Best Buy told my dad to get in ceiling speakers good?

[Calebb8133]

Best Buy told my dad to get in ceiling speakers I think the normal surround sound speakers r better that you mount to the ceiling and then point them where u want them. Any input? not so much placement just in the ceiling or mounted to the ceiling?

[emosun]

I don't see the benefit of mounting the speakers in a ceiling vs on the outside of the ceiling or wall. keep in mind bestbuy makes money from selling you stuff so you need not take any advice from the sales team

[LIGISTX]

29 minutes ago, Calebb8133 said:

Best Buy told my dad to get in ceiling speakers I think the normal surround sound speakers r better that you mount to the ceiling and then point them where u want them. Any input? not so much placement just in the ceiling or mounted to the ceiling?

In ceiling speakers can be worse, just as good, or better.... like anything, it just depends what you buy. In ceiling looks a lot cleaner, and if you have the ability to do that, I would go that route simply because of how much better it looks.

 

I live in an apartment, so I don't have this luxury, so my height channels are mounted to studs in the ceiling since that was my only option.

 

Just to be clear though, the "surround" speakers are typically meant as "rears", those should be at ear level, difinitely not in the ceiling. If you ARE doing height channels, so like I have a 5.2.2 (the last .2 is the heights, 5.= R C F, rear R, rear L, .2 = 2 subs, and the last .2 = top R and top L), doing them in ceiling is a fine idea assuming you get not crap quality speakers, but that goes for externally mounted ones as well. Crap speakers will sound like crap no matter how or where you mount them.

[Motifator]

Ceiling speakers, I mean ones that are literally mounted inside or even outside such as in markets / malls are meant for specific usages. Those things connect to specific rack units consisting of ZONE pre-amps to zone power amps, then they couple those with MP3 players and radio units all inside a rack to play braindead shopping music through while you are there lol.

Best Buy doesn't know what they're on.

You want regular speakers.

[LIGISTX]

29 minutes ago, Motifator said:

Ceiling speakers, I mean ones that are literally mounted inside or even outside such as in markets / malls are meant for specific usages. Those things connect to specific rack units consisting of ZONE pre-amps to zone power amps, then they couple those with MP3 players and radio units all inside a rack to play braindead shopping music through while you are there lol.

Best Buy doesn't know what they're on.

You want regular speakers.

That… is not entirely true. There are plenty of in ceiling speaker options these days. Don’t underestimate the impact Dolby Atmos marketing and implementation by Netflix and Disney+ can have……. 
 

Atmos is amazing, and as such, manufacturers are going to make products to sell you based on the readily available atmos experiences via bluray or streaming services. I would actually argue my height channels are a larger impact on the immersion than the rear speakers…

[Motifator]

1 minute ago, LIGISTX said:

That… is not entirely true. There are plenty of in ceiling speaker options these days. Don’t underestimate the impact Dolby Atmos marketing and implementation by Netflix and Disney+ can have……. 
 

Atmos is amazing, and as such, manufacturers are going to make products to sell you based on the readily available atmos experiences via bluray or streaming services. I would actually argue my height channels are a larger impact on the immersion than the rear speakers…

Yes, there are. But the average norm of a ceiling speaker does not work the way you think it does. The off the shelf ceiling speaker is targeted for the retail and actually, you can't even power it with the stuff you own. They require 100v amps for themselves.

You're talking about hi-fi ceiling speakers but those are not too pointy either.

You'll typically get bigger speakers / better range and for better price with regular speakers. Stereo is what I'd opt for typically.

[LIGISTX]

1 hour ago, Motifator said:

Yes, there are. But the average norm of a ceiling speaker does not work the way you think it does. The off the shelf ceiling speaker is targeted for the retail and actually, you can't even power it with the stuff you own. They require 100v amps for themselves.

You're talking about hi-fi ceiling speakers but those are not too pointy either.

You'll typically get bigger speakers / better range and for better price with regular speakers. Stereo is what I'd opt for typically.

I am a bit confused, but, sure.

 

"off the shelf" depends where you buy it from, and if your in the hi-fi speaker section at best buy, they are going to be for home receiver use.

 

I know Klipsch has some, and I am sure many other companies do as well. If aesthetics are not an issue, sure, speakers mounted external to the ceiling will be better because you actually have the engineering that goes into the box, which is non-trivial. BUT, most people would much prefer not to have speakers hanging from their ceilings....... 

