dac/amp combo, should I upgrade

[ChronicMayhem]

Hello everyone.

I’m still new to the world of better audio then big box store gaming headsets.

 

I upgraded from a gaming headset to a sennheiser 58x. I am currently using a Meizu MasterHIFI (for reference https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08H89VZKQ/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_i_9HVW4QGDQMGME18953DR)
in the USB c port on my motherboard to power my 58x and they get pretty loud I usually don’t need to go above 60%.

 

My question is, if I got something like a E10K, Schiit fulla 4, etec a different Dac/amp around the $100 area would I notice any different in sound quality or would it just be a waste of money compared to what I’m currently running?

Thank you

[da na]

You would definitely see an improvement in sound quality, but if you are just gaming on it then it won't make a huge difference as game sounds aren't super hifi - usually a bit compressed

[ChronicMayhem]

4 minutes ago, Mel0nMan said:

You would definitely see an improvement in sound quality, but if you are just gaming on it then it won't make a huge difference as game sounds aren't super hifi - usually a bit compressed

Ya I mostly play games, pretty big range (competitive fps, mmos, story diven single player sometimes) and watch YouTube. I sometimes listen to music but not that often.

If in-game sound quality won't improve then I guess it's not worth it

[GamerDude]

IF it ain't broken, don't fix it! That's my philosophy, so if you're happy enough with the sound for both gaming and music (IF the audio dongle supports all the audio codecs/formats you need), and it gets loud enough on your HD58x, then there's no need to look elsewhere.

[Raintech]

Honestly, now that you've got yourself a HD58x, which is a true audiophile grade headphone by the way, leagues better than most "gamer headphone" trash on the market, I'd think you'd gain a decent bit of audio quality adding in a desktop dac/amp combo. Not nearly as big of a step as going from non-audiophile headsets to a real audiophile headphone, but it's probably logical next step in your journey towards audiophile-ville. 

I'm not sure if those little dongles are much better than your average PC onboard DAC these days; In fact, I'd honestly try to avoid them. You say they're plugged into a USB-C port? That worries me. You see, that means your PC is outputting a Digital signal (which is what comes out of USB ports, data in the form of 1's and 0's). What that means is the dongle is therefore handling the Digital to Analogue Conversion; Read those again: Digital Analogue Conversion. DAC. Turning those 1's and 0's into a signal for your headphones.

That 100% means you're running off of that tiny dongle's DAC. I wouldn't trust it at ALL. Honestly, PC motherboard DAC's have come a long way in the past couple decades, and chances are your motherboard has a perfectly great DAC on it; A full sized, good chip on the motherboard. To instead rely on a tiny dongle's portable DAC is just incredibly sketchy. Many people report the 58x runs just fine out of their phone or PC's onboard without needing an amp to sound good, or loud. Have you tried just the onboard motherboard?

And as an owner of a phone which doesn't have a 3.5mm jack (thanks apple for starting that trend btw, I have a samsung s20 fe), I can tell you that my usb-c to 3.5mm dongle that I use with my phone sounds NOTICEABLY worse than my desktop's dac/amp setup, like jawdroppingly different; It's like someone's playing music through their phone line, like the awful elevator music companies play when you get placed on hold; but that's comparing a desktop setup to my phone dongle, even with the same IEM's used for both. And this is an expensive dongle advertised as "hifi" and "lossless" which i picked up off amazon for about 35 dollars. Just goes to show amazon pages chuck those catch words on basically any kind of turd these days. I ended up getting myself a fiio BTR5, which is far more expensive than your budget but something you can look at if you want to see what a truly decent protable dac/amp costs; Not those terrible cheapo dongles that they sell on amazon.

Volume doesn't necessarily always mean you're gettting the most out of your headphone either, even without factoring in crappy DAC's. Headphones can sound tinny and lacking bass or clarity out of a weak amp/amp less setup, even if you can push them loud enough. so adding an amp in your scenario might still be a good idea, then just letting your onboard PC motherboard's DAC handle the digital converting.

Just make sure you're never accidentally make a huge mistake with where you plug in your headphones; Like I've seen people plugging 3.5mm cables into their keyboard's RGB passthrough with piss poor shielding where they can legit hear when their RGB lights pulse. Or people who plug into their PC tower's front 3.5mm port, and that 3.5mm port has an extension cable running internally through the whole tower, straight past like 6 tower fans with barely any shielding before plugging into the motherboard. Fans are notorious for causing electrical interferance. 

