NO overclocking for you "AMD Asks Motherboard Makers to Remove Overclocking Options for Ryzen 7 5800X3D"

[darknessblade]

Summary

According to the message posted by 老弟一号 on Bilibili (Chinese social media platform), the upcoming Ryzen 7 5800X3D does not yet support overclocking. What is important to note is that nowhere does the original poster confirm that this is a permanent lack of this feature, or rather just current state of the firmware support.

 

Quotes

Quote

TechPowerUp has verified a rumour posted over on VideoCardz that is quite puzzling, as AMD has asked motherboard makers to remove support for overclocking in the UEFI/BIOS for the Ryzen 7 5800X3D. When we asked for a reason as to why this was the case, we were told that AMD was keeping that information to themselves for the time being. The details provided by AMD are short and to the point "5800X3D 8C16T 100-xxxxxxxxx 105 W AGESA: PI 1206b 1/28 Please hide Vermeer-X CPU OC BIOS SETUP options".

 

My thoughts

So they release a new CPU without Overclocking feature.

 

Now that AMD is better than Intel, in terms of price/performance, are they gonna go down the same road as Intel, by making the overclockable version more expensive

 

Sources

https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/according-to-reportsamd-ryzen-7-5800x3d-does-not-enable-overclocking.html

https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-ryzen-7-5800x3d-reportedly-does-not-support-overclocking-yet

https://www.techpowerup.com/292782/amd-asks-motherboard-makers-to-remove-overclocking-options-for-ryzen-7-5800x3d

https://t.bilibili.com/635534505670606852

[Fasterthannothing]

Well I guess every company gets greedy when they are on top. That's ok I have no CPU loyalty I'll just buy Intel CPUs

[starsmine]

Considering their entire line up is unlocked for OC, I wonder if this is just because of stability issues with the L3 cache?

Greed is not how I would put it at this point as that doesnt make sense with this being the halo product for desktop zen 3 and the final hurrah before zen 4. This cant be about making the overclockable versions more expensive, as it will be the only chip in the line up without it. 

[mariushm]

That chip has those SRAM cache dies stacked on top of the CPU dies and the cpu and memory dies are connected together. 

 

My guess is technological limitations : could be the SRAM cache chips can't handle too high frequencies, or they're worried about overheating (as the sram cache chiplets would be between the actual cpu die and the metal heat spreader)

 

Really don't think it's greedy, or artificial limitation on purpose. 

[Somerandomtechyboi]

Someone will eventually make modded bios to allow ocing anyways so just gotta wait for that and you can freely oc the 5800x3d

 

Or its just gonna be the athlon 200g all over again and once someone purposely or accidentally releases an ocing enabled bios everyone will follow suit

[Rauten]

Gonna echo the idea that this is more likely a "growing pain" of their cache stacking, rather than outright greed.

 

That being said though, AMD has already shown their greed. Look how freaking LONG it's taken them to release more 5000 models, and there's still no R3 SKUs!

They've already been bit by the cash bug, but I don't think this is a consequence of that.

[mariushm]

8 minutes ago, Rauten said:

Gonna echo the idea that this is more likely a "growing pain" of their cache stacking, rather than outright greed.

 

That being said though, AMD has already shown their greed. Look how freaking LONG it's taken them to release more 5000 models, and there's still no R3 SKUs!

They've already been bit by the cash bug, but I don't think this is a consequence of that.

I would argue maybe they're a victim of their own success... maybe the dies come out so good and with so few errors that most dies bin to 6 cores and higher, in which case it would be silly to reduce their profits by disabling cores... 

Maybe TSMC/Samsung/Glofo can't give them more factory time due to everyone else demanding wafers (ex see car people complaining about not enough chips for cars) so if their 

[Doobeedoo]

It's whatever really, it's mid-gap SKU though, not really need to OC in general if PBO and cooling works well.

[Helpful Tech Witch]

1 hour ago, darknessblade said:

Now that AMD is better than Intel, in terms of price/performance, are they gonna go down the same road as Intel, by making the overclockable version more expensive

 

its not, the intel offerings are better price to performance

[porina]

Agree with previous posts that it is probably some technical hurdle requiring it to be disabled.

 

12 minutes ago, Doobeedoo said:

not really need to OC in general if PBO and cooling works well.

Not up to speed recently but PBO was counted as OC last time I looked.

[darknessblade]

23 minutes ago, Helpful Tech Wiard said:

its not, the intel offerings are better price to performance

That depends on the country you live in.

