The Glaring Problem with Gaming Monitors

[Plouffe]

The glossy version of the Eve Spectrum showed up and we had to find out not only which one we like more, but if this company has improved at all since the last product we got. Considering they changed their name to Dough before we could publish and some of the issues we had, maybe not so much...

 

 

 

[Spotty]

5 minutes ago, Plouffe said:

the Eve Spectrum showed up

That's surprising.

[AbydosOne]

 

oof

[venomtail]

Can't have and glare of reflections if you're in a room with no natural light

[Sevaru]

I really hope your lab will start doing objective display glare and reflectivity testing. I've done it a few times at my job and I think viewers would find it interesting to know the display's actual specular and diffuse reflectance values (reflectivity and glare). There's lots of published standard procedures that you can follow from the IDMS here: https://www.sid.org/Standards/ICDM#8271483-idms-download. All you need is an integrating hemisphere as your source and a spectradiometer to record your measures. There's other measures you can do with this equipment like, finding the contrast ratio at different ambient light levels (e.g. in direct sunlight vs in office light environments). 

[Senzelian]

That's cool and all, but can we have more oled/qled monitors? LCDs are really boring nowadays... 

I know I know, I'm probably the only one sharing this opinion...

[BobVonBob]

30 minutes ago, AbydosOne said:

 

oof

This new generation of AUX has a really boomy sound.

[Spotty]

The real reason why nobody is asking for glossy gaming monitors.

 

[danielzy]

Sadly monitor isn't $800 but rather $1100.

Also this company is so shady I will never get anything from them unless it is offered through a major retailed like Amazon or BestBuy.

[e22big]

1 hour ago, Plouffe said:

The glossy version of the Eve Spectrum showed up and we had to find out not only which one we like more, but if this company has improved at all since the last product we got. Considering they changed their name to Dough before we could publish and some of the issues we had, maybe not so much...

 

 

 

Seriously guy, if you're making HDR video PLEASE give us some head up.

 

This is the second time I had watched through the video and found weird artefacts around black scene only to realise after nearly finishing the video that's probably mastering in HDR hence the issue. I like the fact that LTT HDR content looks better than ever but having to rewatch everything to properly enjoy the video sucks.

 

Without HDR turn on in Windows, there are ton of artefact on black object

 

[MLConian]

Team matte all the way. I can definitely tune out the hazy finish, but most importantly: I don't have to draw the curtains every time I boot a game! My TV is matte too (Sony 43 inch 4K, can't be bothered to look up the type). Glossy finish is something I really hate, but I've been put off buying laptops for the longest time because everything on the market (within my price range) had a glossy screen. I'm typing this on a Surface Pro 3, and I absolutely hate how my reflection is staring back at me...

 

Why do gamers tend to play their games in the dark? I never could do that, it'd always strain my eyes. Honestly, I don't even know anyone, save for our 19 year old intern, who plays games in the dark. I sense a bubble-related myth!

[hishnash]

As a Mac users I never understood why all the other monitors are such poor matt finishes.

 These days one can get good glass etching finishes on glass footed panels that provide much better anti glare than the transitional mat plastic finish and provide much better optimal clarity if you need to avoid bright glare. 

And even with pure glossy screens, with the correct coating they are still very useable without giving up any of the clarity. 

But then again im one of those developers who will spend hours and hours pixel peeping just to make sure everything is perfectly aligned and matches the device scaling I hat it even if there is a slightest miss-alignment and thus blurry edge. 

[lost]

deferentially need more glossy screens. Colors look so much better. Glass with antiglare is the move. 4k 144hz mini led. I think Mini Led will take over soon.

[BondiBlue]

I don't care for glossy screens in the vast majority of cases. I don't have the best eyesight as it is, so the difference in sharpness doesn't really matter to me, but the reduction in glare when going from a glossy panel to a matte panel is incredibly helpful. Even some nice glossy screens (like those used in MacBook Pros) are really annoying for me. 

[heimdali]

Hi,

 

I don't understand this video:  What is the difference between matte and glossy?