For that kind of budget, there's not many dac/amp combos I can think of that would be really worth buying and keeping in terms of future proofing. As an audio-nooby myself, I can say I do highly recommend my Objective 2's. Been using it for a bit less than 2 years now; It offers supposedly "truly uncolored" sound output, which I think is really nice for starting out; You can really listen to headphones and music the way those headphones and artists intend and form accurate opinions, then add in EQ to make things fun after the fact if you want, and I totally agree after experiencing it first hand. Like seeing the world through crystal clear glasses, before adding in your own fun tints and shades later.

The Objective 2 SDAC from massdrop is pretty decent value, usually goes for about 150 usd, but it goes on sale really often. And as with most things Massdrop, its only in stock from time to time when a Drop is going on. I remember I got mine during the pre-2019 xmas sales, it was down to 120 USD, and then I got it part of a bundle with my HD6XX's for about 95 usd ontop of the headphones. You could look out for the next drop and see what the price comes to; Usually more signups on the drop the cheaper.

But the Schiit Fulla combo DAC/amp also could be worth looking into. Colors the sound which could throw off the way headphones are meant to sound, and despite being super cheap, most reviewers tend to sound quite snobby with it and say it doesn't compare well with their expensive dac/amp solutions; But obviously this is a scenario you're kind of getting what you're paying for. I personally didn't like the reviews on it, but seems like a useable budget option. Personally I found myself alot more tempted to get the Schiit Magni and Schiit Modi, which are schiit's entry level standalone amp, and standalone DAC respectively. But even a single one of those would already almost blow your whole budget. But the great thing about 2 standalones is the versatility, you could always just buy the Magni standalone amp for 99 usd RRP (according to their site, probably cheaper if you shop around), and add the schiit Modi standalone DAC later if you feel like it, but again, just the standalone amp would already offload DAC duties off to your PC's motherboard, which is probably perfectly good for the job; The idea is to stop relying on that little dongle's DAC asap.

Buying the schiit standalones should also be more future proof in the long run too; I honestly think with just the Magni amp, you would come to a very adequate stopping point where you could live without buying anymore upgrades and be happy with your current sound forever; Unless you decide you've caught the audio bug and get deeper into this expensive hobby; Once you have the schiit magni, or similar entry level amp, your current setup would be plenty decent enough to be a stopping point and you could just live with it, but at the same time, it would also be easy to upgrade and have clear upgrade paths should you decide to spend more.

[ChronicMayhem]

2 hours ago, Raintech said:

Honestly, now that you've got yourself a HD58x, which is a true audiophile grade headphone by the way, leagues better than most "gamer headphone" trash on the market, I'd think you'd gain a decent bit of audio quality adding in a desktop dac/amp combo. Not nearly as big of a step as going from non-audiophile headsets to a real audiophile headphone, but it's probably logical next step in your journey towards audiophile-ville. 

I'm not sure if those little dongles are much better than your average PC onboard DAC these days; In fact, I'd honestly try to avoid them. You say they're plugged into a USB-C port? That worries me. You see, that means your PC is outputting a Digital signal (which is what comes out of USB ports, data in the form of 1's and 0's). What that means is the dongle is therefore handling the Digital to Analogue Conversion; Read those again: Digital Analogue Conversion. DAC. Turning those 1's and 0's into a signal for your headphones.

That 100% means you're running off of that tiny dongle's DAC. I wouldn't trust it at ALL. Honestly, PC motherboard DAC's have come a long way in the past couple decades, and chances are your motherboard has a perfectly great DAC on it; A full sized, good chip on the motherboard. To instead rely on a tiny dongle's portable DAC is just incredibly sketchy. Many people report the 58x runs just fine out of their phone or PC's onboard without needing an amp to sound good, or loud. Have you tried just the onboard motherboard?

And as an owner of a phone which doesn't have a 3.5mm jack (thanks apple for starting that trend btw, I have a samsung s20 fe), I can tell you that my usb-c to 3.5mm dongle that I use with my phone sounds NOTICEABLY worse than my desktop's dac/amp setup, like jawdroppingly different; It's like someone's playing music through their phone line, like the awful elevator music companies play when you get placed on hold; but that's comparing a desktop setup to my phone dongle, even with the same IEM's used for both. And this is an expensive dongle advertised as "hifi" and "lossless" which i picked up off amazon for about 35 dollars. Just goes to show amazon pages chuck those catch words on basically any kind of turd these days. I ended up getting myself a fiio BTR5, which is far more expensive than your budget but something you can look at if you want to see what a truly decent protable dac/amp costs; Not those terrible cheapo dongles that they sell on amazon.

