If Linux hurts; you're probably doing it wrong (PC's)

[AlphaObeisance]

I'm curious as to why so many people have so much trouble utilizing Linux. 

I suspect it's mostly due to ignorance (that's not an insult, as ignorance is merely an unknowing). As I sat back and read these forums the reoccurring theme that I seemed to see was that people simply don't understand how Linux works. 

We've got people in here complaining that something isn't working, and blaming their Desktop Environment (i.e. GNOME/KDE/XFCE ect) as if it's somehow got anything to do with your drivers or operating system at all. 

Lets say you installed Pop!_OS, but for whatever reason your displays aren't functioning properly. It has nothing to do with Pop!_OS and more likely that you insatlled the wrong ISO (Pop has AMD/Nvidia specific ISO's) that does not contain the appropriate drivers for your distribution. Alternatively, maybe you opted for "Open Source" drivers instead of "Proprietary" drivers.

In my experience, the Open Source drivers always require a more user technical approach in modification in order to get the drivers to function as intended. I care not to waste my time trying to fix public code when Proprietary drivers have functioned out the box for me every time on both AMD and Nvidia systems. This is a controversial topic within the Linux community but it's not something I'm going to hash out here; as I'm merely speaking on behalf of my own personal experiences on various machines. 

EDIT: I will note that I 100% refuse to utilize Wayland. Indeed, I run into issues every time I try. Sadly, Wayland is default on many systems, and there's not a lot of clarification on how to get set up on X11. I 100% recommend utilizing X11 for stability purposes. But do note, Wayland is on course to replace X11 eventually; it's just a bit too young to compete in terms of stability with many hardware configurations.

Unless you're installing Linux with some offshoot distro, or trying to use dated hardware, there really shouldn't be any difficulty utilizing Linux. It should just work out the box post installation. I will note that I've seen more people have issues with Laptops than Desktop PC's; but I credit that to the fact laptops have quite different hardware. That said, I know little about Laptops as I have little regard for them. 

I'm not sharing these thoughts in an attempt to make anyone feel less about their experience; in fact quite the opposite. I would merely suggest that newcomers to Linux utilize a mainstream plug and play distro like Pop!_OS if you favor Ubuntu, or Manjaro if you favor Arch based systems. Ensure you select "Proprietary Drivers" upon installation and enjoy the experience from there on. 

EDIT: I highly recommend this for those who wish to do gaming of any kind on Linux. While Linux recently got full Anti-Cheat support across all of the mainstream Anti-Cheat developers; we are still waiting on these features to be enabled in many of the MMO/Multiplayer online games. Therefore, while many games you CAN play online with others, most of your competitive games are still unsupported. That said, for those who enjoy single player experiences, your library of compatible games is VAST. I personally play Halo (even infinite) on my system without issue =) so options are not as scarce as many lead to believe. Seek https://www.protondb.com for a list of currently compatible games and the progress reports for those not yet supported.

A short list of some games I've played personally online/coop
World of Warcraft
Halo: Infinite
Halo: The Master Chief Collection}
Borderlands 3
Borderlands 2
Borderlands
No Man's Sky
Red Dead Online
Way of the Hunter
Battlefield 4
State of Decay 2
Divinity: Original Sin 2
DOOM Eternal
Risk of Rain 2
Terraria
ARMA
Dying LIght
GRIM Dawn
Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Wildlands


I'm not so ignorant as to deny that people run into issues beyond a mere incorrect drivers issue; but in the 3 years of operating Linux I have never had any issues that were not self inflicted. Of those issues, they only occurred when utilizing DIY distro's like Vanilla Arch, where it was my responsibility to ensure I had all the appropriate drivers. 

I wish ya'll luck in your Linux Endeavors. For those with a thirst for knowledge, I definitely encourage you check out the Arch Wiki (regardless of distro, it will help you 100% as it breaks down fundamentals mutual across all distro's) at https://wiki.archlinux.org/ 

Good luck
AO

[10leej]

Honestly the complaints here are proof there's a UX problem that people are either ignoring or intentionally dodging.

[AlphaObeisance]

7 minutes ago, 10leej said:

Honestly the complaints here are proof there's a UX problem that people are either ignoring or intentionally dodging.

How vague of you ? I'd address these "problems" as best I can provided I have, or can obtain the knowledge to do so. 

I'm open to discussion. I've edited my post to include some of my personal experiences. Primarily aimed at the wave of newcomers who are seeking to use Linux after the release of the Steam Deck.

[tikker]

43 minutes ago, AlphaObeisance said:

I'm curious as to why so many people have so much trouble utilizing Linux. 

Simply because it's not be all end all that it's continuously put forward to be and has its own target audience. People need to stop trying to convert everyone to Linux.

 

43 minutes ago, AlphaObeisance said:

I suspect it's mostly due to ignorance (that's not an insult, as ignorance is merely an unknowing). As I sat back and read these forums the reoccurring theme that I seemed to see was that people simply don't understand how Linux works. 

There are two sides to this coin. On one side, yes, people will need to learn something new. On the other side, however, people grossly exaggerate how simple the switch from e.g. Windows to Linux is. Certain software simply does not support linux, which is a big deal. There are genuine experience issues. Answers like "yeah you can do X" are still too often followed by "if you do Y, Z, W" or "just type xyz" in the terminal. The vocal linux advocates ignore how complicated, and more importantly, effort that is to the average person.

43 minutes ago, AlphaObeisance said:

Lets say you installed Pop!_OS, but for whatever reason your displays aren't functioning properly. It has nothing to do with Pop!_OS and more likely that you insatlled the wrong ISO (Pop has AMD/Nvidia specific ISO's) that does not contain the appropriate drivers for your distribution. Alternatively, maybe you opted for "Open Source" drivers instead of "Proprietary" drivers.

