[Rant?] Opinion: If a Surface book is your only option, there’s something wrong.

[Noahti]

As a student I’m on a seamless endless odyssey to find a convertible for my daily use at the university. I probably must accept my fate and buy a surface book since it probably has the smallest flaws compared to the other options.
 

Let me tell you how it came to this. I´m currently running a XPS 13 2in1 for over and year and decided that the XPS just isn’t it. I really love the looks, the feel and just the quality of the XPS, but having to do the hole turn the display 360 onto the back of the keyboard thing just is to annoying during lecture. First it just takes long to lift it, flip it and then being annoyed if it didn’t recognize you flipped it back into Laptop mode. A quick “I´ll just type it or I´ll draw it” isn’t possible in the lecture, drawing is specially annoying doing to screen wiggle while in laptop mode. Another thing that really made me not like the XPS is that reading on it at portrait mode just isn’t fun, the Keyboard gets hot and the device is quite heavy to comfortable hold, for example when sitting on the couch, when laying down on the table it’s tilted on one side.
Moreover, the Dell active Pen may be better than some of other options it’s by far not the best in terms of precision (mine is notorious unprecise at the top right corner – doesn’t matter how often its recalibrated) or the Feel/haptics, not to mention the XPS being nonmagnetic so storing the Pen just on the side isn’t easily possible.
 

I’ts easy to see, that I want a 2in1 where the screen can be separated from the keyboard – a wish that was reinforced by using the Surface pro 6 from my girlfriend to read papers. That’s where the struggle begun. Since I want to have a better experience with the stylus then with my Dell – sorry to Lenovo Duet and other alternatives – it must be an iPad or and Surface device.
I began to nail down the options:
First the iPad + (magic) Keyboard + Pen: without the magic Keyboard maybe a great budget bundle since I got my gaming rig at home to do any hard work. But since I really would like to write my essays and papers on the go or while being in the university between lectures or in the Bibliotheca, I would need a Keyboard. The magic keyboard – even if it’s shamelessly overpriced- would probably have been the choice, if there wouldn’t be a huge problem with IOS. First, I´m a Windows/ Android user my whole life and second - more importantly- my Workflow heavily involves using Citiavi (a program for organizing references, and quick citing while writing) which of course isn’t viable for MacOS, IOS or as an Add-In for Word in one of those.
It has to be a Surface device then. The options are Surface Pro, Go and the Book.
First problem with the Pros and Gos is the lack of being able to hold it comfortable in the lap and type while sitting on the couch for example, and the permanent need to use the Kickstand elsewhere. Second the major Problem for me – maybe you think I’m just picky, but I really need to write a lot, so this is quite important to me- the wacky, wobble, expensive Type covers. It just doesn’t feels correct to write on them, more over I´m doing a lot more mistakes (missing letters, to many letters etc.) when using the type cover.
Concluding only the Surface book is left, a device far from perfect I could pick so many things like on the 3^rd gen not being able to tilt the display as far back as in earlier versions, the lack of thunderbolt, the kind of old design and the fact that it probably – do to Surface laptop Studio- won’t be supported In near future. As Linus said at the review of the 2^nd gen “Who would buy this???” – Well, me and I´m not a fan, but as far as I can see it is my only option.

[Bananasplit_00]

I mean i can't really give you any options, but I have never been as happy with any piece of tech as my Surface Pro 4.

 

I wrote and cut a long bit about what I liked and didn't about it but honestly I don't think it would be helpful to you. I was looking for a "large" windows tablet and ended up with a pro, and it's perfect for what I need.

 

What I will say though is that the kick stand and keyboard end up much less of a hassle than you'd expect. It's not 0, but I find it to be worth it.

[Bombastinator]

From what I have heard there are only a few companies with decent pen features, and the only two that make laptops are Microsoft and apple. Samsung would be in the mix, but their (really pretty good, better than Microsoft’s) pen software seems to stay on their tablets and smartphones.  You might be able to find a Samsung that works if you look hard enough.  Can’t think of one off hand.  You want something that was breathed on by their galaxy note people

[IPD]

1 hour ago, Noahti said:

As a student I’m on a seamless endless odyssey to find a convertible for my daily use at the university. I probably must accept my fate and buy a surface book since it probably has the smallest flaws compared to the other options.
 

