Do I need a separate Dac/Amp?

[kitnoman]

This might be a dumb question as I know nothing about these stuff. I just bought a hifiman he400se. It'll be arriving in a few days. Figured, I'll try the entry level audiophile first and check if I would notice any difference. My main headset would be a steal series wireless nova pro wireless, can I just use the 3.5 on it's gamedac that's normally used for speakers or do I really need a separate dac/amp? I would probably just use the he400se for music consumption and still main my steelseries.

[LIGISTX]

3 minutes ago, kitnoman said:

This might be a dumb question as I know nothing about these stuff. I just bought a hifiman he400se. It'll be arriving in a few days. Figured, I'll try the entry level audiophile first and check if I would notice any difference. My main headset would be a steal series wireless nova pro wireless, can I just use the 3.5 on it's gamedac that's normally used for speakers or do I really need a separate dac/amp? I would probably just use the he400se for music consumption and still main my steelseries.

Itll be "fine"

 

Any headphone can benefit from a good amp and dac, I have plugged apple earpods into my Schiit Lyr 3 and been like "whoa... thats impressive". Not like suddenly earpods are amazing sounding or anything, but it is impressive to see what being driven by a good dac and amp can do to even a low tier in ear. 

 

All of this to say, if you had a better amp and dac, it would certainly help, but the rabbit hole is very deep and there are no correct answers. Give it a try with the current setup, maybe even just use motherboard audio to see if that is worse or better as well. And then if this turns into something you want to get more into, then you can look at a higher quality amp and DAC, potentially one that would do well with better headphones as well, so eventually when you do DO get better headphones your amp and DAC are still useful. 

[Brooksie359]

6 minutes ago, LIGISTX said:

Itll be "fine"

 

Any headphone can benefit from a good amp and dac, I have plugged apple earpods into my Schiit Lyr 3 and been like "whoa... thats impressive". Not like suddenly earpods are amazing sounding or anything, but it is impressive to see what being driven by a good dac and amp can do to even a low tier in ear. 

 

All of this to say, if you had a better amp and dac, it would certainly help, but the rabbit hole is very deep and there are no correct answers. Give it a try with the current setup, maybe even just use motherboard audio to see if that is worse or better as well. And then if this turns into something you want to get more into, then you can look at a higher quality amp and DAC, potentially one that would do well with better headphones as well, so eventually when you do DO get better headphones your amp and DAC are still useful. 

I mean that's really not correct. If you have a high ohm headphones then you will want an amp as your normal input isn't going to cut it. That's why I tend to prefer lower ohm versions of headphones as they are easier to run just off of your phone. 

[manikyath]

"need" is a big word.

 

it's how much you "want" to spend to get closer to "100% perfect audio", and the cost curve is exponential.

[manikyath]

Just now, Brooksie359 said:

I mean that's really not correct. If you have a high ohm headphones then you will want an amp as your normal input isn't going to cut it. That's why I tend to prefer lower ohm versions of headphones as they are easier to run just off of your phone. 

OP lists his headset, according to the manufacturer OP's headset is a 25 ohm set, that's lower than most earbuds. (which generally are 32 ohm).

[Brooksie359]

4 minutes ago, manikyath said:

OP lists his headset, according to the manufacturer OP's headset is a 25 ohm set, that's lower than most earbuds. (which generally are 32 ohm).

Yeah I was looking that up to make sure that is the case. I just know some will see the post and think that all headphones are fine without an amp when if you have a high ohm headphones you really almost need an amp for the headphones to work properly. 

[rice guru]

28 minutes ago, kitnoman said:

This might be a dumb question as I know nothing about these stuff. I just bought a hifiman he400se. It'll be arriving in a few days. Figured, I'll try the entry level audiophile first and check if I would notice any difference. My main headset would be a steal series wireless nova pro wireless, can I just use the 3.5 on it's gamedac that's normally used for speakers or do I really need a separate dac/amp? I would probably just use the he400se for music consumption and still main my steelseries.

It should be fine it'll make noise but I highly recommend at least just getting a $100 amp eventually as that headphone just improves with just getting one if those amps alone.

[LIGISTX]

1 hour ago, Brooksie359 said:

I mean that's really not correct. If you have a high ohm headphones then you will want an amp as your normal input isn't going to cut it. That's why I tend to prefer lower ohm versions of headphones as they are easier to run just off of your phone. 