That's exactly one of those "you just need..." problems and your following paragraph elaborates on that. In Windows or mac these things just work. Yes, you'll have to mess with drivers from time to time, but in Windows that's a couple of clicks to get an installer and you're off. Having to worry about whether you are using open source or proprietary drivers is not user friendly. If linux wants to compete, it needs to "just work" to at least the same level as the other two big ones.

43 minutes ago, AlphaObeisance said:

Unless you're installing Linux with some offshoot distro, or trying to use dated hardware, there really shouldn't be any difficulty utilizing Linux. It should just work out the box post installation. I will note that I've seen more people have issues with Laptops than Desktop PC's; but I credit that to the fact laptops have quite different hardware. That said, I know little about Laptops as I have little regard for them. 

Linux can be a pain in the ass even with mainstream distros. Take Linus' experience with that linux laptop on ShortCircuit, recently. Out of the box it gave random errors that made no sense. There even was a topic on this forum going "that's just Ubuntu", well it shouldn't be. Then there was the "Steam incident" where in their Linux as a daily driver challenge apt decided that installing Steam required breaking the entire system by removing a boat load of essential packages. That's not even to mention Wayland, which was a nightmare when distros first switched to it and which some apps still do not / can not fully support (looking at you Teams, when am I getting screen share?).

43 minutes ago, AlphaObeisance said:

EDIT: I highly recommend this for those who wish to do gaming of any kind on Linux. While Linux recently got full Anti-Cheat support across all of the mainstream Anti-Cheat developers; we are still waiting on these features to be enabled in many of the MMO/Multiplayer online games. Therefore, while many games you CAN play online with others, most of your competitive games are still unsupported. That said, for those who enjoy single player experiences, your library of compatible games is VAST. I personally play Halo (even infinite) on my system without issue =) so options are not as scarce as many lead to believe. Seek www.protondb.com for a list of currently compatible games and the progress reports for those not yet supported.

As good as this is, and we should definitely praise the big list of compatible games, it is still a genuine user-experience issue that you even need to think about having to check a list to see if your OS can even run that game, because again on Windows "it just works".

43 minutes ago, AlphaObeisance said:

I guess an "I use Arch btw" was inevitable.

 

It's a two-sided and also circular problem. Users will need to accept that it's different and that they need to learn a lot of things, but mainstream software should also care more about proper Linux support. As long as industry standards do not support it simply misses a crucial usability aspect. Then people won't use it, because their needed or favourite software doesn't run, developers don't support it because few people use it etc.

[AlphaObeisance]

3 minutes ago, tikker said:

Simply because it's not be all end all that it's continuously put forward to be and has its own target audience. People need to stop trying to convert everyone to Linux.

ect. ect.

Trust, just because I use Arch doesn't imply that I share the seeming "superiority" complex that created the cliche "I use Arch...BTW". Arch is not some form of superior distro; it just requires you read a wiki and follow directions and literally anybody can do it. And I certainly didn't start here, nor would I recommend anybody pick Arch as their first distro. 

I had to edit my post to include that all of my systems run AMD cpu's and a variety of GPU's including AMD/Nvidia. I have zero experience with Intel, and those who speak against Linux, or at least downplay it's compatibility is seemingly coming from those utilizing Intel CPU's. Which is fair. 

If you're utilizing an Intel system and running into issues; I just have to take your word for it. 

I did edit my post before your response in regards to encouraging folks avoid Wayland, and spoke on the fact that many distro's shamefully implemented Wayland out the gate. As stable as my system is, it's ONLY because I use X11. That said, Pop!_OS and Manjaro both worked "out the box" on my AMD CPU systems, and gaming wasn't even about "checking to see if they work", I just installed them and they worked. That said, I do not do competitive gaming so my library of recent competitive or online games is meek at best. Though I was able to pay Halo Infinite on release week without issues. 

I do not deny that Linux has it's shortcomings despite how many leaps and bounds it's made over the past few years. I feel for Intel users if ya'll really don't have any distro's that just work. I'm curious now if it's merely that AMD offers better compatibility. 

I'm not trying to convert anybody, and have no desire too. My intent here is merely to encourage those that genuinely want to utilize something other than Windows. 

My personal experience, has abosolutely been 100% plug and play. Steam just worked, my games just worked. I replaced Photoshop with Krita and kept on rolling. Davinci Resolve provides Linux support for content creation, OBS Studio's got Native Linux support for streaming, VLC's got Native support for streaming media and Libre Office replaced Microsoft Office Suites and I never noticed a difference. 

[tikker]

10 minutes ago, AlphaObeisance said:

I had to edit my post to include that all of my systems run AMD cpu's and a variety of GPU's including AMD/Nvidia. I have zero experience with Intel, and those who speak against Linux, or at least downplay it's compatibility is seemingly coming from those utilizing Intel CPU's. Which is fair. 

If you're utilizing an Intel system and running into issues; I just have to take your word for it. 

This might be down to AMD having a history with using open source stuff IIRC. I wasn't really referring to compatability in that sense though. My laptop is Intel and with Fedora it has been a good plug-and-play experience for the most. I use compute clusters that are all AMD and they are also generally fine. I meant it more in the way that fixing stuff is generally more involved or that other things can be just poorly supported, like the fingerprint sensor in my laptop that doesn't work due to the lack of drivers and interest in making them from the manufacturer.

18 minutes ago, AlphaObeisance said:

I did edit my post before your response in regards to encouraging folks avoid Wayland, and spoke on the fact that many distro's shamefully implemented Wayland out the gate. As stable as my system is, it's ONLY because I use X11. That said, Pop!_OS and Manjaro both worked "out the box" on my AMD CPU systems, and gaming wasn't even about "checking to see if they work", I just installed them and they worked. That said, I do not do competitive gaming so my library of recent competitive or online games is meek at best. Though I was able to pay Halo Infinite on release week without issues. 

