub. If "piracy" was true, Emby should have submitted a DMCA takedown years ago.

Just google around, it's talked about. I'm not trying to make this up. If you ever worked in sales in a Software environment you would understand the situation way easier. Software piracy is incredibly rampant. Arguably more rampant than game piracy.

 

Allowing an option to get your software for free, blatantly gives people the argument that it's endorsed or they are okay with it. it's the same reason copyright and trademarks have to be upheld, just like Linus once stated in regards to the Lenovo Legion logo a while back.

[DarkSwordsman]

10 minutes ago, rlaphoenix said:

Just google around, it's talked about. I'm not trying to make this up. If you ever worked in sales in a Software environment you would understand the situation way easier. Software piracy is incredibly rampant. Arguably more rampant than game piracy.

 

Allowing an option to get your software for free, blatantly gives people the argument that it's endorsed or they are okay with it. it's the same reason copyright and trademarks have to be upheld, just like Linus once stated in regards to the Lenovo Legion logo a while back.

But it is not software piracy if it was licensed under GPL

 

If Jellyfin forked from their last GPL version and managed to make a better overall product, Emby is SOL. Emby decided to be open source and then later tried to make profit after they realized how profitable it could be. Jellyfin did not pirate anything, and it is Emby's own fault if they are complaining about Jellyfin being a better product. There is nothing against forking a GPL library, and there is nothing against companies making similar features as other products, as long as they aren't violating any actual copyright or trademark.

If Emby is actually a better product, then it should show through people using it and recommending it. I can't remember anyone in recent history recommending Emby. If you suggest people to use Emby, then talk about why Emby is good without putting other software down. But don't pretend like Jellyfin pirated something from Emby when they didn't.

[Takumidesh]

9 minutes ago, rlaphoenix said:

Plex has in fact analyzed them yes. I dont know entirely why Plex isnt showing the button. I can agree it usually works well enough too, but I have experienced this every now and then. Usually with intros at the very start of episodes.

I cant really be bothered to do any logging right now, but my best guess is plex is making the buffer size too much relative to the bitrate. E.g., 1000 kbps for a 10 second buffer would be loading 10 MiB before the video starts. That's considerably more than you may think at first. Yet, however, I also believe that Emby has smoother streaming because it uses a larger buffer to Plex. Yet obviously that's a bit contradictory. Perhaps Emby uses a small initial buffer, then a larger buffer after the initial play.

And yes, sadly they do require the pass to backup and restore with the plugin, but you can always just do the Plex method of copy/pasting the folders and it works just as well. The only difference here is Plex has no one-click backup/restore nor a schedule (full) backup option.

You have me curious now to do some benchmarks with all three.

 

8 minutes ago, rlaphoenix said:

Just google around, it's talked about. I'm not trying to make this up. If you ever worked in sales in a Software environment you would understand the situation way easier. Software piracy is incredibly rampant. Arguably more rampant than game piracy.

I understand where you are coming from with this, but it really is not piracy in the slightest. There is no ethical or moral quandary at all. forking an open source product because the main repository is going in a different direction is a core philosophy of open source software and software development in general.

 

Kodi is a fork of XBMC, basically every linux distribution is a fork of a fork of a fork. PGP was forked to get around oppressive US software export laws. FreeBSD, Postgres, Huge softwares that are used by millions.

 

If anything it is antithetical to the core idea of FOSS to create a FOSS project and then later change it to closed source.

[rlaphoenix]

47 minutes ago, Akti said:

Hey guys

 

I hate to be that guy but does anyone have a link to a, for lack of a better word, user friendly guide on how to set this up? dont get me wrong, what the video says is true, to set up the server, you only need a basic understanding of file systems. But from the way the whole thing was presented, i would have expected that i can indeed access my media remotely, as that is all everyone ever talks about when talking about these products.

 

I can follow a guide just fine but all the information i found so far basically suggests that "if i have to ask how to do that, good luck noob" which is a little disheartening after hearing that it is supposedly easy to setup.

You need to go to the "Network" settings (https://app.emby.media/#!/network) and choose "Allow remote connections to this Emby server.". Take note of the Local and Public http and https port numbers (should be same for local/public). You likely don't have HTTPS enabled which is OK, but do keep in mind the port does differ if you use HTTPS, if you ever plan to set that up.