Let me tell you how it came to this. I´m currently running a XPS 13 2in1 for over and year and decided that the XPS just isn’t it. I really love the looks, the feel and just the quality of the XPS, but having to do the hole turn the display 360 onto the back of the keyboard thing just is to annoying during lecture. First it just takes long to lift it, flip it and then being annoyed if it didn’t recognize you flipped it back into Laptop mode. A quick “I´ll just type it or I´ll draw it” isn’t possible in the lecture, drawing is specially annoying doing to screen wiggle while in laptop mode. Another thing that really made me not like the XPS is that reading on it at portrait mode just isn’t fun, the Keyboard gets hot and the device is quite heavy to comfortable hold, for example when sitting on the couch, when laying down on the table it’s tilted on one side.
Moreover, the Dell active Pen may be better than some of other options it’s by far not the best in terms of precision (mine is notorious unprecise at the top right corner – doesn’t matter how often its recalibrated) or the Feel/haptics, not to mention the XPS being nonmagnetic so storing the Pen just on the side isn’t easily possible.
 

I’ts easy to see, that I want a 2in1 where the screen can be separated from the keyboard – a wish that was reinforced by using the Surface pro 6 from my girlfriend to read papers. That’s where the struggle begun. Since I want to have a better experience with the stylus then with my Dell – sorry to Lenovo Duet and other alternatives – it must be an iPad or and Surface device.
I began to nail down the options:
First the iPad + (magic) Keyboard + Pen: without the magic Keyboard maybe a great budget bundle since I got my gaming rig at home to do any hard work. But since I really would like to write my essays and papers on the go or while being in the university between lectures or in the Bibliotheca, I would need a Keyboard. The magic keyboard – even if it’s shamelessly overpriced- would probably have been the choice, if there wouldn’t be a huge problem with IOS. First, I´m a Windows/ Android user my whole life and second - more importantly- my Workflow heavily involves using Citiavi (a program for organizing references, and quick citing while writing) which of course isn’t viable for MacOS, IOS or as an Add-In for Word in one of those.
It has to be a Surface device then. The options are Surface Pro, Go and the Book.
First problem with the Pros and Gos is the lack of being able to hold it comfortable in the lap and type while sitting on the couch for example, and the permanent need to use the Kickstand elsewhere. Second the major Problem for me – maybe you think I’m just picky, but I really need to write a lot, so this is quite important to me- the wacky, wobble, expensive Type covers. It just doesn’t feels correct to write on them, more over I´m doing a lot more mistakes (missing letters, to many letters etc.) when using the type cover.
Concluding only the Surface book is left, a device far from perfect I could pick so many things like on the 3^rd gen not being able to tilt the display as far back as in earlier versions, the lack of thunderbolt, the kind of old design and the fact that it probably – do to Surface laptop Studio- won’t be supported In near future. As Linus said at the review of the 2^nd gen “Who would buy this???” – Well, me and I´m not a fan, but as far as I can see it is my only option.

 Wait...the products you don't exist, and you have no other real options?

 

Welcome to the club.  I can think of 2 or 3 market segments as of this very moment--that manifest this problem.

[Noahti]

11 hours ago, Bananasplit_00 said:

I mean i can't really give you any options, but I have never been as happy with any piece of tech as my Surface Pro 4.

 

I wrote and cut a long bit about what I liked and didn't about it but honestly I don't think it would be helpful to you. I was looking for a "large" windows tablet and ended up with a pro, and it's perfect for what I need.

 

What I will say though is that the kick stand and keyboard end up much less of a hassle than you'd expect. It's not 0, but I find it to be worth it.

Maybe I will give it another try and test it again, thx for pointing it out. I just whish they woud make something like a surface book or magic keyboard for the surface line with support to hold it... 

11 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

From what I have heard there are only a few companies with decent pen features, and the only two that make laptops are Microsoft and apple. Samsung would be in the mix, but their (really pretty good, better than Microsoft’s) pen software seems to stay on their tablets and smartphones.  You might be able to find a Samsung that works if you look hard enough.  Can’t think of one off hand.  You want something that was breathed on by their galaxy note people

I have looked towards the 360 flex books but I really want something that can be separated, so I would have to stick with a tablet... 

10 hours ago, IPD said:

 Wait...the products you don't exist, and you have no other real options?

 

Welcome to the club.  I can think of 2 or 3 market segments as of this very moment--that manifest this problem.

Hell yeah, but I really hoped as the first 2 in 1s and the surface book realised in 2015 that this segment woud be filled by now. 

[Bombastinator]

Back to apple again the option there would be an iPad Air with one of those keyboard attachments.  Dunno if it’s something you want though. The problem is the needs are fairly rare so there aren’t a ton of options.

[Commodus]

3 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

Back to apple again the option there would be an iPad Air with one of those keyboard attachments.  Dunno if it’s something you want though. The problem is the needs are fairly rare so there aren’t a ton of options.