Which is a shame, because this is how we get stuck with half-baked new stuff that cannot fully replace the old stuff. It's also not purely exclusive to Linux. In my eyes it's similar to Microsoft not putting much effort in completely harmonising their UI changes through all their menus, for example. Sure the new settings screens are nicer looking, but if I still need to go find the old settings menus to actually get to the setting I need it's not great. It has come a long way over the 10 or so years I've used it, but it's just not fully there yet in my opinion.

24 minutes ago, AlphaObeisance said:

My personal experience, has abosolutely been 100% plug and play. Steam just worked, my games just worked. I replaced Photoshop with Krita and kept on rolling. Davinci Resolve provides Linux support for content creation, OBS Studio's got Native Linux support for streaming, VLC's got Native support for streaming media and Libre Office replaced Microsoft Office Suites and I never noticed a difference. 

Some alternatives can be capable, but I find most still lacking. I'm not having gripes with things that have native support. Just things like Office, Addobe's suite etc. that do not support it. Even the more capable alternatives don't quite do it in the end. Especially Photoshop. I just haven't found a satisfying replacement for it. It's probably a bit paradoxical wanting not-something to be that something, but I think the Linux community would definitely benefit in terms of software from getting some big names behind it.

[Sauron]

The core of the issue is that people expect Linux to work like Windows. Most people have learned to use computers with Windows and assume some things are just inherent to computing when instead they come from Windows design decisions. When they install a Linux distribution and things work differently then they feel like they're dealing with bad design or obscure functionality that they can't be expected to know - of course, you can't just know how things work if you've never seen them but that's not a problem with the system itself. Windows is not much more intuitive to use, it just feels like it is because that's what people are used to. You were probably taught more or less how it works as a kid by your parents whereas with Linux you're likely on your own. It's like expecting to be immediately able to ski because you already know how to skate; skiing isn't necessarily harder than skating but it's different and if you only know how to skate it will take some learning.

 

This problem is not aided by the idea, cultivated in large part by youtubers, that Linux is or ought to be a drop in replacement for Windows for videogames. Linux is not Windows-but-free and showcasing it as a gaming platform draws in the "wrong" kind of crowd, meaning the crowd that just wants to play videogames and isn't looking to have a hard time doing so; while you can play games with decent results on Linux it's hardly its strong suit and you just end up with people thinking it's a bad system when they're only looking at the thing it does worst.

1 hour ago, 10leej said:

Honestly the complaints here are proof there's a UX problem that people are either ignoring or intentionally dodging.

Is there? When people complain about Linux it's usually something along the lines of "I was trying to get this windows software working, pasted a bunch of commands I don't understand in the terminal and it still doesn't work, Linux sucks". Or, it's someone having issues with specific hardware, which isn't great but also doesn't really speak to the general experience; the only solution there is to just support all hardware in existence, which is not only hard but sometimes impossible due to manufacturers not releasing drivers or the tools to write them.

 

Other times it's people trying dual boots, KVM, or other weird system configurations that are more prone to problems if you don't know what you're doing, which also goes for other operating systems. Just browse the Linux section here, you won't find much that actually relates to UX or clearly points to a problem that could be solved with better UI design or distro development.

 

These sorts of discussions are rarely productive because there isn't really much that can be done to address the problems people actually have with Linux; it's either out of the hands of Linux developers or impossible to meaningfully simplify.

1 hour ago, tikker said:

Then there was the "Steam incident" where in their Linux as a daily driver challenge apt decided that installing Steam required breaking the entire system by removing a boat load of essential packages.

That was a problem with repository maintenance which speaks more to issues with system76/popOS than it does to Linux as a whole. In fact I think popOS is the wrong system to recommend to complete novices, it's not as used as Ubuntu meaning specific guides are harder to find and it comes with systemd-boot which is harder to work with than GRUB. It makes sense in the context where it was born, i.e. integrated on system76 computers where they install it for you and make sure there are no compatibility problems, and that's about it.

 

It's also worth noting that, to this day, if you want to install Steam (and most other things) on Windows you need to go fishing online for an installer. If people weren't so used to it it would be considered horrible UX and also quite unsafe as it exposes you to phishing and malware - yet I never hear people complain about Windows because they accidentally installed malware while downloading random installers. The repository system is one of the best features of Linux distributions and what happened to Linus was certainly the exception rather than the rule.

[AlphaObeisance]

24 minutes ago, tikker said:

This might be down to AMD having a history with using open source stuff IIRC. I wasn't really referring to compatability in that sense though. My laptop is Intel and with Fedora it has been a good plug-and-play experience for the most. I use compute clusters that are all AMD and they are also generally fine. I meant it more in the way that fixing stuff is generally more involved or that other things can be just poorly supported, like the fingerprint sensor in my laptop that doesn't work due to the lack of drivers and interest in making them from the manufacturer.

 

 
Ect.

 

I should probably look into formatting quotes like you do; I haven't used a forum in years so I'm pretty ignorant on how to address things in quotes like you do lol. 

That said. I'm enjoying this conversation and your willingess to discuss things the way that you are. And I agree in regards to much of what you say. 

I was a Photoshop junkie, and at first I was really discouraged, even though I did manage to get it working pretty well with WINE; but ultimately it wasn't until I sat down on a day off and spent the day learning how to use Krita. It's got it's shortcomings, but all in all I've adapted very well. Totally understand the bitter sweetness of having to abandon Photoshop though. 

I also miss having control of my RGB that shamefully came with my hardware. ICUE and AURA support would be nice; thankfully Razer has support, so I was able to get rid of the fruity color changing that come with it lol. Bit duped on the water cooler, GPU and MB though. So please don't take my fondness for Linux come off as it being "flawless". I've had to make minor sacrifices of convenience in areas that I personally forget about until I discuss them like this.  