The next thing you need to do is go to your Router's Admin Gateway and set up TCP port forwarding for the public HTTP port. Once you do that if you enter `http://<your ip>:<public http port>` you will be brought to the login page to your Server. From here it's the case of setting up DDNS so that you can link your IP to a host that wont change. IPs change all the time therefore giving people your IP to connect to will stop working very quickly. Therefore if you set up a DDNS software it will send a server your IP whenever its changed and the hostname will always send people to your up to date IP.

I recommend No-IP as one of the biggest and oldest around that have been reliable and fair on the free plan. It's nice for me as well because my router supports it baked into the router software, so I dont ever need to do anything or run any software, the router handles it for me after logging into my No-IP account.

[DarkSwordsman]

1 minute ago, rlaphoenix said:

You need to go to the "Network" settings (https://app.emby.media/#!/network)...

I am assuming they asked for help on Jellyfin... not Emby.

[rlaphoenix]

2 minutes ago, DarkSwordsman said:

But it is not software piracy if it was licensed under GPL

 

If Jellyfin forked from their last GPL version and managed to make a better overall product, Emby is SOL. Emby decided to be open source and then later tried to make profit after they realized how profitable it could be. Jellyfin did not pirate anything, and it is Emby's own fault if they are complaining about Jellyfin being a better product. There is nothing against forking a GPL library, and there is nothing against companies making similar features as other products, as long as they aren't violating any actual copyright or trademark.

They lifted the entire base product developed over years, removed Emby's way of getting profit for their work, and did nothing else FOR AGES. Before suddenly realising they need to be different to not be considered a piracy software.

 

I don't care in relation to it forking or being licensed or whatever. The principle is that it was developed to remove profit from Emby. Emby licensed under GPL but does that mean anything? No, Emby still lost profit. Jellyfin is different now to what it was originally not that long ago which is my point this whole time. It's only feature was no paywall not that long ago. That's why I dont like it.

Also it's not a better product at all.

[rlaphoenix]

1 minute ago, DarkSwordsman said:

I am assuming they asked for help on Jellyfin... not Emby.

Because its essentially lifted code..., the steps are the same... I wonder why...

[rlaphoenix]

The DMCA argument also doesnt work under the Hydra effect. DMCA one repo and another two appear. Their best choice was to stop spoonfeeding jellyfin code.

[Takumidesh]

Just now, rlaphoenix said:

Emby licensed under GPL but does that mean anything?

Actually It means everything. GPL is a very very specific license used and propagated with strict copyleft ideologies. It is about the worst license you could use if you wanted your software to be for profit only

 

[rlaphoenix]

11 minutes ago, Takumidesh said:

You have me curious now to do some benchmarks with all three.

 

I understand where you are coming from with this, but it really is not piracy in the slightest. There is no ethical or moral quandary at all. forking an open source product because the main repository is going in a different direction is a core philosophy of open source software and software development in general.

 

Kodi is a fork of XBMC, basically every linux distribution is a fork of a fork of a fork. PGP was forked to get around oppressive US software export laws. FreeBSD, Postgres, Huge softwares that are used by millions.

 

If anything it is antithetical to the core idea of FOSS to create a FOSS project and then later change it to closed source.

I implore you to give it a test!

 

As for your argument about "the main repository is going in a different direction" is invalid. I'm comparing original jellyfin vs. final emby repo. Where jellyfin's only feature was piracy of Emby. How is that transformative.

 

Jellyfin Now, vs. Emby Now, is still marginally piracy as it has unlocked pre-existing features Emby had locked. As for comparing them as better products, Emby far beats it.

 

Also XBMC is not a fork. Kodi is XBMC.

[DarkSwordsman]

Just now, rlaphoenix said:

They lifted the entire base product developed over years...

Which is not illegal because it was GPL.

Just now, rlaphoenix said:

...removed Emby's way of getting profit for their work...

Which would be a problem if the copyright was infringed... which it wasn't... because it is a GPL license.

1 minute ago, rlaphoenix said:

...and did nothing else FOR AGES

...so?

1 minute ago, rlaphoenix said:

Before suddenly realising they need to be different to not be considered a piracy software.

Context? What did they change? Did they actually do this? I am not sure how they would need to do anything if they made their code from a GPL codebase.

2 minutes ago, rlaphoenix said:

I don't care in relation to it forking or being licensed or whatever.