Volume doesn't necessarily always mean you're gettting the most out of your headphone either, even without factoring in crappy DAC's. Headphones can sound tinny and lacking bass or clarity out of a weak amp/amp less setup, even if you can push them loud enough. so adding an amp in your scenario might still be a good idea, then just letting your onboard PC motherboard's DAC handle the digital converting.

Just make sure you're never accidentally make a huge mistake with where you plug in your headphones; Like I've seen people plugging 3.5mm cables into their keyboard's RGB passthrough with piss poor shielding where they can legit hear when their RGB lights pulse. Or people who plug into their PC tower's front 3.5mm port, and that 3.5mm port has an extension cable running internally through the whole tower, straight past like 6 tower fans with barely any shielding before plugging into the motherboard. Fans are notorious for causing electrical interferance. 

For that kind of budget, there's not many dac/amp combos I can think of that would be really worth buying and keeping in terms of future proofing. As an audio-nooby myself, I can say I do highly recommend my Objective 2's. Been using it for a bit less than 2 years now; It offers supposedly "truly uncolored" sound output, which I think is really nice for starting out; You can really listen to headphones and music the way those headphones and artists intend and form accurate opinions, then add in EQ to make things fun after the fact if you want, and I totally agree after experiencing it first hand. Like seeing the world through crystal clear glasses, before adding in your own fun tints and shades later.

The Objective 2 SDAC from massdrop is pretty decent value, usually goes for about 150 usd, but it goes on sale really often. And as with most things Massdrop, its only in stock from time to time when a Drop is going on. I remember I got mine during the pre-2019 xmas sales, it was down to 120 USD, and then I got it part of a bundle with my HD6XX's for about 95 usd ontop of the headphones. You could look out for the next drop and see what the price comes to; Usually more signups on the drop the cheaper.

But the Schiit Fulla combo DAC/amp also could be worth looking into. Colors the sound which could throw off the way headphones are meant to sound, and despite being super cheap, most reviewers tend to sound quite snobby with it and say it doesn't compare well with their expensive dac/amp solutions; But obviously this is a scenario you're kind of getting what you're paying for. I personally didn't like the reviews on it, but seems like a useable budget option. Personally I found myself alot more tempted to get the Schiit Magni and Schiit Modi, which are schiit's entry level standalone amp, and standalone DAC respectively. But even a single one of those would already almost blow your whole budget. But the great thing about 2 standalones is the versatility, you could always just buy the Magni standalone amp for 99 usd RRP (according to their site, probably cheaper if you shop around), and add the schiit Modi standalone DAC later if you feel like it, but again, just the standalone amp would already offload DAC duties off to your PC's motherboard, which is probably perfectly good for the job; The idea is to stop relying on that little dongle's DAC asap.

Buying the schiit standalones should also be more future proof in the long run too; I honestly think with just the Magni amp, you would come to a very adequate stopping point where you could live without buying anymore upgrades and be happy with your current sound forever; Unless you decide you've caught the audio bug and get deeper into this expensive hobby; Once you have the schiit magni, or similar entry level amp, your current setup would be plenty decent enough to be a stopping point and you could just live with it, but at the same time, it would also be easy to upgrade and have clear upgrade paths should you decide to spend more.

I've seen people suggest the Schiit magni before, I have a pretty brand new motherboard as well. I got it last year. So maybe I can use its on board dac( actually haven't tried it) and then just get that student loan amp and I might be done? Interesting

[rice guru]

23 minutes ago, Public Nuisance said:

I've seen people suggest the Schiit magni before, I have a pretty brand new motherboard as well. I got it last year. So maybe I can use its on board dac( actually haven't tried it) and then just get that student loan amp and I might be done? Interesting

Honestly though the 58x while a good headphone won't really improve that well with more expensive gear especially amps as it's a very easy headphone to drive. Unless you plan on upgrading headphones in the future I would stick to onboard or your dongle DAC. Otherwise ymuse your existing single DAC as a dac for your magni

[Psittac]

The schiit fulla E is a worthy improvement over onboard audio, it's clearer sounding and fuller too.  The dongle you have, I don't know how much of an improvement it is.