I just want people who are genuinely and sincerely interested in making Linux their primary OS to feel encouraged. I figure Linux is so niche that if someone's looking to install it, they've had to have done some amount of homework to figure out how to get a boot drive installed, and boot into the stick to install; which in and of itself was the most technical part of switching to Linux. So I figure if they're that resourceful; they must want it enough to do a bit of homework. And if they're willing to do homework; I figure the amount of effort required to find the resolutions is less than that of installation, so those who want it will make it work. 

I've argued with long time Linux veterans about how easy Linux is to use; but I've been repeatedly told that my linux experience is literally an anomaly of sorts in that I've encountered none of the mainstream issues I've read about on the web. I consider myself fortunate. Just hope some day people can experience it as smoothly as I do. 

[tikker]

12 minutes ago, Sauron said:

That was a problem with repository maintenance which speaks more to issues with system76/popOS than it does to Linux as a whole. In fact I think popOS is the wrong system to recommend to complete novices, it's not as used as Ubuntu meaning specific guides are harder to find and it comes with systemd-boot which is harder to work with than GRUB. It makes sense in the context where it was born, i.e. integrated on system76 computers where they install it for you and make sure there are no compatibility problems, and that's about it.

That's true, it wasn't really a Linux issue. I've never had Windows nuke the system through a broken update, but maybe it has happened more often than I'm aware of.

12 minutes ago, Sauron said:

 

It's also worth noting that, to this day, if you want to install Steam (and most other things) on Windows you need to go fishing online for an installer. If people weren't so used to it it would be considered horrible UX and also quite unsafe as it exposes you to phishing and malware - yet I never hear people complain about Windows because they accidentally installed malware while downloading random installers. The repository system is one of the best features of Linux distributions and what happened to Linus was certainly the exception rather than the rule.

Do you? If I go to Steam's homepage it's two clicks to get an installer: "install Steam" (which admittedly is a rather unconspicuous green button at the top) and then again a big button that says "Install Steam", which downloads the setup. I am a fan of the repository system as well. I can't deny it helps security.

11 minutes ago, AlphaObeisance said:

I should probably look into formatting quotes like you do; I haven't used a forum in years so I'm pretty ignorant on how to address things in quotes like you do lol

Drag-select the text you want to quote and a pop up saying "Quote selection" should appear (can be a little hit or miss).

11 minutes ago, AlphaObeisance said:

I was a Photoshop junkie, and at first I was really discouraged, even though I did manage to get it working pretty well with WINE; but ultimately it wasn't until I sat down on a day off and spent the day learning how to use Krita. It's got it's shortcomings, but all in all I've adapted very well. Totally understand the bitter sweetness of having to abandon Photoshop though. 

This issue extends to Windows as well for me. I can't justify the subscription cost for Adobe, so I use Affinity Photo, which is quite nice, but still doesn't quite cut it. It's paid, but their forums do give off an air of being very set in their ways (don't get me wrong, I do think that can be a benefit). A lot of "this takes 10 seconds in PS, can we get something like it in AP" gets countered with "well that's PS, AP can't do this" it feels.

[AlphaObeisance]

5 minutes ago, Sauron said:

The core of the issue is that people expect Linux to work like Windows. Most people have learned to use computers with Windows and assume some things are just inherent to computing when instead they come from Windows design decisions. When they install a Linux distribution and things work differently then they feel like they're dealing with bad design or obscure functionality that they can't be expected to know - of course, you can't just know how things work if you've never seen them but that's not a problem with the system itself. Windows is not much more intuitive to use, it just feels like it is because that's what people are used to. You were probably taught more or less how it works as a kid by your parents whereas with Linux you're likely on your own. It's like expecting to be immediately able to ski because you already know how to skate; skiing isn't necessarily harder than skating but it's different and if you only know how to skate it will take some learning.

 

ect.

Brilliant points entirely. 

I would agree absolutely that YouTube is doing an injustice for Linux in it's promotion of "gaming" on Linux. I talk about Gaming on Linux but from the angle of a realist and express the points I've taken to do just that. 

Unfortunately the hype content people push on YouTube for the sake of making content is rarely an honest reflection of the experienced reality of it all. Like you said about Pop! OS. I quit using it becuase I started running into issues because they always seemed to miss or overlook something when updating or changing parts of their OS; and would roll out the updates regardless. This is not to knock on Sys76, because they have a bunch of fantastic people within their discord and are always very willing to help. Ultimately though, I left Pop!OS and Debian/Ubuntu systems in favor of Manjaro/Arch and eventually just Arch once I got a taste of what it was like to build my own system. 

But, that in and of itself is a bit of the caveat about Linux. Either one is willing to do the homework to find out what distro was designed for the uses they desire it for; rather than just picking the one with the cool dragon and pretty font (ifykyk) and then getting upset when the system doesn't do what it was designed to do. 

People need to stop looking at Linux distro's like they're all the same and realize they each have a specific purpose. You don't install a distro designed for hacking in order to game because it's going to be missing a  vast majority of the packages required to do the gaming one wants to do; which in turn will require one to do the homework required to install those packages, of which will be many, and most just simply aren't willing to do that and instead run to the forums to complain about how broken Linux is. 

It's not broken, they were just trying to use a hammer to pull out a nail. 

Anyway, +1 to everything you'd said. Nailed it on the head and you used a hammer. Thank you.

[AlphaObeisance]

3 minutes ago, tikker said:

Drag-select the text you want to quote and a pop up saying "Quote selection" should appear (can be a little hit or miss).

Noted, Thank you!
 

4 minutes ago, tikker said:

This issue extends to Windows as well for me. I can't justify the subscription cost for Adobe, so I use Affinity Photo, which is quite nice, but still doesn't quite cut it. It's paid, but their forums do give off an air of being very set in their ways (don't get me wrong, I do think that can be a benefit). A lot of "this takes 10 seconds in PS, can we get something like it in AP" gets countered with "well that's PS, AP can't do this" it feels.