Well you should, because that's how the law works.

2 minutes ago, rlaphoenix said:

The principle is that it was developed to remove profit from Emby.

Proof? Evidence? You're making claims here, when really: Emby was FOSS, and people like FOSS. So when Emby was no longer FOSS, someone made a FOSS product from their FOSS library.

3 minutes ago, rlaphoenix said:

Emby licensed under GPL but does that mean anything? No, Emby still lost profit.

YES! IT DOES! GPL license means that, for the most part, the software is free and open source. Anyone can copy it, redistribute it, and above all: create derivative works.
https://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0.html

Spoiler

 

7 minutes ago, rlaphoenix said:

Jellyfin is different now to what it was originally not that long ago which is my point this whole time. It's only feature was no paywall not that long ago. That's why I dont like it.

You not liking something =/= it is infringing on the copyright or license of the original work.

You should really separate your useless emotions from law. It makes you look silly.

[Takumidesh]

Just now, rlaphoenix said:

Also XBMC is not a fork. Kodi is XBMC.

fair.

Just now, rlaphoenix said:

As for your argument about "the main repository is going in a different direction" is invalid. I'm comparing original jellyfin vs. final emby repo. Where jellyfin's only feature was piracy of Emby. How is that transformative.

You keep mentioning piracy. but The Emby developers gave the right away to every person when they attached the GPL license to their software. They actively and consciously made the decision to allow people to modify the software as they please. there is no piracy, it is not possible, literally, it isn't possible to pirate the software. It is completely within the right of the user to strip all licensing checks and requirements away from the software and the EFF would defend the user in court on that regard.

 

With GPL, I can download the source code and do literally whatever I want with it in any form and if I don't redistribute it I don't have to tell anyone I did it.

 

If I do redistribute it I only need to comply with GPL. which actively encourages the behavior that you are describing as piracy.

 

 

[DarkSwordsman]

8 minutes ago, rlaphoenix said:

Jellyfin Now, vs. Emby Now, is still marginally piracy as it has unlocked pre-existing features Emby had locked

I am not sure how Jellyfin can "unlock" features on Emby when it is a forked software that implemented their own features.

By this logic, Jellyfin's free hardware transcoding and mobile downloading infringes on the profits that Plex could otherwise get.

[rlaphoenix]

We will need to agree to disagree. I cannot agree. At the end of the day people used it it to have the same features as Emby Premiere, for free, with no differences other than repository.

 

GPL aside, that was the project's original goal. It still has everything unlocked but at least now it's transformative and has features. How funny is it that they don't have any feature Emby main doesn't have, that's done better.

 

I understand GPL is FOSS, I'm a developer myself. I think you guys are just looking past the small text and not looking at the ethics of it. You say there's nothing ethically wrong, but when the option was pay for emby premiere or download jellyfin for free to get the exact same product, then your looking at an unethical option. Either pay for emby or get the software for free. It's cut and dry.

[rlaphoenix]

1 minute ago, DarkSwordsman said:

I am not sure how Jellyfin can "unlock" features on Emby when it is a forked software that implemented their own features.

By this logic, Jellyfin's free hardware transcoding and mobile downloading infringes on the profits that Plex could otherwise get.

Because they were locked with Emby Premiere license checks...

[DarkSwordsman]

15 minutes ago, rlaphoenix said:

I think you guys are just looking past the small text and not looking at the ethics of it

Ethics of what? If anything, people are still upset with Emby because they went closed-source and started to require payment. It's a classic situation of people taking advantage of the FOSS community to make a decent product, and then taking it and turning it into their own, closed-source derivative that costs money.

15 minutes ago, rlaphoenix said:

...when the option was pay for emby premiere or download jellyfin for free to get the exact same product, then your looking at an unethical option

Your logic is that its unethical to make a similar product for cheaper or free to another product.

15 minutes ago, rlaphoenix said:

Either pay for emby or get the software for free.

Jellyfin is not Emby anymore. Again, your logic is that Emby and Jellyfin are probably stealing profits from Plex too.

15 minutes ago, rlaphoenix said:

Because they were locked with Emby Premiere license checks...

Were the Emby license checks before or after their GPL repository?

 

  

15 minutes ago, rlaphoenix said:

We will need to agree to disagree. I cannot agree.

Well, good thing the law exists and we don't have to consult you first before determining copyright and piracy.