 

Here in the EU most Intel based systems, as far as i know are more expensive than AMD based systems

[Middcore]

This thing looks more pointless by the day. 

[porina]

5 minutes ago, Middcore said:

This thing looks more pointless by the day. 

Don't know about gaming, but this would be really sweet for some memory-bandwidth-bound compute uses that exceed existing cache sizes.

[Helpful Tech Witch]

13 minutes ago, darknessblade said:

That depends on the country you live in.

 

Here in the EU most Intel based systems, as far as i know are more expensive than AMD based systems

In germany

the 12400f is about 60 euro cheeper than the 5600x, 12400f is faster

The 12600k is about 30 euro more expensive, much faster than the 5600x

[PDifolco]

15 minutes ago, darknessblade said:

That depends on the country you live in.

 

Here in the EU most Intel based systems, as far as i know are more expensive than AMD based systems

Huh ? It's same in Europe than the US, Intel CPUs are cheaper but the new Intel boards are more expensive... Eventually Intel is still ahead on the total cost, at least for gaming, especially on high end

[darknessblade]

4 minutes ago, Helpful Tech Wiard said:

In germany

the 12400f is about 60 euro cheeper than the 5600x, 12400f is faster

The 12600k is about 30 euro more expensive, much faster than the 5600x

Yes the CPU's are cheaper. but if you look at the total system "with DDR5" its more expensive.

 

[Helpful Tech Witch]

1 minute ago, darknessblade said:

Yes the CPU's are cheaper. but if you look at the total system "with DDR5" its more expensive.

 

But you don’t need ddr5.

they’re still faster than the amd options with ddr4, not having ddr5 makes them just a couple % less fast

[RejZoR]

Lets be honest here for a moment. There isn't any overclocking on Ryzen CPU's. Only time anyone would even bother with it, it's if you're only doing multithreaded compute tasks 24/7 because you may up the all core clock a bit over what CPU does by itself. If you mostly do gaming and general single threaded stuff, you can't overclock it at all as you'd be nerfing single thread performance heavily. You can't increase the boost clock at all because of ridiculous "clock stretching" where you just get nice clock numbers that don't translate to any performance increase, PBO does nothing but ramp up power consumption while not doing anything because of how control curves work and at the end of the day, temperature is always the limiting factor. Are you going to run AiO at 100% at all times just for CPU to maybe boost 50MHz higher on average? Pointless. All you may get is few extra points, squeezing last percent or two out of what automatic boosting doesn't achieve. And that's it. Ryzen CPU's are not bad and they are actually great experience out of the box, but they really aren't overclockers in any way, shape or form. I wasn't expecting much and I got nothing at all as far as overclocking goes. In that regard, Intel still has the crown as you can push the CPU even higher, particularly in all core clocks. Also thanks to much better overclocking management. With Intel CPU's you can have adaptive voltage and adaptive multiplier. The moment I change any of it on Ryzen, it's permanently jacked up and that's just dumb. If I change voltage it's either fixed maxed out or it's a permanent offset. With Intel, it only uses max voltage setting when you put it under heavy load. Same for multiplier. On Ryzen, if I change it to anything other than AUTO, it's permanently stuck to that multiplier. If it's 45, it'll be at 4,5GHz 24/7. On Intel, even if you increase the multiplier, it'll only be applied under heavy loads, under light, it'll drop it to stock rates. This also means you can actually have efficient and overclocked system and actually be able to increase settings and not have them fixed. No such thing on Ryzen. And I don't think my Strix X570-E is particularly limited for overclocking. It's just how it is.

 

So, bottom line, nothing is lost with 5800X3D if it can't be manually overclocked at all. It'll be great for what it's meant for (gaming) out of the box and that's that. You wouldn't be able to gain anything from it anyways.

[Middcore]

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

Lets be honest here for a moment. There isn't any overclocking on Ryzen CPU's.

Not for 3000 and 5000, that's true. It's really not worth the bother. In the medium to long term I really think that OC'ing as we've known it by the end user is going to go away completely.

 

Still, "You can overclock any of our chips instead of having to pay extra for an unlocked one like our competitor makes you do" has been part of AMD's whole pitch, and compromising that doesn't make them look good even if the number of people it practically impacts is minimal.