I don't use art softwares in any professional manner aside of hobby work so I'm too cheap to justify paying for something I'm not making money off of (suppose that's the tree hugging FOSS junkie in me). 
 

[Sauron]

Just now, tikker said:

I've never had Windows nuke the system through a broken update

Then you've been lucky it's not actually that uncommon, though it's true that it won't generally happen just because you installed a program.

2 minutes ago, tikker said:

Do you? If I go to Steam's homepage it's two clicks to get an installer

The procedure for a new user would be: google "steam", open the website (which could already get you phished, if not for Steam then for lesser know software), make those two clicks, open the installer (which is an executable that could contain literally anything), select where it should be installed and enter. We don't mind because we're used to it but compared to "search it on the store and click install" or even "run a single command" it's pretty clunky and unsafe.

6 minutes ago, AlphaObeisance said:

rather than just picking the one with the cool dragon and pretty font (ifykyk)

oh yeah, just search this subforum for "kali" and you'll see just how well I know what you mean

[AlphaObeisance]

5 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Then you've been lucky it's not actually that uncommon, though it's true that it won't generally happen just because you installed a program.

I actually had a Windows update bluescreen me on a couple occasions lol. 

 

7 minutes ago, Sauron said:

The procedure for a new user would be: google "steam", open the website (which could already get you phished, if not for Steam then for lesser know software), make those two clicks, open the installer (which is an executable that could contain literally anything), select where it should be installed and enter. We don't mind because we're used to it but compared to "search it on the store and click install" or even "run a single command" it's pretty clunky and unsafe.

I applaud your acknowledgement of what it would be like for somebody who has never used Windows before! So too many disregard this and take our native use of Windows for granted. Like you'd mentioned earlier; many of us were literally raised on Windows, taught how to use it in school, it wasn't always easy, we just forgot how hard it was at first. 

 

8 minutes ago, Sauron said:

oh yeah, just search this subforum for "kali" and you'll see just how well I know what you mean

Isn't there a rule about using foul language on here? How dare you use the "K" word!  I'm fully versed in the flood of "How do I do this on "K"! It's not working!". Just one of those inevitable things of human nature; people like the pretty stuff and "K" gets it right in that department. Even their terminal is gorgeously formatted.

[tikker]

4 minutes ago, Sauron said:

The procedure for a new user would be: google "steam", open the website (which could already get you phished, if not for Steam then for lesser know software), make those two clicks, open the installer (which is an executable that could contain literally anything), select where it should be installed and enter. We don't mind because we're used to it but compared to "search it on the store and click install" or even "run a single command" it's pretty clunky and unsafe.

Yeah, if you put it like that our habit of just googling X when installing something on Windows is a pretty big security hazard isn't it.

[AlphaObeisance]

Just now, tikker said:

Yeah, if you put it like that our habit of just googling X when installing something on Windows is a pretty big security hazard isn't it.

Everybody's favorite alphabet soup browser/search engine dontcha know! All the convenience, privacy invasion included! But we digress lol.

[ImorallySourcedElectrons]

2 hours ago, AlphaObeisance said:

I'm curious as to why so many people have so much trouble utilizing Linux. 

I suspect it's mostly due to ignorance (that's not an insult, as ignorance is merely an unknowing). As I sat back and read these forums the reoccurring theme that I seemed to see was that people simply don't understand how Linux works. 

You state the issue yourself: because Linux requires some knowledge of what's happening under the hood to make things work. If you're not an enthusiast and you consider a computer a tool, then Linux is a hassle, because now you need additional tools and knowledge to make your tool work.

2 hours ago, AlphaObeisance said:

Lets say you installed Pop!_OS, but for whatever reason your displays aren't functioning properly. It has nothing to do with Pop!_OS and more likely that you insatlled the wrong ISO (Pop has AMD/Nvidia specific ISO's) that does not contain the appropriate drivers for your distribution. Alternatively, maybe you opted for "Open Source" drivers instead of "Proprietary" drivers.

In my experience, the Open Source drivers always require a more user technical approach in modification in order to get the drivers to function as intended. I care not to waste my time trying to fix public code when Proprietary drivers have functioned out the box for me every time on both AMD and Nvidia systems. This is a controversial topic within the Linux community but it's not something I'm going to hash out here; as I'm merely speaking on behalf of my own personal experiences on various machines. 
 

Linux needs to get its act together in terms of drivers, like the "free vs. non-free" thing has exactly zero meaning for most users who casually try out Linux. They're used to just being able to click a button and have Windows Update install everything for them, and now you're having them download sketchy binaries from various websites or fiddling with package managers to add specific repositories. So I can very much understand them blaming the distro if that's their starting point, and it ain't as if many of the communities are particularly welcoming to the average novice. Meanwhile, on Windows, if your piece of hardware doesn't work and there's internet connectivity, Windows will try to fix it on its own half the time. So that's the bar these people are rating Linux by, so complaints are only natural.

 

And to point out the scale of the issue, I've developed drivers for custom PCIe cards and USB devices for Windows, Linux and OpenBSD. So I'd like to think I'm not a complete dunce at getting hardware to work, and even I have trouble frequently when trying to get things to work in Linux. Additionally, the documentation available for Windows, from a developer/electronics engineer point of view, is also significantly better than anything I could find for Linux. And then we haven't gotten to whatever the hell is going on with sound on Linux. The saving grace is that it's improved massively versus fifteen years ago, where tools like ndiswrapper and sacrificing a few small barn animals to the demon of your choosing were the only way to get WiFi to work, but that's a very low bar to pass.

[AlphaObeisance]

40 minutes ago, ImorallySourcedElectrons said:

Linux needs to get its act together in terms of drivers, like the "free vs. non-free" thing has exactly zero meaning for most users who casually try out Linux.