 

Besides, devices that don't have their power supply built in (and this display seems to be one of those) suck because of all the mess with the additional cables and space required.

 

Also, a monitor *must* have a VGA input and is unusable without one.  Otherwise I won't be able to connect most of my machines.  That hasn't even been mentioned in the video.

 

Sorry Linus, as I much as I love and admire your videos and what you're doing (I've been watching pretty much from when you started), I can't help feeling this one has been an unusually sloppy one.  I'm usually baffled by the amount and detail and excellent information and how much work must have gone into making a video, and I keep thinking that there is almost noone else making such excellent videos and giving such good information.

 

I'm excited to see what you'll be doing in your new testing lab and I'm glad you keep up your wonderful work.

 

PS: On second thought, if matte and glossy refer to trying to make a display surface more or less shiny, that seems to be a failed attempt.  I have both side by side and they both have reflections.  On one of them, the reflections are sharper while on the other one, they are more blurred, but what difference is that supposed to make?  If daylight --- or another bright light source --- shines upon your display, you just have to block it because no display can overpower the sun --- or turn off the bright light source because it's annoying.  It has been like that since TV screens were invented, hasn't it?

 

So I don't understand this video, and I probably can't see the difference between the two displays in the video, if there is any, because the display I'm watching it on can't show it.

 

[MLConian]

3 hours ago, heimdali said:

I don't understand this video:  What is the difference between matte and glossy?

 

3 hours ago, heimdali said:

PS: On second thought, if matte and glossy refer to trying to make a display surface more or less shiny, that seems to be a failed attempt.  I have both side by side and they both have reflections.  On one of them, the reflections are sharper while on the other one, they are more blurred, but what difference is that supposed to make?  If daylight --- or another bright light source --- shines upon your display, you just have to block it because no display can overpower the sun --- or turn off the bright light source because it's annoying.  It has been like that since TV screens were invented, hasn't it?

You nailed it the second time around - matte refers to a finish of a display that has the least amount of shine to it, glossy means that it has much sharper reflections. A matte finish can also look like the surface of the screen is a bit rough. To keep light from reflecting on a screen, the reflections have to be dispersed, which in turn leads to light being dispersed and refracted over the display as the matte finish breaks up the light - this results in a dulled appearance, and a bit of a grey finish (especially visible when there's light shining on the display). A glossy finish, on the other hand, reflects all the light that falls on to it directly without dispersing it, so the reflections are crisp and crystal clear. These finishes also affect the light coming out of a screen, so the image you see when looking at it, alhough the effect is minimal - but that does mean that light coming from a matte screen will always be a bit dulled and light coming from a glossy screen will be clear as day. That also explains the perceived lack in vibrancy when comparing a matte screen to a glossy one. A matte finish used to be mostly found on devices used in office environments, because then you're sitting at the machine for longer periods of time with all the lights on, while people walk around (as demonstrated in this video as well), but then it found its way to the consumer market as well. It's a blessing for me, as I find reflections very distracting and prefer a matte finish on everything (I'd even have a matte phone, so I wouldn't be checking for scratches all the time).

3 hours ago, heimdali said:

So I don't understand this video, and I probably can't see the difference between the two displays in the video, if there is any, because the display I'm watching it on can't show it.

Your display can certainly show this, it's not like they're demonstrating HDR in an SDR video. You'll most likely see the difference between a matte and glossy screen better on an HDR display, but once you know what to look for (and I hope I've explained it well enough above), it's really clear, even on an SDR display (I watched this video on an SDR display and could tell the difference, but then again, I'm picky when it comes to matte vs glossy - for me it's matte all the way).

3 hours ago, heimdali said:

Besides, devices that don't have their power supply built in (and this display seems to be one of those) suck because of all the mess with the additional cables and space required.

