Are we doing "smarthomes" wrong?

[AitoShi]

There are great points in this thread. K.I.S.S. Is being very left out of the conversation and what would be most appealing. 

 

The proprietary, IoT, service subscription, security and privacy concerns are not smart and big turn offs from this tech. "Smart" TVs themselves are just the window on the same mistakes and dangers of smart home. 

 

At this point I see our homes covered in ads with waiting periods before we can do simple things should take fractions of seconds, while selling us out to the highest bidders, not tech that actually makes anything easier and just works today, a few years and a decade from now. Fighting and losing against automated systems charging me for detergent I didn't want to buy, from a false touch. 

[skywake]

On 6/9/2022 at 3:26 AM, IPD said:

You can already program thermostats--without having them online.  You can open garage doors without having z-wave on everything.  You can also spend 5 seconds more to type a phrase into a search engine manually, rather than using voice commands and relying on wireta....err Alexa to give you the answer. We are way beyond the point of diminishing returns.  We're now at the point of "lazy" and people who would rather create incredible vulnerabilities for themselves--rather than expend another .3 calories on physically turning on a switch.  Worse, not only does it create vulnerabilities for you--the current occupant;

I think you kinda missed my point a bit and there's a huge middle ground here that I think is the best position here. My point was quite literally that all of the energy talking about smart home devices is put into trivial, unreliable and flashy actions that don't have much practical value. Sure some of those actions are fun but to me, that's not really where the appeal lies. The appeal lies in the more invisible automations

 

You talk about offline thermostats and garage doors and sure, those things are good automations ideas. So good that they became commercially viable products well before there was any kind of standards or central controllers for this kind of stuff. And you know what? They're still good automations. But there are other ways to do the same thing and also other related kind of ideas people haven't built a commercial product for. 

 

Also yes, security is a concern IMO but there are plenty of automations you can run that don't impact security. Every automation I've done for myself so far is either for temperature control, basically an extended thermostat, or "accent lighting" that tells me something. It's something I've enjoyed doing so I'll probably extend it to automate powering on/off devices on schedules/triggers and so forth. I do have Sonos speakers in every room which I guess you would argue makes me "lazy" but it's nice and it works so why not? I draw the line at "security" related items, automating locks and indoor cameras

 

On 6/9/2022 at 3:26 AM, IPD said:

it also creates a decreased resale value when prospective buyers are left with navigating and deciphering a crapton of technology that they in all likelihood neither want nor need. Think I'm joking?  Not a week passes here without someone asking about this or that tech thing left behind on their new domicile by the previous tenant.  Speakers in the ceiling.  Multi-room sound-systems.  Remnants of a projector setup.  etc.  Is it really worth the expense/hassle of setting up a "fixed" solution when you can just take a bluetooth boombox with you to the next room when you move around? 

It depends on what it is. The home opens I've gone to I'd honestly be pretty happy if there was someone who was a bit of a techie in there before me. Even if it meant having to work out to what to do with some old in ceiling speakers. Because the places I've looked at, I'm certainly not seeing people with houses wired up with Cat6. No, most of the time? People have done nothing. They have a WiFi modem combo unit on the kitchen counter and that's it.......

 

Tech is a selling point, not a negative. And working in a company tangentially related to the home building industry I can tell you now. People want this stuff. Or at least, people are getting this stuff regardless of if they want it

[IPD]

8 hours ago, skywake said:

It depends on what it is. The home opens I've gone to I'd honestly be pretty happy if there was someone who was a bit of a techie in there before me. Even if it meant having to work out to what to do with some old in ceiling speakers. Because the places I've looked at, I'm certainly not seeing people with houses wired up with Cat6. No, most of the time? People have done nothing. They have a WiFi modem combo unit on the kitchen counter and that's it.......

 

Tech is a selling point, not a negative. And working in a company tangentially related to the home building industry I can tell you now. People want this stuff. Or at least, people are getting this stuff regardless of if they want it

to you.  Tech is a selling point to you.  It is not something that is of lasting motility to the average consumer.  I'd wager that (outside of California and NYC) you won't find tech being a feature people are remotely interested in--in homes--until you get to the $750,000+ range. 

 

And I don't consider wiring up a house for ethernet "tech".  That's how we rolled with phone jacks up until the past 15 years or so.

[Just that Mario]

On 6/3/2022 at 2:04 PM, suedseefrucht said:

Usual home automation lost my interest very eary, simply because there will be a big company storing all the data about my home. If some bad guys get access to this information, they can tell, who is on vacation and plan robberies. And it's worth the effort, because you would get the data of a very big number of homes.

I can guarantee nobody would take time to hack, collect and analyze your data to break into your house. You're simply not worth it.

[Just that Mario]

On 6/3/2022 at 5:40 PM, Arika S said:

if anything connects to the internet when it very clearly doesn't have to (lights, switches etc), then yes, you're doing a "smart home" wrong.

if you're relying on someone else's servers to keep your home "smart", you're doing it wrong.

if you have to pay a subscription for basic functionality just for the privileged of having an existing thing made "smart" then you're doing it wrong.

Whilst I agree with all points, realistically company/service will have almost no audience when each household will also require servers, server maintenance, etc. Casual person will just take the "all-in exclusive" package and will want the service to just work.

[Beerzerker]

3 hours ago, Just that Mario said:

I can guarantee nobody would take time to hack, collect and analyze your data to break into your house. You're simply not worth it.

And I can promise you, you are wrong.

It's not about a single person, it's about each and everyone they CAN get info on whether it's for the simple purpose of breaking in or for other, more nefarious reasons by "Others" you wouldn't know about.. Until it's a done deal.
Typically a person by themselves aren't worth it as you say but again, it's not about a single individual because there just isn't much worth there, the worth is in numbers and a computer can amass a large number of people in a very short amount of time.