I'm one of them. I couldn't give a flies fart less about whether or not a driver is proprietary or not. I bought hardware that comes with functional support from the producers; that's what I paid for. The FOSS army who insist that everything must be free are annoying at best in my eyes, but that's a topic for another discussion. As long as it functions as intended, Proprietary is just fine with me. 

 

40 minutes ago, ImorallySourcedElectrons said:

They're used to just being able to click a button and have Windows Update install everything for them,

We have that too man.... pretty much every distro has an "app store" of some sort, not unlick the Microsoft Store or Google Play.  On quality distro's, it's legitimately as easy as just searching for a package and clicking install, inputting your password for conifrmation (not unlike Windows annoying popup authorization) and call it good. 

 

 

40 minutes ago, ImorallySourcedElectrons said:

and it ain't as if many of the communities are particularly welcoming to the average novice.

Man, I'm an Arch user and I have a distaste for a majority of this community. The vast majority won't lift a finger to help, and expect everyone to do all the hours of research required to do anything simply because "it's what we had to do". It's nonsense. While I understand that they figure if one isn't willing to put forth any effort, they don't deserve to achieve what they're trying to do; I see it as callus and unempathetic. Some users out there are just kids trying to learn, not everybody's a lazy bum. 

I suppose I figure the things we accomplish today should be to spare those of tomorrow so they can advance upon what we achieve without wasting time reinventing the wheel. If that makes any sense. Much of this community, especially the Arch Community, would have everybody reinventing the wheel for the rest of eternity for the sake of understanding. Granted, one should seek knowledge; but they shouldn't waste time reinventing the wheel for the sake of doing imho.

I gave up on the Arch community entirely; pretentious punks they can be. Worst of all, as an Arch user I have to put up with the bad name anytime I post something; as someone always has to slap me with "Oh, you use arch... btw" as if I'm somehow inherently a twaffle just because I use Arch. We're not all that way, but I'm with you 100% that some communities, especially Arch, are the most toxic of gate keepers. 

 

 

40 minutes ago, ImorallySourcedElectrons said:

Windows will try to fix it on its own half the time. So that's the bar these people are rating Linux by, so complaints are only natural

While it's understandable. Anyone seeking to use any Operating System that differs from that of Windows; they must acknowledge that no matter how intuitive a system may be; it will require that one overcomes a learning curve. I've never used macOS in my life, because the one time I tried it I just couldn't stand it. The irony in that I still fell in love with a UNIX system . 

It's a shame people insist on comparing apples to oranges. If they wanted a Windows "like" experience, why even bother considering Linux to the extent of trying it out if  one's going to just expect more of the same? Just doesn't make sense to me. 

 

40 minutes ago, ImorallySourcedElectrons said:

even I have trouble frequently when trying to get things to work in Linux.

Admire your work here. Intrigued. Can you give some examples of what you've had trouble getting to work? Legitimately just curious. I admire those who are competent enough to modify drivers. I'm not quite there yet; but I'm learning. 

 

40 minutes ago, ImorallySourcedElectrons said:

Additionally, the documentation available for Windows, from a developer/electronics engineer point of view, is also significantly better than anything I could find for Linux.

While it does not relate to the countless softwares out there; the absolute best documentation I could find in regards to Linux and the Linux Kernel applicable to all Linux distros is that of the Arch Wiki https://wiki.archlinux.org/ it's mainly the reason I chose arch in the first place; as there was so much detailed information in regards to Linux from the fundamentals down to the most advanced concepts. As well known as Arch is, I'm surprised more people don't reference the Arch Wiki. Likely due to the misunderstanding that the Arch Wiki somehow only applies to Arch Distros.

 

40 minutes ago, ImorallySourcedElectrons said:

And then we haven't gotten to whatever the hell is going on with sound on Linux.

You got me on this one. This is the only issue I encounter intermittently on my rig. Seems like once a month PulseAudio goes wonky and idk how to diagnose it. I'm playing music right now and all is fine, but if I launch a steam game my audio's missing. The latter issue regarding steam is brand new, not sure what's up with that. Was playing Days Gone just last night and could hear all the groans and grumbles of the nearby zombie hordes lol. I run into issues occasionally while using Arch; but I don't address them in posts like this because so few of us DIY our distro's and most my issues are self inflicted. 

 

 

40 minutes ago, ImorallySourcedElectrons said:

The saving grace is that it's improved massively versus fifteen years ago, where tools like ndiswrapper and sacrificing a few small barn animals to the demon of your choosing were the only way to get WiFi to work, but that's a very low bar to pass.

I appreciated this illustration lol! I first tried Linux about 5 years ago and returned to Windows because well, I hate Ubuntu (i know I know, it's so great). And in just the 2 years of time before I said to heck with Windows entirely; Linux had made some serious leaps and bounds, primarily of my concern at the time were in GUI based functionalities. That's not to mention all the improvements the past couple years, especially since Valve got on board and the Anti-Cheat developers finally piped out Linux Support. 


 

[RollyShed]

AlphaObeisance asks, "I'm curious as to why so many people have so much trouble utilizing Linux."

 

The question really is "How much experience have those saying it is hard, have?"

 

My experience? Plenty. Example - My partner stepping from Windows one day to Linux the next and simply carrying on as if nothing had changed except it didn't crash and get destroyed each month by MS. And no viruses either.

Another user, couldn't get her assignments done with Windows. Linux installed, assignments done, and got a job. Questions? A couple but concerning best way to do something in LibreOffice.

 

Do I get questions? Yes but they are the same ones whether MS or Linux. Such as best way to get this off the web and make a document. Best layout for this item. Same software used in both MS and Linux.

 

tikker says, "I've never had Windows nuke the system through a broken update,".

Look (Google it) at what happened October 2018. MS nuked about a million computers including one here. Destroyed all data. In our case everything had been backed up on another disk and by using Linux, it was simply "carry on using the computer with Linux".