 

There is more to be had than volume and the fulla would offer improvement for sure.  The real question is, will it be enough improvement for your use case to justify the purchase.

 

The audio world is full of diminishing returns where you have to determine if it's worth the investment or not.  There is always more to be had though.

[ChronicMayhem]

4 hours ago, Psittac said:

The schiit fulla E is a worthy improvement over onboard audio, it's clearer sounding and fuller too.  The dongle you have, I don't know how much of an improvement it is.

 

There is more to be had than volume and the fulla would offer improvement for sure.  The real question is, will it be enough improvement for your use case to justify the purchase.

 

The audio world is full of diminishing returns where you have to determine if it's worth the investment or not.  There is always more to be had though.

whats the difference between the fulla E and fulla 4?

[pas008]

use your onboard

and if gaming is your primary use, then use hesuvi for its virtual surround sound

[Raintech]

Yeah I want to stress that your headphone is responsible for the majority of your audio improvement, assuming you're not using absolute garbage audio files.

You'll never experience quite as big of an audio jump as going from cheap gamer headphones, to a audiophile headphone ever again. So keep that in mind as you make all future purchases, to put the audio gains we're talking about into perspective. 

 

If you are not planning on buying other headphones, any gains from a DAC or amp for purely your 58x would be small, so keep in mind the cost to performance gains here have steep diminishing returns. Especially the DAC, many people don't even recommend a DAC until you're above 1000 dollars total invested in the hobby. 

 

The main advantage of getting an amp is that you'll have a lot more choices in the future, as it let's you buy a greater variety of headphones. So from a beginner audio collector perspective, an amp is an investment for the future, whilst giving you peace of mind in the present. There's alot to be said for putting yourself at ease with your current gear and knowing you have a setup that'll work with the majority of future headphones. 

 

In any case, I would experiment with plugging your 58x straight into your motherboard's 3.5mm rear io slot and see if you like the audio from that better than your dongle; And compare the volume; The claims that dongle has an amp in it seems a little far fetched to me, or at the least it's probably only marginally stronger than most PC's motherboards. I personally have an inherant distrust of most portable dongles of that form factor, and wouldn't put it past companies to put this kind of this stuff on their pages as pure marketting BS. Plus, I just don't think it makes much sense to use a cheap, little portable solution like those dongles when your PC has fully fledged, perfectly modern, full sized hardware available.

[Psittac]

4 hours ago, Public Nuisance said:

whats the difference between the fulla E and fulla 4?

It's the dac chip they use.  A major chip maker had their factory burn down a few years ago so a huge portion of dac manufacturers were affected by needing to revamp their products.  I'm pretty sure the Fulla E is the only one on schiit's website, not even sure where you would get the 4.

 

2 hours ago, Raintech said:

Yeah I want to stress that your headphone is responsible for the majority of your audio improvement, assuming you're not using absolute garbage audio files.

You'll never experience quite as big of an audio jump as going from cheap gamer headphones, to a audiophile headphone ever again. So keep that in mind as you make all future purchases, to put the audio gains we're talking about into perspective. 

 

If you are not planning on buying other headphones, any gains from a DAC or amp for purely your 58x would be small, so keep in mind the cost to performance gains here have steep diminishing returns. Especially the DAC, many people don't even recommend a DAC until you're above 1000 dollars total invested in the hobby.

 

I agree to an extent, the headphone is the biggest factor by far but it's easy to ruin some headphones by powering them with a subpar source.  Even low end headphones can get a huge benefit from a dac/amp.  I tried the shp9500 with my onboard audio and the treble was piercing and fatiguing, couldn't stand them for more than 10 minutes.  When I got the Fulla E it was able to tame the shrill highs to a point that I could appreciate the headphones.  It didn't make them sound like a different headphone, just cleaner.  (On the flip side I've done short tests with other headphones with onboard and honestly your statement is probably true)  Though I'm coming at this from a hobbyist perspective not a one and done solution, I have well over $1k invested.  I would argue with the exact number given that a decent dac/amp like the fiio k3 or schiit fulla can be had for just over $100.  But I do agree that spending a higher dollar amount mainly gives you room to expand.

[ChronicMayhem]

On 2/10/2022 at 4:17 PM, Raintech said:

Yeah I want to stress that your headphone is responsible for the majority of your audio improvement, assuming you're not using absolute garbage audio files.