Like the OP said, though, he really does need software that isn't available on the iPad. An iPad Air + Magic Keyboard combo can be a treat, but only if it fits into your workflow.

[Imbadatnames]

Honestly 2 in 1’s aren’t good and never have been. They’re just a bad idea. You’re getting a bad laptop with a worse tablet built in. Just get a laptop and an iPad 

[Qyygle]

The galaxy book pro 360's are nice, and the Wacom EMR experience is honestly better than both Surface and ipad in my opinion. Some people have complained about palm rejection on EMR, but it's never bothered me as long as I set all touch rejection settings to on when the pen is in use.

From what I can see spec-wise, it's also lighter than the XPS, I can't comment much on the heat output personally beween the two, but the galaxy book seems to be much more power throttled than the XPS as well, so presumably it runs cooler.

 

Having a separating keyboard/display can be nice and all, but it really does come with its own cons. For one, flipping it around to take notes is just as tedious as rotating the deck 360. On the surface books, you push the release, wait, pull the display off, turn the keyboard around, then latch it back down and flip the screen down (assuming you want to keep the battery life that comes from the keyboard portion, usually useful in classes/lecture)

Do that a few times, have the fun times of the latch mechanism fail to register a few times, and you'll wish for the rotating setup again...

 

If anything, for swapping from keyboard to notes and back, the Laptop Studio or ConceptD Ezels are best in terms of the pull forward display hinges, but those are both also setup as more heavy primary laptops, rather than true 2-1s, so reading on the couch with those will be a stretch.

 

[Bombastinator]

3 hours ago, Imbadatnames said:

Honestly 2 in 1’s aren’t good and never have been. They’re just a bad idea. You’re getting a bad laptop with a worse tablet built in. Just get a laptop and an iPad 

The advantages are obvious.  If they were good more people would use them.  As it is it’s people who have to have a stylus AND a full computer.

[Imbadatnames]

29 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

The advantages are obvious.  If they were good more people would use them.  As it is it’s people who have to have a stylus AND a full computer.

What advantages exactly? Why do you want a stylus to lug around something that’s too heavy to use as a tablet and doesn’t have the tracking accuracy for a good stylus? 

[Qyygle]

54 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

The advantages are obvious.  If they were good more people would use them.  As it is it’s people who have to have a stylus AND a full computer.

Just don't bother to answer Imbadatnames. He doesn't seem to have much to contribute. The OP made it pretty clear his use case doesn't work with an ipad.

To each his own, but 2-in-1's definitely have a niche. Going through engineering school with a touchscreen/stylus enabled laptop was a much better experience. 

[Bombastinator]

1 hour ago, Imbadatnames said:

What advantages exactly? Why do you want a stylus to lug around something that’s too heavy to use as a tablet and doesn’t have the tracking accuracy for a good stylus? 

There are situations where literally nothing else will do, and other solutions aren’t just worse, they’re much worse.  To the point that there is an argument that computer tech STILL hasn’t caught up with paper in some ways.  Note taking and arts are two that come to mind.

[Bombastinator]

58 minutes ago, Qyygle said:

Just don't bother to answer Imbadatnames. He doesn't seem to have much to contribute. The OP made it pretty clear his use case doesn't work with an ipad.

To each his own, but 2-in-1's definitely have a niche. Going through engineering school with a touchscreen/stylus enabled laptop was a much better experience. 

If I hadnt spent some time as that person I would perhaps have a different opinion. 

[rikitikitavi]

22 hours ago, Noahti said:

my Workflow heavily involves using Citiavi (a program for organizing references, and quick citing while writing) which of course isn’t viable for MacOS, IOS or as an Add-In for Word in one of those.

Are you open to Citiavi alternatives? You can try Citationsy (https://citationsy.com/compare/citationsy-vs-citavi).

This way you can choose either M1 iPad Air or M1 iPad Pro 12.9" for the bigger size.

 

As for the keyboard... unless you want to pay extra for the convenience of iPad Magic keyboard, I suggest you check out some Bluetooth (or USB-C) 60% (or less) alternatives. For example: short Apple Magic Kb (w/out TouchID), Anne Pro 2 (mechanical w/ BT), or ergonomic options like Keyboardio Atreus or OLKB, etc.

[Bombastinator]

4 hours ago, rikitikitavi said:

Are you open to Citiavi alternatives? You can try Citationsy (https://citationsy.com/compare/citationsy-vs-citavi).

This way you can choose either M1 iPad Air or M1 iPad Pro 12.9" for the bigger size.