I have driven my 6xx’s off an iPhone…. It’s “fine”. 6xx’s are very high impedance. 
 

Again, it all comes down to money, and how far down the rabbit hole you want to go. 
 

For a 100 dollar pair of cans, I would try and figure out what a good amount/dac combo is for maybe 50 bucks. My go to recommendation is a schiit stack, it’s hard to beat for the money, but the stack will cost twice as much as the headphones did. 

[Brooksie359]

3 minutes ago, LIGISTX said:

I have driven my 6xx’s off an iPhone…. It’s “fine”. 6xx’s are very high impedance. 
 

Again, it all comes down to money, and how far down the rabbit hole you want to go. 
 

For a 100 dollar pair of cans, I would try and figure out what a good amount/dac combo is for maybe 50 bucks. My go to recommendation is a schiit stack, it’s hard to beat for the money, but the stack will cost twice as much as the headphones did. 

My point is that high ohm headphones are going to not give you the intended experience generally without an amp. Can you still listen to them? Yeah but that isn't how they are meant to be run. What's the point in spending a good chunk of change on a high ohm headphones when you don't pair it with a proper amp. You might as well buy a lower ohm headphones and call it a day if that is what you are going to do with them. 

[kitnoman]

Thanks for the info. I'll wait for the headphone and check if it'll work. By the way, I actually have two main reason why I'm still hesitant to get a dac/amp. First, I still don't know if it's worth it for me. What I mean to say is if my ears would even notice the difference. Like, the main reason why I don't buy high end monitors is the fact that I believe I have a decent eyes, but somehow, high end and low-mid tier  monitors almost look exactly the same to me. that's why in terms of audio, I would like to try the cheap ones first. Second reason is the fact that I still have almost zero knowledge about audio setups. Yes, I've read and know what a dac and amp is and what each do. However, I'm still confuse with all those product  naming. If I search for a "Dac pc" or "Amp pc" in amazon, the same devices appears. So can you guys give me a link for each one so that I would have a reference; amplifier, dac and dac/amp combo. And what's a pre-amp?


Edit: plus I also kind of like my current setup. Since my speakers are connected through the steelseries gamedac, when I turn off my headphones, audio automatically transfer to the speakers and vice-versa.

[LIGISTX]

15 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

My point is that high ohm headphones are going to not give you the intended experience generally without an amp. Can you still listen to them? Yeah but that isn't how they are meant to be run. What's the point in spending a good chunk of change on a high ohm headphones when you don't pair it with a proper amp. You might as well buy a lower ohm headphones and call it a day if that is what you are going to do with them. 

Its not that I don't agree, its that its a hard balance to strike. Also, OP's headphones are not high impedance, but equally important to remember is high impedance doesn't necessarily mean better, or low impedance being worse. 

 

You certainly want an amp that can provide ample power so when the bass drops, it doesn't actually fall out and due to lack of power to drive the headphones... But, again, impedance is just part of the story. My 6xx's are very high impedance, but my fostex are actually quite low; and the fostex are a better headphone.

[LIGISTX]

2 minutes ago, kitnoman said:

Thanks for the info. I'll wait for the headphone and check if it'll work. By the way, I actually have two main reason why I'm still hesitant to get a dac/amp. First, I still don't know if it's worth it for me. What I mean to say is if my ears would even notice the difference. Like, the main reason why I don't buy high end monitors is the fact that I believe I have a decent eyes, but somehow, high end and low-mid tier  monitors almost look exactly the same to me. that's why in terms of audio, I would like to try the cheap ones first. Second reason is the fact that I still have almost zero knowledge about audio setups. Yes, I've read and know what a dac and amp is and what each do. However, I'm still confuse with all those product  naming. If I search for a "Dac pc" or "Amp pc" in amazon, the same devices appears. So can you guys give me a link for each one so that I would have a reference; amplifier, dac and dac/amp combo. And what's a pre-amp?

You would hear the difference in a good amp and dac, assuming the source material is not trash, and the headphones are not trash. Its night and day.