[sm1th5]

Ceiling speakers are to be used exclusively for Dolby atmos and dts x. 

 

And front, side and rear surrounds are to be at near ear level. 

 

Is this enough for you to understand? 

[Motifator]

2 hours ago, sm1th5 said:

Ceiling speakers are to be used exclusively for Dolby atmos and dts x. 

 

And front, side and rear surrounds are to be at near ear level. 

 

Is this enough for you to understand? 

You can use any speaker in any form, let it be mono, stereo or a million of them on a stage. This is why you have power amps to power a ton of ceiling speakers... in literally any big market / mall you go into. Zone power amps don't have any form of Dolby on them, you just connect speakers to them. You clearly don't know what you're on about.

[Blue4130]

1 hour ago, Motifator said:

You can use any speaker in any form, let it be mono, stereo or a million of them on a stage. This is why you have power amps to power a ton of ceiling speakers... in literally any big market / mall you go into. Zone power amps don't have any form of Dolby on them, you just connect speakers to them. You clearly don't know what you're on about.

Why do you keep going back to the malls/market applications? We are talking home use in ceiling speakers. Such as these and the like... 

https://www.amazon.com/Klipsch-CDT-5650-C-II-Ceiling-Speaker/dp/B0074WWK3W/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?keywords=in+ceiling+speakers&qid=1658154097&sr=8-3

[Motifator]

8 minutes ago, Blue4130 said:

Why do you keep going back to the malls/market applications? We are talking home use in ceiling speakers. Such as these and the like... 

https://www.amazon.com/Klipsch-CDT-5650-C-II-Ceiling-Speaker/dp/B0074WWK3W/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?keywords=in+ceiling+speakers&qid=1658154097&sr=8-3

Because that's the primary market of the ceiling speaker application. It serves very little if any purpose inside many homes.

Because why on earth would you go for it inside a house when regular speakers offer far better range for less cash? Let's say you bought two of those plus mounting, amplification and etc. You'll easily have spent $500 and a pair of $500 monitors side by side will wreck those things.

[tikker]

6 hours ago, Motifator said:

You can use any speaker in any form, let it be mono, stereo or a million of them on a stage. This is why you have power amps to power a ton of ceiling speakers... in literally any big market / mall you go into. Zone power amps don't have any form of Dolby on them, you just connect speakers to them. You clearly don't know what you're on about.

Those mall speakers also don't need Dolby or whatever processing in them, since as you already say they just play the same song over a large area and don't run a Dolby Atmos movie. The mall application isn't really relevant for home use.

4 hours ago, Motifator said:

Because why on earth would you go for it inside a house when regular speakers offer far better range for less cash? Let's say you bought two of those plus mounting, amplification and etc. You'll easily have spent $500 and a pair of $500 monitors side by side will wreck those things.

Nobody's saying you buy those for killer audio quality though. All the comments have been about height channels for e.g. Atmos.

 

 

On 7/15/2022 at 3:19 AM, Calebb8133 said:

Best Buy told my dad to get in ceiling speakers I think the normal surround sound speakers r better that you mount to the ceiling and then point them where u want them. Any input? not so much placement just in the ceiling or mounted to the ceiling?

What is the use case being discussed here? Is this specifically about height channels and wall/ceiling mounted that point to the listening position vs. in-ceiling speakers, or is it about surround speakers in general? In the latter case of side and rear channels, they should be at ear level as was mentioned above, so "normal" speakers would be the better choice in my opinion.

[cmndr]

Some basic education:
for surround sound systems priotity number 1 is the front sound stage (so the LEFT + RIGHT speakers as well as the center if you have one, I usually don't recommend a center until you're in the range of spending around $700+ on the LCR in total, otherwise get better L+R). This is TOP priority. Also be aware that most of the good bang/$ speakers are NOT sold at Best Buy, they'll probably try to sell you a $300 (sale price) pair of Klipsch speakers for $700.

After your LCR is good then you want surround speakers that are at ear level, using speakers positioned significantly ABOVE ear level for this is NOT optimal.

After that you're looking at rear speakers and "second level" height/atmos speakers for atmos effects. This should be relatively low priority.