 

Linux systems installed by me? 40+. This includes fitting SSDs to laptops and installing Linux Mint with Cinnamon desktop.

 

Reasons for changing to Linux -

1.) Fed-up with Windows and the coming of Windows 11

2.) Older computers getting slow, usually laptops. An SSD and Linux keep them out of landfill for another decade.

3.) Easier to use with Linux. A 3 step thing with Windows will be a one or two step with Linux and the start point will be the same.

4.) The users are not gamers.

[AlphaObeisance]

3 minutes ago, RollyShed said:

Do I get questions? Yes but they are the same ones whether MS or Linux. Such as best way to get this off the web and make a document. Best layout for this item. Same software used in both MS and Linux.

That's my experience as well. It really just boils down to how intuitive and/or resourceful an individual is. The average end user will never be a power user; and that's ok. 

 

 

5 minutes ago, RollyShed said:

ook (Google it) at what happened October 2018. MS nuked about a million computers including one here. Destroyed all data.

I actually need to google this as it peaked my curiosity. Though it's no surprise you kept on trucking thanks to a Linux system lol. I don't think people realize that while Linux has really only cut it's baby teeth in terms of Personal Computing on the consumer level; Linux is the Server Side Kingpin of the computing world and Windows doesn't even hold a candle in that department lol. 

 

 

8 minutes ago, RollyShed said:

1.) Fed-up with Windows and the coming of Windows 11

Mutual

9 minutes ago, RollyShed said:

4.) The users are not gamers.

False. I'm an Arch Based power user and built my system specifically for gaming lol. 

[ImorallySourcedElectrons]

1 hour ago, AlphaObeisance said:

We have that too man.... pretty much every distro has an "app store" of some sort, not unlick the Microsoft Store or Google Play.  On quality distro's, it's legitimately as easy as just searching for a package and clicking install, inputting your password for conifrmation (not unlike Windows annoying popup authorization) and call it good. 

Yes, but there's usually always one thing that doesn't work and requires fiddling. Like I've never managed to just take a HDD with Linux on it from one system and slap it into another and end up on a desktop which is mostly functional within five minutes without having to resort to at least one terminal command. This might seem like a minor inconvenience to you, but now imagine your mom or dad have to do this sort of thing. Meanwhile, I've frequently done this with Windows 7 and it handles it like a champ.

 

1 hour ago, AlphaObeisance said:

While it's understandable. Anyone seeking to use any Operating System that differs from that of Windows; they must acknowledge that no matter how intuitive a system may be; it will require that one overcomes a learning curve. I've never used macOS in my life, because the one time I tried it I just couldn't stand it. The irony in that I still fell in love with a UNIX system . 

Yes, but you are considering it desirable to figure out how all of this works, meanwhile most folks really just see it as an impediment to the tool they need to get something done. If you look at it from that point of view, that learning curve is a pointless exercise for them. Especially if you consider the other alternatives (Chrome OS and Mac OS) are mostly painless to migrate to and from in comparison. And in my personal case, while I am familiar with some of the internals due to professional reasons (hardware design), I don't really find it enjoyable to have to mess around with an OS in my free time, it feels more like a chore. Also Bell Labs Plan 9 > *

 

1 hour ago, AlphaObeisance said:

It's a shame people insist on comparing apples to oranges. If they wanted a Windows "like" experience, why even bother considering Linux to the extent of trying it out if  one's going to just expect more of the same? Just doesn't make sense to me. 

It doesn't make sense to try Linux for most people, that's kind of the point. Heck, you could give a lot of folks a computer with Amiga Workbench, an early 90s text editor, and a rudimentary email program and they'd probably be able to get 90% of their work done.

 

1 hour ago, AlphaObeisance said:

Admire your work here. Intrigued. Can you give some examples of what you've had trouble getting to work? Legitimately just curious. I admire those who are competent enough to modify drivers. I'm not quite there yet; but I'm learning. 

 

Personally or profesionally? Personally, I've never gotten my SoundBlaster soundcard to work, nor can I get it to take my NI GPIB interface card. The former means I can't use my favourite headphones, the latter means that I can't interface with any of the equipment in my home lab. The latter should in theory work quite well, but reality sadly thinks otherwise.

In a professional sense, there's some official documentation (e.g., https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/v6.1-rc3/driver-api/index.html ), but it's by no means complete the last time I took a look at it, it's really lacking in the examples department, it doesn't mention some of the significant pitfalls, etc. I found it far more useful to dig through existing drivers and to modify starting from there. Meanwhile, this is what Microsoft is running these days: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows-hardware/drivers/ It's also a matter of having a nicely integrated toolchain, if you consider MSVS vs. fiddling with tools like GCC + KDB/KGDB/GDB, really easy choice. So while in principle you got everything you need, it's just always a little bit short of making your life easy. Also, GCC is a raging dumpster fire, and I'm not sure if LLVM is already an option these days? (It's been a while since I did any of this.)

 

1 hour ago, AlphaObeisance said:

You got me on this one. This is the only issue I encounter intermittently on my rig. Seems like once a month PulseAudio goes wonky and idk how to diagnose it. I'm playing music right now and all is fine, but if I launch a steam game my audio's missing. The latter issue regarding steam is brand new, not sure what's up with that. Was playing Days Gone just last night and could hear all the groans and grumbles of the nearby zombie hordes lol. I run into issues occasionally while using Arch; but I don't address them in posts like this because so few of us DIY our distro's and most my issues are self inflicted. 

ALSA = Aspirational Linux Sound Architecture, some folks have stated over the years that they should have stayed with the aspirations  

 

1 hour ago, AlphaObeisance said:

I appreciated this illustration lol! I first tried Linux about 5 years ago and returned to Windows because well, I hate Ubuntu (i know I know, it's so great). And in just the 2 years of time before I said to heck with Windows entirely; Linux had made some serious leaps and bounds, primarily of my concern at the time were in GUI based functionalities. That's not to mention all the improvements the past couple years, especially since Valve got on board and the Anti-Cheat developers finally piped out Linux Support. 