And the amount of effort to hack a home isn't that much at all vs what could be gained by doing it, making it a profitable thing if such starts happening.

Remember back when chipped keys were new and a thing?
Not anymore - Security keys to a vehicle these days can be bypassed/faked by someone with the right skills and hardware with ease, it's the same for keyless entry remotes and so on.

Point is with the technology we have these days, doing what looks like a big deal is more of a triviality, flick of the wrist if you will in effort and that's about it - That in turn makes doing such profitable even if done on a small scale because it takes so little these days to get it done.

[Just that Mario]

4 minutes ago, Beerzerker said:

And I can promise you, you are wrong.

It's not about a single person, it's about each and everyone they CAN get info on whether it's for the simple purpose of breaking in or for other, more nefarious reasons by "Others" you wouldn't know about.. Until it's a done deal.
Typically a person by themselves aren't worth it as you say but again, it's not about a single individual because there just isn't much worth there, the worth is in numbers and a computer can amass a large number of people in a very short amount of time.

And the amount of effort to hack a home isn't that much at all vs what could be gained by doing it, making it a profitable thing if such starts happening.

Remember back when chipped keys were new and a thing?
Not anymore - Security keys to a vehicle these days can be bypassed/faked by someone with the right skills and hardware with ease, it's the same for keyless entry remotes and so on.

Point is with the technology we have these days, doing what looks like a big deal is more of a triviality these days, flick of the wrist if you will in effort and that's about it - That in turn makes doing such profitable even if done on a small scale because it takes so little these days to get it done.

Thing is, breaking into homes is much simpler. You simply survey them and go in when they leave. Trying to find someone with skills to find a vulnerability in a web service, exploit it, have skills to write data analytics software on the data collected and make everything collected useful, etc, etc just to steal your tv and playstation is such nonsensical made up scenario that it just won't happen. You and rest of us common folk are never important enough for someone to dedicate this much resources into simply breaking into our houses. But you're free to believe in your tinfoil hat theories. A common thief will still just bash your window in.

[Beerzerker]

13 hours ago, Just that Mario said:

1: Thing is, breaking into homes is much simpler. You simply survey them and go in when they leave.

2: Trying to find someone with skills to find a vulnerability in a web service, exploit it, have skills to write data analytics software on the data collected and make everything collected useful, etc, etc just to steal your tv and playstation is such nonsensical made up scenario that it just won't happen. You and rest of us common folk are never important enough for someone to dedicate this much resources into simply breaking into our houses.

3: But you're free to believe in your tinfoil hat theories. A common thief will still just bash your window in.

1: That's an obvious thing - Nothing of any new or additional information there.

2: And you ass-ume that's all it's for and about, just the Playstation and TV, which is ridiculous (Seriously) but at the same time it CAN happen. Your dismissal of it in no way makes it untrue or a "Not gonna happen" thing.
Besides it's not limited to just your TV or whatever, could be about some other, more severe things as a result.
You never know and it IS foolish to ass-ume definitively as you have what is and will be each and everytime.

 

3: Your dismissive statement, calling any and all concerns about it a "Tinfoil hat theory"....
Seriously, that statement makes it sound like you could be a salesman for these systems. 
Almost makes me want to ask how much of a commission percentage per home you get.

And yes, a thief will bash a window in, that again is an obvious one and proves nothing except a thief's gonna do what a thief's gonna do, which we would hope the Playstation and TV is ALL they would do in that case.
 

[Heliian]

2 hours ago, Just that Mario said:

have skills

There is very little skill required to commit crimes, most criminals are idiots.  

Criminals will buy the tools and the data with their ill gotten gains so they can steal and rob more shit.  

[Just that Mario]

19 hours ago, Heliian said:

There is very little skill required to commit crimes, most criminals are idiots.  

Criminals will buy the tools and the data with their ill gotten gains so they can steal and rob more shit.  

and we're back to my point that it is literally the most tinfoil hat theory to be worried about when it comes to someone breaking into your house.

Also completely depends what kind of crime we're talking about. Hacking into a data center, stealing data and doing data analytics takes quite a bit of skill.

[thrasher_565]

On 6/3/2022 at 4:04 AM, suedseefrucht said:

Usual home automation lost my interest very eary, simply because there will be a big company storing all the data about my home. If some bad guys get access to this information, they can tell, who is on vacation and plan robberies. And it's worth the effort, because you would get the data of a very big number of homes.

So if I build a home automation by myself, it's unique and very unattracktive for hackers, because it's just one home. And I know exactly, what happens to my data.
 

Also yes, we have to pick wisely, which things to automate and which not.
You will always have to think about a worst case scenario. There should always be a simple way to turn on the lights and the heating, in case the system fails.
And there are things, I wouldn't automate at all. Like opening doors to access the home.

So when there is an unexpected problem,I will still be safe.

funny locking picking lawer can pick any lock you have in 4 mints or less so are you really safe? ya he lock picks for a living and others might not be as good as him but just shows how there a back door to everything

[suedseefrucht]

58 minutes ago, thrasher_565 said:

funny locking picking lawer can pick any lock you have in 4 mints or less so are you really safe? ya he lock picks for a living and others might not be as good as him but just shows how there a back door to everything

It's about the effort / value ratio.

Hiring the world's best lock picker will be pretty expensive for just 1 household and it's pretty risky if you don't know, if someone's home.

 

Hacking data about  1 000 000 households is much more profitable.

[Sir Beregond]

Call me a luddite, I am completely against the concept of overly "smart" homes. Why? Like cars, I don't need more of my things connected to the internet for hackers to get into, or companies to spy/steal data through as yet another vector. I also agree with the idea that many of these "smart"home ideas actually make things more complex and harder to deal with if it doesn't work right.