---

atmos overhead speakers are kind of the "cherry on top" of speakers. You can enjoy most movies well enough without them. Once again, side-surround speakers should be at ear level as should rears (some argument can be made for rear-surrounds being a bit higher up - that was the OLD standard, present dolby standards suggests them as being at ear level)

In ceiling speakers are prettier but there's nothing all that bad or wrong with using small satellite speakers or "elevation" speakers and having them pointed at the listening position.

Just having any "not awful" speakers will go a long way towards the atmosphere effect. You don't really need to worry about non- LCR speakers being great since most sound comes from the LCR.

[sm1th5]

On 7/19/2022 at 12:21 AM, Motifator said:

You can use any speaker in any form, let it be mono, stereo or a million of them on a stage. This is why you have power amps to power a ton of ceiling speakers... in literally any big market / mall you go into. Zone power amps don't have any form of Dolby on them, you just connect speakers to them. You clearly don't know what you're on about.

We are talking about home theater here. Not any other purpose. 

 

You don't know how home theater setups are supposed to work now do you?

[sm1th5]

10 hours ago, cmndr said:

In ceiling speakers are prettier but there's nothing all that bad or wrong with using small satellite speakers or "elevation" speakers and having them pointed at the listening position.

Just having any "not awful" speakers will go a long way towards the atmosphere effect.

This seems to contradict what your saying.  Small satellite and usually elevation speakers are on the lower end of audio quality and perhaps may be included in the awful statement here.

 

I've yet to hear a small speaker myself that has decent audio quality like bigger speakers do.

[cmndr]

12 hours ago, sm1th5 said:

This seems to contradict what your saying.  Small satellite and usually elevation speakers are on the lower end of audio quality and perhaps may be included in the awful statement here.

The LCR speakers account for something like 70-90% of all sound output and nearly all voice output (not counting bass going to subwoofers - note that frequencies under 80Hz or so are hard for most people to localize, especially if you have two subwoofers that are spaced out). One consequence is that the other 2-10 speakers you have don't matter as much.

Not bad is the name of the game for "space ship noises" and ambient sounds like rain or a chain swinging over head. Also most of the sound effects are at frequencies above 120Hz (often 150Hz, which is a common crossover point for upfiring atmos kits) or so meaning you can get away with height speakers that don't put out much bass and still have deeper bass extension than what many movies are mastered for. It is possible that with time the frequencies will start to dig deeper (80Hz???) but even then you won't miss out on much.

With that said if you're using something like an upfiring "atmos addon" that bounces sound off of the ceiling, you'll get pretty bad comb filtering. This checks the box as bad. The exact same speaker, located higher up (wall mounting kits exist, and it's easier to mount small and light speakers) and firing directly at the listening position doesn't get nearly as bad of an effect as comb filtering is MUCH reduced (sound reflections are only indirect and much less pronounced).

 

The general comment about potentially using satellite speakers for height/elevation purposes is mostly driven by NOT having to drill BIG holes in a ceiling and crawl through an attic. If you're doing this yourself it's a pain and if you're paying a contractor it could end up being $1000+ for what could have been a 20-60 minute project with some speakers placed as high up on a wall as they'd go. You don't even need expensive speakers for this.


 

As an aside - for everything but bass, something like these (around $500 per pair) - https://www.svsound.com/products/prime-elevation

would generally outperform something like this (bigger and half the price) - https://www.polkaudio.com/en-us/product/bookshelf-speakers/monitor-xt20

And in a home theater set up, subwoofers should be handling most of the lower frequencies.

 

12 hours ago, sm1th5 said:

I've yet to hear a small speaker myself that has decent audio quality like bigger speakers do.

Speaker size is only VERY loosely correlated with sound quality for mid and higher frequencies. The correlation is negligible and other design elements end up mattering more (driver quality, crossover design, etc.). You do absolutely need size and heft to do lower frequencies effectively but that's not of huge importance here.

Tweeters (these are physically small - think 1" in diameter) usually do 2000Hz through 20,000Hz. These aren't size sensitive. Woofers usually do 2000Hz and lower. If you want a woofer that does 80Hz or even 60Hz you're looking at a fairly large speaker to accommodate a 5.25" or even a 6+" woofer. If you're settling for 3" (so half as wide and half as tall) then 120Hz or so is still fine, especially if there's boundary effects reinforcing the relatively low frequencies and you have EQ/room applied to the speakers to help with timbre matching.