 

Right now the 5800X3D just looks like a CPU equivalent of the Radeon VII: a stopgap product with no particular market pushed out to use up silicon and get a bit of attention during a period where AMD's competitor is beating them and their real response isn't ready yet, that's too expensive for what it delivers and ultimately only hurts their rep. 

 

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

It'll be great for what it's meant for (gaming) out of the box

 

Well, we don't know that. Great as compared to what? Greater than the equivalently priced Intel stuff? 

 

I'd like to be wrong about this and for the 5800X3D to be a great value gaming chip I could drop in my gaming system in place of the 5600X but... 

[RejZoR]

28 minutes ago, Middcore said:

Not for 3000 and 5000, that's true. It's really not worth the bother. In the medium to long term I really think that OC'ing as we've known it by the end user is going to go away completely.

 

Still, "You can overclock any of our chips instead of having to pay extra for an unlocked one like our competitor makes you do" has been part of AMD's whole pitch, and compromising that doesn't make them look good even if the number of people it practically impacts is minimal.

 

Right now the 5800X3D just looks like a CPU equivalent of the Radeon VII: a stopgap product with no particular market pushed out to use up silicon and get a bit of attention during a period where AMD's competitor is beating them and their real response isn't read yet, that's too expensive for what it delivers and ultimately only hurts their rep. 

 

 

Well, we don't know that. Great as compared to what? Greater than the equivalently priced Intel stuff? 

 

I'd like to be wrong about this and for the 5800X3D to be a great value gaming chip I could drop in my gaming system in place of the 5600X but... 

It's hard to overclock when even the built in boosting engine seems to have no clue what to do with raised boost limits. Be it just 50MHz or 150MHz, it just doesn't know what to do with loosened restrictions. You'd think giving it more wattage and amps to work with and better cooling would do anything. It still does nothing. It just shows pretty clocks while actually losing performance. Only thing that mildly improves general clocks is if you put AiO fans to 100%. Then you might see like a single digit % performance increase on average clocks as it'll do few MHz more on all core tasks. And still max out at 4,85 GHz for single threaded workloads. You'll have a jet engine near you for basically zero gains.

 

Like i said, Ryzen is great if all you do is multithreaded loads where you can gain some from overclocking. And it'll run maxed out 24/7 then. If Ryzen CPU's could do 4,85 GHz on all cores when overclocking parameters and elevated voltages were involved like Intel CPU's can (but don't do by default for consumption and heat reasons), I'd even defend it. But it's just entirely impossible. It's also entirely impossible to raise just a single thread while not touching multicore clocks. It's just not possible.

[Doobeedoo]

2 hours ago, porina said:

Agree with previous posts that it is probably some technical hurdle requiring it to be disabled.

 

Not up to speed recently but PBO was counted as OC last time I looked.

Nah, not really, I mean it's like a general max boost if you have proper cooling and such. I meant it more in manual OC for CPU no need with these new gens lately.

[porina]

3 hours ago, Doobeedoo said:

Nah, not really, I mean it's like a general max boost if you have proper cooling and such. I meant it more in manual OC for CPU no need with these new gens lately.

Doesn't matter what you consider overclocking is, what matters here is what AMD considers overclocking. To my understanding, PBO does count as overclocking at least as of Zen 2. If this has changed since, I'd welcome a credible reference to that effect.

[Doobeedoo]

4 minutes ago, porina said:

Doesn't matter what you consider overclocking is, what matters here is what AMD considers overclocking. To my understanding, PBO does count as overclocking at least as of Zen 2. If this has changed since, I'd welcome a credible reference to that effect.

My point is, manual OC for the 3D cache SKU even if not unlocked doesn't matter much. Because modern CPUs self boost as much as they can so manual OC may not end as high and or as PBO can boost so I see no big issue even if this chip can't be OC manually.

[porina]

Just now, Doobeedoo said:

My point is, manual OC for the 3D cache SKU even if not unlocked doesn't matter much. Because modern CPUs self boost as much as they can so manual OC may not end as high and or as PBO can boost so I see no big issue even if this chip can't be OC manually.

You suggested earlier manual OC wasn't needed if there was PBO. I'm suggesting there is no PBO either. The standard mode is Precision Boost, which IMO works well enough.

[Doobeedoo]

11 minutes ago, porina said:

You suggested earlier manual OC wasn't needed if there was PBO. I'm suggesting there is no PBO either. The standard mode is Precision Boost, which IMO works well enough.

Yeah I meant Precision Boost 2 though so it already works very good and if you can't manual OC higher in general no need to do so.