You'll never experience quite as big of an audio jump as going from cheap gamer headphones, to a audiophile headphone ever again. So keep that in mind as you make all future purchases, to put the audio gains we're talking about into perspective. 

 

If you are not planning on buying other headphones, any gains from a DAC or amp for purely your 58x would be small, so keep in mind the cost to performance gains here have steep diminishing returns. Especially the DAC, many people don't even recommend a DAC until you're above 1000 dollars total invested in the hobby. 

 

The main advantage of getting an amp is that you'll have a lot more choices in the future, as it let's you buy a greater variety of headphones. So from a beginner audio collector perspective, an amp is an investment for the future, whilst giving you peace of mind in the present. There's alot to be said for putting yourself at ease with your current gear and knowing you have a setup that'll work with the majority of future headphones. 

 

In any case, I would experiment with plugging your 58x straight into your motherboard's 3.5mm rear io slot and see if you like the audio from that better than your dongle; And compare the volume; The claims that dongle has an amp in it seems a little far fetched to me, or at the least it's probably only marginally stronger than most PC's motherboards. I personally have an inherant distrust of most portable dongles of that form factor, and wouldn't put it past companies to put this kind of this stuff on their pages as pure marketting BS. Plus, I just don't think it makes much sense to use a cheap, little portable solution like those dongles when your PC has fully fledged, perfectly modern, full sized hardware available.

So I did this last night and the dongle gets a lot louder than my onboard audio 3.5mm. Maybe since it's usbc it puts out more power possibly

[rice guru]

19 hours ago, Public Nuisance said:

So I did this last night and the dongle gets a lot louder than my onboard audio 3.5mm. Maybe since it's usbc it puts out more power possibly

It pretty much is the reason. For perspective the fiio e10k just uses usb power and has more power than pretty much every motherboard. The Meizu is a good dac and the hd58x is a good headphone that really doesn't demand much from a power standpoint.

[CTR640]

The Fiio E10K has identical sound as the onboard audio like the Realtek ALC1150. For 100$ it's pretty much overpriced. Just add about 50$ and the iFi ZEN is a better one. But if not for exploring the world of audio, then there is not much of a reason to get another dac/amp. I would say, stick to what you have now and if you're happy with, don't look back.

 

And regarding DAC/AMPs in the 1k$ and up digits... Well, I can't say much about that but the dac/amps in my sign are €670 both and they both offer very good sound and tames down the sibilance and unpleasant treble. There is no reason to spend over 1k$ for a single one unless audio has become your audio to explore more and you know which kind of sound you want/like.

[ChronicMayhem]

Since this is going to be used for games as it's primary purpose and my understanding is game tracks are sometimes not mixed well that's why I was hoping to stay below $200, if I was huge I to music then ya a different story

[CTR640]

1 hour ago, Public Nuisance said:

Since this is going to be used for games as it's primary purpose and my understanding is game tracks are sometimes not mixed well that's why I was hoping to stay below $200, if I was huge I to music then ya a different story

What do you mean? There are great sounding headphones? Or were you talking about the dac/amps? 

[ChronicMayhem]

2 minutes ago, CTR640 said:

What do you mean? There are great sounding headphones? Or were you talking about the dac/amps? 

I mean I'd like to keep the dac/amp price under $200

[CTR640]

51 minutes ago, Public Nuisance said:

I mean I'd like to keep the dac/amp price under $200

If you're still looking for one: iFi ZEN DAC. Not the CAN version. It should be under $200.

[rikitikitavi]

On 2/16/2022 at 7:19 PM, CTR640 said:

If you're still looking for one: iFi ZEN DAC. Not the CAN version. It should be under $200.

Unless OP's built-in or current dac is creates weird noise or smth, I doubt iFi Zen Dac would improve much or anything at all.

 

I'm using Sennheiser 560s, and as far as I understand it is very similar to 58x in terms of requirements... so I'm returning my recently purchased Zen Dac v2, since I can't find ANY noticeable difference in sound between it and my built-in amp/dac.

[CTR640]

8 hours ago, rikitikitavi said:

Unless OP's built-in or current dac is creates weird noise or smth, I doubt iFi Zen Dac would improve much or anything at all.

 

I'm using Sennheiser 560s, and as far as I understand it is very similar to 58x in terms of requirements... so I'm returning my recently purchased Zen Dac v2, since I can't find ANY noticeable difference in sound between it and my built-in amp/dac.

You're right. If OP sticks to one headphone and not planning to upgrade headphones, there is not much reason.