 

An argument could be made that you're missing out on something by not having 80-120Hz signals or so coming from above head but these frequencies don't seem to be very common in most content (part of why there are so many atmos upfiring kits targeting only to 150Hz)

If your goal is DEEP BASS you should probably have a subwoofer (or two) set up with the low frequencies redirected to it. A 6" woofer isn't going to compete with a 12" woofer that's in a much larger enclosure that's specifically designed for low frequencies. Subwoofers are usually not placed 8-10' above the floor.

[wseaton]

I've been futzing with HT for years and heard home systems make the local IMAX sound like 8track in comparison. 

 

In ceiling speakers can work-for rears. Flipping rear speakers so they point at the ceiling to help diffuse the sound is an old trick that still works. Rear speakers that are in the ceiling and point down accomplish the same thing. By spreading sound out and not directly pointing at your ears can improve rear channel if you tweak the delays right. Atmos and / or DSP can't fix a room that is, let's say wider than it is longer.  The only home systems I've heard with rear channel that is truly amaze-balz and utterly vanishes have been true bipoles, and those are rare anymore. Ive heard really good rear channel with in ceiling speakers.

 

For fronts in ceiling is out of the question. In walls can work if they are designed right. 

[Motifator]

7 hours ago, sm1th5 said:

We are talking about home theater here. Not any other purpose. 

 

You don't know how home theater setups are supposed to work now do you?

I probably understand more about hi-fi than you do, which is why I'd almost never suggest ceiling applications for it. Given the amount of performance you get for the cash, and the whole fact of needing to break your walls for putting them inside.

[cmndr]

10 hours ago, wseaton said:

I've been futzing with HT for years and heard home systems make the local IMAX sound like 8track in comparison. 

 

In ceiling speakers can work-for rears. Flipping rear speakers so they point at the ceiling to help diffuse the sound is an old trick that still works. Rear speakers that are in the ceiling and point down accomplish the same thing. By spreading sound out and not directly pointing at your ears can improve rear channel if you tweak the delays right. Atmos and / or DSP can't fix a room that is, let's say wider than it is longer.  The only home systems I've heard with rear channel that is truly amaze-balz and utterly vanishes have been true bipoles, and those are rare anymore. Ive heard really good rear channel with in ceiling speakers.

My own system at this point overall sounds better than the local theater (mostly because the mid-woofers are distorting - they need to replace some gear) - as per my non-audiophile girlfriend who used to work at Audyssey (guess how I got my $1500ish AVR for free). I do like how they're able to get the bass even though - they definitely have smoother bass (I'm in a small room) and definitely lower crossovers. This mids kill it though.

If you're doing a 7 channel system (not atmos) this can definitely work, especially since the original dolby spec called for the rears to be a bit move ear level. The angle would still be a bit off but not too bad.

Newer atmos based systems actually do NOT recommend bi-pole or dipole speakers. The general idea is to just add more "proper" speakers and to allow the sound processing algorithm to spread out the sound across multiple speakers and make it more diffuse. This actually works well in my set up where my left ear is physically close to a wall mounted speaker. Adding in rears took about half of that sound and put it in the back channel - much less of an "ear blown off" effect. If you have rear height speakers, a decent chunk of the rear sound also gets redirected to those as well so the sound ends up a bit more diffuse still.

For what it's worth, someday I'll likely get front WIDES to get the sound even more diffuse. That doesn't work in my current room though.

10 hours ago, wseaton said:

For fronts in ceiling is out of the question. In walls can work if they are designed right. 

DEFINITELY.

 

The LCR should NEVER be in the ceiling.



 

[Motifator]

You know why Best Buy told his dad to get ceiling speakers? Because music stores I look at put them to clearance. Not enough people buy them, hence why they're trying to clear out their remaining units. It's their way of fooling you into believing you need a ceiling speaker in the first place.

[cmndr]

15 hours ago, Motifator said:

You know why Best Buy told his dad to get ceiling speakers? Because music stores I look at put them to clearance. Not enough people buy them, hence why they're trying to clear out their remaining units. It's their way of fooling you into believing you need a ceiling speaker in the first place.

It's probably easier to explain it with minimal training and salesmen getting ideas in their heads that don't match to reality.