 

That said, do you care is more of an important question. Is it worth the money to you... I have a 400 dollar pair of fostex which I enjoy more then my 6xx's, but its not like "oh wow, this has changed my life" different, but it is better to my ears... but 6xx's when properly driven only get better and better (all headphones do, but 6xx's seem to just get more better and better when you plug them into a say a 4000 dollar amps and sound MOGWAI for example... being driven by a 700 dollar byfrost dac. They don't even sound like the same pair of headphones when plugged into that setup vs my lyr 3, which is already a "very good" tube amp and great DAC.

 

So, yes, you would hear the difference, but its all diminishing returns and finding the sweet spot of price to performance can be hard. Thats literally all there is to it. If you want a great option that will scale with you for a long time, a Schiit stack is a great amp and dac duo:

https://www.schiit.com/products/magni-1

https://www.schiit.com/products/modi-1

 

These are a great little set that have plenty of power for any headphone you would likely end up with, and speaking from experience (I convinced my brother and 2 friends to get this setup, all are very happy with their choice) it does a great job. I prefer the sound a tube amp provides, thus why I went with a Lyr 3 also from Schiit (it has a dac built in, I got the multibit option they no longer offer), but being built into the same box doesn't really "matter". Having them separate like the schiit stack just proves more flexibility... maybe you want to try a different amp in the future, well if the DAC and AMP are physically different devices you can use your old DAC but plug it into a new AMP, thats all. 

 

TLDR; yes you would be able to hear a difference, and you will hear more difference the nicer the headphones are. BUT you also want to be using good quality source... preferably lossless. If you start spending hundreads of dollars on good audio gear, can't be wasting it listening to MP3's... Amazon prime music has lossless audio which is fantastic, Tidal is another option as well, or good old CD's. I do listen to spotify when I am just listening to music (vs enjoying music), but when I do want to sit down to enjoy music, I switch over to amazon and the quality difference is immediately apparent. 

[Tigerleon]

3 hours ago, kitnoman said:

This might be a dumb question as I know nothing about these stuff. I just bought a hifiman he400se. It'll be arriving in a few days. Figured, I'll try the entry level audiophile first and check if I would notice any difference. My main headset would be a steal series wireless nova pro wireless, can I just use the 3.5 on it's gamedac that's normally used for speakers or do I really need a separate dac/amp? I would probably just use the he400se for music consumption and still main my steelseries.

You need an amp. End of story.

[Psittac]

4 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

My point is that high ohm headphones are going to not give you the intended experience generally without an amp. Can you still listen to them? Yeah but that isn't how they are meant to be run. What's the point in spending a good chunk of change on a high ohm headphones when you don't pair it with a proper amp. You might as well buy a lower ohm headphones and call it a day if that is what you are going to do with them. 

Onboard audio will do a decent enough job for many, I can run my 6xx with my onboard but I believe it's a higher end onboard solution (x570 board).  I'm going to take a step back this fall/winter and do some critical listening with a variety of chains to really see what I can distinguish.  But the onboard solution should work good enough.  Though that doesn't mean a better solution won't provide results, as @LIGISTX said, it's all about how much you want to get into it and how much your wallet agrees with your optional interests.

 

3 hours ago, kitnoman said:

Thanks for the info. I'll wait for the headphone and check if it'll work. By the way, I actually have two main reason why I'm still hesitant to get a dac/amp. First, I still don't know if it's worth it for me. What I mean to say is if my ears would even notice the difference. Like, the main reason why I don't buy high end monitors is the fact that I believe I have a decent eyes, but somehow, high end and low-mid tier  monitors almost look exactly the same to me. that's why in terms of audio, I would like to try the cheap ones first. Second reason is the fact that I still have almost zero knowledge about audio setups. Yes, I've read and know what a dac and amp is and what each do. However, I'm still confuse with all those product  naming. If I search for a "Dac pc" or "Amp pc" in amazon, the same devices appears. So can you guys give me a link for each one so that I would have a reference; amplifier, dac and dac/amp combo. And what's a pre-amp?


Edit: plus I also kind of like my current setup. Since my speakers are connected through the steelseries gamedac, when I turn off my headphones, audio automatically transfer to the speakers and vice-versa.