Yeah, this screen does come with a separate power brick. I can see why you'd have problems with that, although the additional cables are minimal - it's still just one cable for power, it's just got a brick halfway. The brick does take some space, though, and you'd have to be able to put it somewhere so it doesn't dangle and damages the cable. The upside of this construction, however, is that you can simply replace the power brick if it dies, instead of having to replace your entire $900 monitor, and it also provides better cooling for the power brick as it's free from the constraints of the chassis, without a screen being put against it that also generates heat.

 

3 hours ago, heimdali said:

Also, a monitor *must* have a VGA input and is unusable without one.  Otherwise I won't be able to connect most of my machines.  That hasn't even been mentioned in the video.

I'm sorry, but you're out of luck there on high end gaming monitors such as this one. VGA is an analog standard that doesn't provide resolutions over 1080p, so it's mostly being phased out - and since this type of monitor is 1440p and 4K, VGA wouldn't make any sense on it to begin with as the monitor would have to upscale. If you have the money to buy this monitor, chances are you've got a system with HDMI or DisplayPort, maybe even USB-C Thunderbolt or DP Alt. Graphics cards haven't had VGA connectors in about 10 years now, and I'm struggling to find motherboards with VGA connectors, too. You can get adapters to go from VGA to HDMI if you really need to, but realistically, VGA is a dead standard, much like you won't find any component/composite connectors on modern TVs anymore. Lower end consumer monitors still have VGA, but I'm pretty sure they'll be phased out in a year or so.

[heimdali]

Thank you very much for the explanation.  With the displays I have here, it doesn't seem to make a difference, and every display is different anyway.  Are the displays in the video identical except for one being matte and the other one being glossy?  If that was mentioned in the video, it didn't become clear to me.  Even if they are identical, how much difference can you expect between displays from manufacturing tolerances?

 

Being able to replace a PSU only kinda makes sense.  I expect them not to fail to begin with, and then things need to be repairable to begin with.  If you got an external PSU and it fails after 5 years, what are the chances that you will be able to get a replacement?  All the devices that use external PSU use their own plugs and nothing fits together.

 

A display is not the only thing that I have around my desk. There are several, and there are several in my server rack as well.  If every device had it's own external PSU it would just toally suck, they do need to be built in.  When buying something, it's an important thing I'm looking for and I'll skip any device that doesn't have it's PSU built in and get another one instead unless it's impossible to avoid.  Servers usuall have two PSU built in which are easily replacable even while the server is running, so being able to replace a PSU because it's external is a moot point.

 

Look around, you'll find VGA everywhere.  Every server I've ever seen has a VGA connector, and pretty much all clients at peoples work places/desks have VGA connectors.  For example, go to a government office and you'll find they're using VGA.  Go the pharmacy and you'll find they're using VGA.  Usually you can't see it, but you can be pretty sure they're using VGA in your local supermarket.  VGA is still everywhere, and it will not be gone next year.  So a monitor without a VGA connector is useless.  If the only thing you use your display for is playing games with devices that don't have VGA outputs, you can get away without one --- but only until you get something that has one of these ubiquituous VGA outputs.  If that's your use case, then why would you need a monitor, and wouldn't you be much better off with a TV?

 

It doesn't matter what the maximum resolution you can get with VGA is, what matters is that you can connect a computer that has a VGA connector and display its output.  And that is the vast majority of computers that are around today.

 

[Arika]

we've been doing them on laptops for years, about time we did the same with desktop monitors. i would very much prefer glass/glossy panels, they just look better to me.

[heimdali]

16 minutes ago, Arika S said:

we've been doing them on laptops for years, about time we did the same with desktop monitors. i would very much prefer glass/glossy panels, they just look better to me.

Desktop monitors are usually matte as well as laptop ones.

 

I still don't understand the video.  Is a shiny display in some way exceptional or better, letting aside the beholders preference in regards to that?  If not, what does it matter and what is the video about?  My 4k display is shiny, and I got it even before HDMI could do 4k@60Hz.  All other displays I've seen are older, and all the 4k ones I've seen are shiny and are same age (and they all have VGA inputs).  What's the point?