 

As for the keyboard... unless you want to pay extra for the convenience of iPad Magic keyboard, I suggest you check out some Bluetooth (or USB-C) 60% (or less) alternatives. For example: short Apple Magic Kb (w/out TouchID), Anne Pro 2 (mechanical w/ BT), or ergonomic options like Keyboardio Atreus or OLKB, etc.

If the issue is citiavi that seems to not be a problem https://help.citavi.com/en/topic/157089-citavi-on-macbook-or-other-alternative

[Imbadatnames]

12 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

There are situations where literally nothing else will do, and other solutions aren’t just worse, they’re much worse.  To the point that there is an argument that computer tech STILL hasn’t caught up with paper in some ways.  Note taking and arts are two that come to mind.

You can’t do art on a 2 in 1 the responsiveness isn’t good enough and notes are jarring. Typing notes is quicker and again tablets are 1000x better than a 2 in 1. Might was well get a tablet with a Bluetooth keyboard and mouse 

[Noahti]

Hey all, thanks for ur answers so far, I did a bit more thinking the last days:

At this moment I´m leaning towards an iPad Pro 12.9 (because of the display size). This his multiple reasons: First I think that with a Gen 5 iPad I should be Fine for the next 4/5 years, probably even more- considering it doesn’t have to do any hard work. Moreover I´m maybe able to get an iPad Pro “cheap” if I can manage to get it with the extend of my mobile phone contract, since I´m not in need of a new Phone. Moreover, I thought about the Citavi support: On IOS I would be still able to write my papers, only the pasting of the references would have to be done on my Desktop, I can leave placeholders in the Doc. Moreover, there’s hope, as @Bombastinator pointed out the Citavi Web beta took place – even tho I haven’t heard anything about it after- Citavi Web is now viable, I just need to get a license and with the iPad rising in popularity at university theres also hope for an proper IOS App just like they doing with Mac atm.

If I´m not able to get an iPad with my contract extension I probably still aiming for a surface book, which I can with good specs (used) for arround the same price more likely even cheaper then the iPad bundle, here still my biggest concern is the futureproofs with the device….

[Bombastinator]

On 4/12/2022 at 7:49 AM, Commodus said:

Like the OP said, though, he really does need software that isn't available on the iPad. An iPad Air + Magic Keyboard combo can be a treat, but only if it fits into your workflow.

Yeah.  Some sort of remote to another machine would be needed.  Such a thing could be built or rented as a metered PaaS

[Bombastinator]

10 hours ago, Imbadatnames said:

You can’t do art on a 2 in 1 the responsiveness isn’t good enough and notes are jarring. Typing notes is quicker and again tablets are 1000x better than a 2 in 1. Might was well get a tablet with a Bluetooth keyboard and mouse 

There are people that do.  Everything is technique dependent.  Some techniques actually avoid accuracy. Warhol made his first bones as a commercial artis by drawing with a dip pen on wax paper then blotting it for example.

[Imbadatnames]

16 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

There are people that do.  Everything is technique dependent.  Some techniques actually avoid accuracy. Warhol made his first bones as a commercial artis by drawing with a dip pen on wax paper then blotting it for example.

Issue is that’s a physical technique not a dodgy digitiser. All this will do will mess with your accuracy not create an effect 

[jaslion]

Welcome to being in a beyond niche market segment :p. Today our special and only item is the same as has been for a decade. Enjoy!

 

But yeah basically a 2in1 flip over is the best you can get. There are other options but man every option basically just kinda sucks in one way or another.

[Bombastinator]

On 4/13/2022 at 1:30 PM, Imbadatnames said:

Issue is that’s a physical technique not a dodgy digitiser. All this will do will mess with your accuracy not create an effect 

It was just an example of active avoidance of accuracy for an effect.  I don’t know what the OP needs a digitizer for exactly.  Effects on digitizer vs effects on analog media are different, and they often don’t translate well machine to machine.

[Imbadatnames]

2 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

It was just an example of active avoidance of accuracy for an effect.  I don’t know what the OP needs a digitizer for exactly.  Effects on digitizer vs effects on analog media are different, and they often don’t translate well machine to machine.

It’s not an example though because it doesn’t have parallels. It’s just inconvenient and unpleasant, it doesn’t create an effect. 

[Bombastinator]

7 minutes ago, Imbadatnames said:

It’s not an example though because it doesn’t have parallels. It’s just inconvenient and unpleasant, it doesn’t create an effect. 

Incorrect.  
a. There are parallels 

b. The technique was used because it was both fast and produced a repeatably saleable look.  This sort of thing is critical for illustration. Digitized art has a bunch of advantages only one of which is that it doesn’t need to be mechanically digitized after it is finished for printing.

c. Sometimes messing with accuracy IS creating an effect.