 

I'm kind of the same way, I'm getting older and my eyesight isn't what it used to be and it can be difficult to notice a difference from one panel to another panel, however for a few weeks I went from an HDR nano-ips back to a TN panel and it was apparent.  I don't notice high refresh rate either because I mainly don't play fps games, but I'm sure if I went back to a 60hz display I'd notice, I just don't have any 60hz displays left.  When it comes to audio my hearing isn't as good as my eye sight was even when I was young.  I'm sure it's still decent enough because I hear a lot of stuff others don't, but I did speaker hug back 20 years ago in club's a time or two so that must have sped thing's up.  But I can certainly tell a difference from one audio product to another, even going from a $500 dac/amp connected to a $300 amp to a $500 DAC with the same amp I can tell a difference.

 

I will say though that confirmation bias is real and the result's aren't always in your face night and day, so don't expect it to be an entirely new ball game.  It's like refinement more than anything, and the more you want of it the more it costs exponentially.

 

The audio world is full of extremes being as it's highly subjective by nature as well as because it's based on the meat sack in between the headphones.  But there is certainly something to be gained by using a dac/amp if you have moderate hearing ability.  Also remember that headphones cause the greatest changes in listening experience, with pads coming in second.  Not to mention tubes are pretty drastic if you have a baseline to compare to.

 

Some examples of a desktop dac would be

Topping D10s

Schiit Modi

SMSL sanskrit

 

some desktop amps

Topping L30

Schiit Magni

SMSL SH-6

 

some dac/amps

topping DX3

Schiit fulla or Hel

SMSL M300

[kitnoman]

2 hours ago, Psittac said:

The audio world is full of extremes being as it's highly subjective by nature as well as because it's based on the meat sack in between the headphones.  But there is certainly something to be gained by using a dac/amp if you have moderate hearing ability.  Also remember that headphones cause the greatest changes in listening experience, with pads coming in second.  Not to mention tubes are pretty drastic if you have a baseline to compare to.

 

Some examples of a desktop dac would be

Topping D10s

Schiit Modi

SMSL sanskrit

 

some desktop amps

Topping L30

Schiit Magni

SMSL SH-6

 

some dac/amps

topping DX3

Schiit fulla or Hel

SMSL M300

Technically I don't really need it, but I can get modi/magni setup to be able to "fully experience" what headphones can do, at least partially as I'm getting the more affordable ones. Alternatively, I can also just get fulla and it would also be an improvement to what I have now(steelseries nova pro wireless dac or onboard). But if I do get into it, and I went with fulla, I can have a fulla/magni combo, is this correct?

[Psittac]

2 minutes ago, kitnoman said:

Technically I don't really need it, but I can get modi/magni setup to be able to "fully experience" what headphones can do. Alternatively, I can also just get fulla and it would also be an improvement to what I have now(steelseries nova pro wireless dac or onboard). But if I do get into it, and I went with fulla, I can have a fulla/magni combo, is this correct?

correct, the fulla has RCA output

[Tigerleon]

8 hours ago, kitnoman said:

Technically I don't really need it

I have a good realtek codec on my mobo and when I tried my HE400se they didn't sound good at all and they sound pretty quiet. Planars usually are harder to drive and benefit from a seperate DAC/amp.

Edit: I just tried on my motherboard again and the volume is extremely low at 100%. And on my Sound Blaster AE-9 I need to have it around 40% on windows and max gain for the headphones to give a good amount volume.

[CTR640]

On 8/3/2022 at 6:33 PM, Brooksie359 said:

I mean that's really not correct. If you have a high ohm headphones then you will want an amp as your normal input isn't going to cut it. That's why I tend to prefer lower ohm versions of headphones as they are easier to run just off of your phone. 

That's not always the case. The sensitivity plays an important factor too. My Amiron Home with its 250ohm may sounds high but its sensitivy is so good, it can be easily driven by my old Samsung YP-U3 mp3 player and Huawei P10/Mate 20Max.

[Brooksie359]

10 minutes ago, CTR640 said:

That's not always the case. The sensitivity plays an important factor too. My Amiron Home with its 250ohm may sounds high but its sensitivy is so good, it can be easily driven by my old Samsung YP-U3 mp3 player and Huawei P10/Mate 20Max.

Sure that could be the case but it's not often and I wouldn't be betting on it. I would rather go for a lower ohm headphones If I plan to run it off say my phone with no amp. Again alot of high ohm headphones are designed around the assumption they will be used with an amp.