 

[Arika]

11 minutes ago, heimdali said:

Desktop monitors are usually matte as well as laptop ones.

some laptops are, others aren't. any touchscreen or glass front laptop will be glossy (yes there are exceptions, but those are few and far between) and others will just have a glossy panel.

 

there's nothing technically better in either type, but glossy allows the colours to pop more.because they are not being diffused as much.

[Spotty]

3 hours ago, heimdali said:

Are the displays in the video identical except for one being matte and the other one being glossy?  If that was mentioned in the video, it didn't become clear to me. 

Yes, the monitors are identical except for the matte/glossy finish. It is mentioned in the video that the matte finish was an earlier engineering sample and the glossy finish is the final retail product. The only other difference identified is the firmware.

 

8 hours ago, heimdali said:

Also, a monitor *must* have a VGA input and is unusable without one.  Otherwise I won't be able to connect most of my machines.  That hasn't even been mentioned in the video.

Most people aren't buying $800+ monitors to use with 15 year old computers. The monitor is 4k 144hz and VGA simply would not be able to support that. It doesn't make any sense to include a VGA port. If you want VGA for legacy reasons either buy a different monitor or buy an adapter.

[Tams]

A rare dislike from me.

 

Ignoring that this is featuring an Eve Dough product, which was well warned about (though really it may have been better to not cover them other than in a rant video), this video seems rather ignorant of what people want from computer monitors.

 

We suffered for years with glossy displays.  It's great to see matte ones become so common.  Laptops next please.  And it's not like you can't find glossy displays out there if you really want.  Also, considering many TVs have decently low input lag and response times now, there are those as well.

[powertoys]

While I strongly dislike glossy screens, it's good that the people who want them have options to choose from.

[Tams]

22 hours ago, Sevaru said:

I really hope your lab will start doing objective display glare and reflectivity testing. I've done it a few times at my job and I think viewers would find it interesting to know the display's actual specular and diffuse reflectance values (reflectivity and glare). There's lots of published standard procedures that you can follow from the IDMS here: https://www.sid.org/Standards/ICDM#8271483-idms-download. All you need is an integrating hemisphere as your source and a spectradiometer to record your measures. There's other measures you can do with this equipment like, finding the contrast ratio at different ambient light levels (e.g. in direct sunlight vs in office light environments). 

I'm really not sure how useful that would be as a lot of it is subjective.

 

If you hate sharp reflections, then some data saying that 'well, actually the display isn't that reflective according to...' is not going to appease you.

[heimdali]

@Spotty

VGA is not for legacy reasons but for every day usage and simply remains a requirement.  It's still built into computers that are being manufactured today, and it's still most widely used.  It's simply something every display that wants to call itself 'monitor' has to have.  Why should I buy an extra adapter?  Why do they even make them when VGA isn't needed anymore, as you assume.  Why should anyone have to buy several monitors just because their fancy expensive monitor doesn't even have a VGA input?  Especially if I were to pay that much for a monitor, I'd expect it to have VGA, without question, and shouldn't even have to think about that --- even when they call it 'gaming monitor'.

 

Anyway, I watched the video again, and thinking about it, it's better than I thought.  It probably lost me at the beginning because it wasn't clear what we're looking at, the bad engineering sample or two new versions of the monitor as they are being sold, with different shinyness each.  That still isn't clear to me.  Also, at 5:30, it shows that the panels are being manufactured and adjusted very differently.  That leaves the question if the difference in "overall image quality" --- however that is being measured --- is exclusively due to the varying shinyness of the display or something else.

 

And there is no "Glaring Problem with Gaming Monitors".  No matter the shinyness of the display and no matter if you use it for playing games or something else, it always sucks when some light source defeats the image shown on it.

 

It's way more important, for example, if the display has a VGA input and if I can update the firmware (Which I shouldn't need to in the first place.).  Since updating it requires windows, they need to provide me with a computer with windows on it to do that because I'm using Linux.  It's good to push for the right to replair, but then you need to push for being able to update the firmware just as well.