In terms of UI, Linux desktop managers have had a rich and colourful history, for example, for a long time it was a running joke that the Gnome developers removed a feature with each update. 

[AlphaObeisance]

4 minutes ago, ImorallySourcedElectrons said:

Yes, but there's usually always one thing that doesn't work and requires fiddling. Like I've never managed to just take a HDD with Linux on it from one system and slap it into another and end up on a desktop which is mostly functional within five minutes without having to resort to at least one terminal command. This might seem like a minor inconvenience to you, but now imagine your mom or dad have to do this sort of thing. Meanwhile, I've frequently done this with Windows 7 and it handles it like a champ.

Yeah that's a niche problem to me so I can't relate. It's not every day I go swapping hard drives on desktop computers; servers maybe, but not desktops lol. So I can't speak on it. Might have to pull my M.2 and some SSD's from my Host and toss it into the other systems just to see what happens lol. 

 

 

6 minutes ago, ImorallySourcedElectrons said:

Yes, but you are considering it desirable to figure out how all of this works, meanwhile most folks really just see it as an impediment to the tool they need to get something done.

Relatable. But if that's the case, they'd not even be considering an alternative OS anyway yes? I mean, if Windows does everything exactly how they want it; why the curiosity of even switching? 

 

 

8 minutes ago, ImorallySourcedElectrons said:

I don't really find it enjoyable to have to mess around with an OS in my free time

It's unfortunate you and so many experience this. Though it does make me grateful for my experience.

 

10 minutes ago, ImorallySourcedElectrons said:

Personally or profesionally? Personally, I've never gotten my SoundBlaster soundcard to work, nor can I get it to take my NI GPIB interface card. The former means I can't use my favourite headphones, the latter means that I can't interface with any of the equipment in my home lab. The latter should in theory work quite well, but reality sadly thinks otherwise.

Yeah I can see how that would be a pain. I've already found several resolutions on the Arch wiki regarding SoundBlaster lacking audio; but like you said, if you don't enjoy the tinker it's a moot point. 

 

 

12 minutes ago, ImorallySourcedElectrons said:

(e.g., https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/v6.1-rc3/driver-api/index.html )

A resource I'll definitely have to look into. I've never dug that deep. Still swimming around the Arch wiki before I dig deeper into something like Gentoo and then diving direct into the kernel. Definitely gonna have to bookmark this one. I appreciate you taking the time to shed some light on these issues you've had. 

 

14 minutes ago, ImorallySourcedElectrons said:

ALSA = Aspirational Linux Sound Architecture, some folks have stated over the years that they should have stayed with the aspirations  

Yeah it's legit the only issue I've not figured out how to resolve because just about the time I've found it; it resolves itself either via an update pushed through or well, whatever voodoo magic my system's got behind it lol. 

 

15 minutes ago, ImorallySourcedElectrons said:

Gnome developers removed a feature with each update. 

The irony in that when what 42 come out? (I forget what the latest I used was) but boy were people upset because they changed things up and actually added features lol. Danged if ya do, danged if ya don't sort of thing I suppose. I've since abandoned GNOME in favor of KDE for it's overall boatload of built in customization; but am looking into just using something like AWESOME or i3 but have to do my homework before I play around with those.  

 

[RollyShed]

On 11/6/2022 at 11:30 AM, ImorallySourcedElectrons said:

Yes, but there's usually always one thing that doesn't work and requires fiddling. Like I've never managed to just take a HDD with Linux on it from one system and slap it into another and end up on a desktop which is mostly functional within five minutes without having to resort to at least one terminal command.

So why do I often install Linux Mint on a disk on an handy computer and then later put the disk in the computer it is meant to be in and have NO problems. Simply switch on and it goes.

On 11/6/2022 at 11:30 AM, ImorallySourcedElectrons said:

 

This might seem like a minor inconvenience to you, but now imagine your mom or dad have to do this sort of thing.

As for age, I'd be a generation older than your "mom or dad". Is that why I don't have any problems?

On 11/6/2022 at 11:30 AM, ImorallySourcedElectrons said:

It doesn't make sense to try Linux for most people, that's kind of the point.

Another 4 ready to be delivered at a meeting in a week's time. It makes total sense to use Linux as it keeps going. Take Windows and being broken every month by MS and then totally wiped by them, 2018. Then again the next year and the next year. Linux Mint? Never, ever a problem.

On 11/6/2022 at 11:30 AM, ImorallySourcedElectrons said:

Linux desktop managers have had a rich and colourful history, for example, for a long time it was a running joke that the Gnome developers removed a feature with each update. 

That's why you use Linux Mint with a Cinnamon desktop. Simple, it works and is logical.

 

As for Windows desktops, what a mess and illogical. And they keep changing, 7, 8, 8.1, 10 and now 11 and every time different.

[solado]

On 11/5/2022 at 4:37 PM, AlphaObeisance said:

I'm curious as to why so many people have so much trouble utilizing Linux. 

I kept getting the Blizzard battle.net crash out when I logged into WoW and this was a problem that everyone was having on every distro due ot an update breaking it. I don't think that was me using Linux wrong.

 

Also I can't use adobe products which is my job. That's a trouble utilizing Linux.

 

Other than that for an everyday driver for internet, word pressing and basic's I find it great,

[tobi]

Def will give another go with Linux again when the build is finished. 
Don't really game much these days so the only thing left is to see how well it worls for Blender and multi GPu. 
If it could function decently with Ableton that would be amazing too. 

[AlphaObeisance]

On 11/14/2022 at 5:51 PM, tobi said:

only thing left is to see how well it worls for Blender and multi GPu. 

I can't attest to multi gpu setups but I use blender regularly and it works well!